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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:54 AM   #1
ikev85
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Apple's preliminary Proxy Statement - PRSI spin-off thread

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This is the PSRI spin-off thread for the front page thread discussing Apple's preliminary Proxy Statement.

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all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.

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Old Dec 27, 2012, 10:05 AM   #2
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all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.
Yes, however these retail employees wouldn't have their jobs if it wasn't for this group of execs.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 10:21 AM   #3
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all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.
The starting wage is $9 and the average is $11.64.

They're on the shop floor, just like any other multi-billion pound company. Walmart, Tesco etc.. I don't see why they should get paid more just because it's Apple.

If you're good at your job and stick with it you can jump on the 'Genius' bandwagon, who's starting salary is $32,000 up to $49,000 and beyond.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 10:22 AM   #4
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all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.
Yep and the $9/hour people can do his job. \sarcasm

The retail people get paid the going rate for the job they are performing and what makes them deserving of a higher rate ? If other companies paid $100/hour for a similar job, Apple would also be paying $100/hour. If you want more than