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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:05 AM   #1
DaGrandMastah
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Subler/MP4Tools Help

OK...so I know there are workarounds for playing DTS on Apple TV but I'm looking to just convert the file over. My question is....I had a DTS Audio file that I converted to Dolby Pro Logic ii and the file ends up as AAC 2 Channel. Alternatively, the same file converted using AAC Multi Channel gave me an AAC 6 channel audio file.

Which is better? What's the best way to convert DTS to a Apple TV Friendly audio format while sacrificing the least amount of audio quality?

Last edited by DaGrandMastah; Dec 29, 2012 at 10:04 PM.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 08:27 PM   #2
Pyromonkey83
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Originally Posted by DaGrandMastah View Post
OK...so I know there are workarounds for playing DTS on Apple TV but I'm looking to just convert the file over. My question is....I had a DTS Audio file that I converted to Dolby Pro Logic ii and the file ends up as AAC 2 Channel. Alternatively, the same file converted using AAC Multi Channel gave me an AAC 6 channel audio file.

Which is better? What's the best way to convert DTS to a Apple TV Friendly audio format while sacrificing the least amount of audio quality?
The Dolby Pro Logic is a faux-surround audio file. It is only stereo audio, but has built in algorithms to try and reproduce surround sound with compatible receivers. This is good for small files, but it is not true surround.

The 6-channel audio file is true Surround Sound. This file format will encode each individual audio track for each speaker in the same fashion that DTS will. This is the best quality format that the ATV will support without ridiculous workarounds and is the only true surround sound you can get (again without ridiculous workarounds).

The best thing to actually do with your rips is to have both. This will allow you to play it on any system and be fully supported.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 08:54 PM   #3
dynaflash
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Originally Posted by DaGrandMastah View Post
Alternatively, the same file converted using AAC Multi Channel gave me an AAC 6 channel audio file.
The AppleTV cannot play back aac discrete 6 channel, it gets downmixed into a strange 3.0. If using aac I'd stick with the DPL2.

Best would be to take the DTS to AC3 5.1 Dolby which as is well documented the AppleTV can pass thru to your receiver properly.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:19 PM   #4
Pyromonkey83
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Whoops... Dyna above is right. I wasn't paying enough attention to the AAC specification.

Subler cannot mux into AC3, so you will have to use a different program (Handbrake is a great example) to make the AC3 audio file. You can either switch to have it do the full encode or turn the video settings to something ridiculously low and just make the audio track. Then you can mux the files together at the end using subler if you want to go that route.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 09:31 AM   #5
DaGrandMastah
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Whoops... Dyna above is right. I wasn't paying enough attention to the AAC specification.

Subler cannot mux into AC3, so you will have to use a different program (Handbrake is a great example) to make the AC3 audio file. You can either switch to have it do the full encode or turn the video settings to something ridiculously low and just make the audio track. Then you can mux the files together at the end using subler if you want to go that route.
Thanks for the info to both of you. So to be clear.....if I want to use Subler only then I'm looking at stereo sound since Apple TV can't play 6 channel.

So which setting would I use on Handbrake? I see AC3 (ffmpeg) under Codec but mixdown has Dolby Surround, Dolby Pro Logic 2 and 6 channel discrete.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 10:48 AM   #6
dynaflash
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So which setting would I use on Handbrake? I see AC3 (ffmpeg) under Codec but mixdown has Dolby Surround, Dolby Pro Logic 2 and 6 channel discrete.
Click the Devices > AppleTV. Preset the first track will be aac 2.0 DPL2 and the second track will be AC3 5.1 DD (also known as 6 channel discreet). It is specifically this way because it works perfect for the AppleTV regardless of whether you have the sound hooked up to the optical or hdmi etc. Thats why the preset is setup that way. Funny that.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:22 PM   #7
DaGrandMastah
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Click the Devices > AppleTV. Preset the first track will be aac 2.0 DPL2 and the second track will be AC3 5.1 DD (also known as 6 channel discreet). It is specifically this way because it works perfect for the AppleTV regardless of whether you have the sound hooked up to the optical or hdmi etc. Thats why the preset is setup that way. Funny that.
Perfect. So one last question.

That sounds like it'll give me 2 audio streams. Am I importing both audio streams into the newly muxed file in Subler or am I only importing the AC3 5.1 dd track?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:48 PM   #8
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Perfect. So one last question.

That sounds like it'll give me 2 audio streams. Am I importing both audio streams into the newly muxed file in Subler or am I only importing the AC3 5.1 dd track?
Both. That is what you want. Understand that Subler is written by a great HB dev ritsuka. It will carry through, don't over think this part. That audio track setup exactly mirrors the iTunes HD stuff. I have spent a bit of time in my day getting it to work right. Just let it rip !

Btw, on mac you can tell HB in preferences to send the file to subler if you want right after encoding. Makes things a bit more seamless ... just sayin'.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 03:56 PM   #9
Menneisyys2
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Originally Posted by Pyromonkey83 View Post
Whoops... Dyna above is right. I wasn't paying enough attention to the AAC specification.

Subler cannot mux into AC3, so you will have to use a different program (Handbrake is a great example) to make the AC3 audio file. You can either switch to have it do the full encode or turn the video settings to something ridiculously low and just make the audio track. Then you can mux the files together at the end using subler if you want to go that route.
Alternatively, use MP4Tools for the DTS -> AC3 addition, along with the AAC conversion. Then, no manual track editing will be necessary and you can do everything in one program only.

I think I've written a complete tutorial on this but can't find it now (I'll need to make my tutorials more organized, in, say, a tree or at least with keywords). Basically, what you need to do is very similar to how MKVTools is configured. See http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1495607 for the last installment of that series.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:39 PM   #10
DaGrandMastah
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Both. That is what you want. Understand that Subler is written by a great HB dev ritsuka. It will carry through, don't over think this part. That audio track setup exactly mirrors the iTunes HD stuff. I have spent a bit of time in my day getting it to work right. Just let it rip !

Btw, on mac you can tell HB in preferences to send the file to subler if you want right after encoding. Makes things a bit more seamless ... just sayin'.
(amazing how 1 last question always turns into multiple last questions)

Ok....so when I import it into subler I want to import BOTH streams (aac 2.0 DPL2 and the AC3 5.1 DD) which one should be the primary stream in subler when muxing? So this will basically ensure that the file plays with surround sound when hooked up through optical and through regular speakers when not?

Thanks alot for all the help btw. Been extremely helpful to learn all this stuff. I would have been doing it wrong this entire time otherwise.

(I was never able to get mkv files to open in MP4tools)
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:47 PM   #11
mic j
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Originally Posted by DaGrandMastah View Post
(amazing how 1 last question always turns into multiple last questions)

Ok....so when I import it into subler I want to import BOTH streams (aac 2.0 DPL2 and the AC3 5.1 DD) which one should be the primary stream in subler when muxing? So this will basically ensure that the file plays with surround sound when hooked up through optical and through regular speakers when not?

Thanks alot for all the help btw. Been extremely helpful to learn all this stuff. I would have been doing it wrong this entire time otherwise.

(I was never able to get mkv files to open in MP4tools)
Tracks should be:
Video (checked)
AAC Dolby Digital Prologic (checked)
AC3 (unchecked)

Odd that your mkv would not open in mp4tools. It will be faster than HB for what you are trying to do (just generate 2 audio tracks fro an mkv dts source). Did you use the new version 3.2.1?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 06:00 PM   #12
DaGrandMastah
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Originally Posted by mic j View Post
Tracks should be:
Video (checked)
AAC Dolby Digital Prologic (checked)
AC3 (unchecked)

Odd that your mkv would not open in mp4tools. It will be faster than HB for what you are trying to do (just generate 2 audio tracks fro an mkv dts source). Did you use the new version 3.2.1?
Yeah I just realized that I need to use mkvtools for this. Is the below correct for what I'm trying to do? Then I would just move the audio files over to subler to mux it all together?

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Old Dec 28, 2012, 07:54 PM   #13
Robsta2142
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Originally Posted by dynaflash View Post
Both. That is what you want. Understand that Subler is written by a great HB dev ritsuka. It will carry through, don't over think this part. That audio track setup exactly mirrors the iTunes HD stuff. I have spent a bit of time in my day getting it to work right. Just let it rip !

Btw, on mac you can tell HB in preferences to send the file to subler if you want right after encoding. Makes things a bit more seamless ... just sayin'.
Didn't know about being able to send the file straight to Subler, thanks for sharing!
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 09:10 PM   #14
mic j
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Yeah I just realized that I need to use mkvtools for this. Is the below correct for what I'm trying to do? Then I would just move the audio files over to subler to mux it all together?

Image
Yes, you are correct. I was thinking that mp4tools would do it but it's mkvtools. You screen shot looks good to me. Give it a go.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:58 AM   #15
Menneisyys2
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Yes, you are correct. I was thinking that mp4tools would do it but it's mkvtools. You screen shot looks good to me. Give it a go.
If you want to remux MKV's to MP4's, you should go for MP4Tools. MKVTools is for editing / outputting MKV's but not for remuxing.

BTW, I've just checked the latest beta (released a week ago) of MP4Tools with a DTS-only MKV (the one at http://www.auby.no/files/video_tests...s_monsters.mkv ). The automatic mode with a combined 2-ch AAC + AC3 m4v output worked just fine.

As it outputs M4V's natively, there's no need to pass its output to Subler either.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 11:02 AM   #16
mic j
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Originally Posted by Menneisyys2 View Post
If you want to remux MKV's to MP4's, you should go for MP4Tools. MKVTools is for editing / outputting MKV's but not for remuxing.

BTW, I've just checked the latest beta (released a week ago) of MP4Tools with a DTS-only MKV (the one at http://www.auby.no/files/video_tests...s_monsters.mkv ). The automatic mode with a combined 2-ch AAC + AC3 output worked just fine.
I thought that is what I had done in the past but I also tried to add an mkv to mp4tools (ver 3.2) and it rejected it. Same as the OP experienced. So I though I might have gotten my wires switched. I will have to check again.

Update: just tried again and it opened my mkv's just fine. Not sure what was going on before. This is a good app with Emmgun putting good effort to support it. Think I'll support him.
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Last edited by mic j; Dec 29, 2012 at 11:06 AM. Reason: update
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 11:07 AM   #17
Menneisyys2
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I thought that is what I had done in the past but I also tried to add an mkv to mp4tools (ver 3.2) and it rejected it. Same as the OP experienced. So I though I might have gotten my wires switched. I will have to check again.

Update: just tried again and it opened my mkv's just fine. Not sure what was going on before. This is a good app with Emmgun putting good effort to support it. Think I'll support him.
Might be a problem with 3.2? I haven't tested it as I've always been using (and recommending) the beta versions only.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 11:13 AM   #18
mic j
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Might be a problem with 3.2? I haven't tested it as I've always been using (and recommending) the beta versions only.
Emmgun posted on here the other day that mp4tools is out of beta with version 3.2. He does still have a different beta version that he is looking for some "power users" to try out a few new items he is developing for the app.

I don't think the problem was 3.2, I think it was probably me.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 11:39 AM   #19
DaGrandMastah
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I am still unable to load hte file into mp4tools. It will not accept any mov file. I'm only using the trial version as I dont' want to pay the $6 unless I know that it works for mkv's as well.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 11:43 AM   #20
mic j
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I am still unable to load hte file into mp4tools. It will not accept any mov file. I'm only using the trial version as I dont' want to pay the $6 unless I know that it works for mkv's as well.
Is it a mov or an mkv file?
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 01:17 PM   #21
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I am still unable to load hte file into mp4tools. It will not accept any mov file. I'm only using the trial version as I dont' want to pay the $6 unless I know that it works for mkv's as well.
Rename the mov extension to m4v.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 05:49 PM   #22
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Is it a mov or an mkv file?
It's an mkv file....sorry that was a typo.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 05:58 PM   #23
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It's an mkv file....sorry that was a typo.
It should work in mp4tools, even if unregistered. Make sure you have version 3.2.1. Then try and add it. You can't drag and drop in the unregistered version, so you will need to add it using the file menu. If you can't add it, there might be something wrong with the file, so try some others.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 06:53 PM   #24
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It should work in mp4tools, even if unregistered. Make sure you have version 3.2.1. Then try and add it. You can't drag and drop in the unregistered version, so you will need to add it using the file menu. If you can't add it, there might be something wrong with the file, so try some others.
Wow I just figured out why it wasn't working. I had it on edit tracks (which apparently it can't do). I just switched it to mp4 and now it added them. I didn't touch that originally since it's how the program opened up. So a little help on this portion.

What do i do if I want to remux this file so that it plays on my apple tv? I selected Apple tv 3 as a device so I'm assuming I can pass thru, switch it to ac3 5.1 and add 2-ch track. The only other question I would have is what bit rate to use for the audio file?

Also, once the file is output from MP4Tools can I throw it into Subler to update the metadata in it?

Last edited by DaGrandMastah; Dec 29, 2012 at 09:44 PM.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:03 PM   #25
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Crap. now I think I'm more confused then ever. MP4Tools isn't making any sense.

I just reuxed 5 gb file and I ended up with a 349 mb m4v. I set it so the video was pass thru, the audio was ac5 5.1 and add 2 channel and that's it.

I guess I just don't understand how this program works. I'm obviously doing something wrong.


Last edited by DaGrandMastah; Dec 30, 2012 at 01:03 AM.
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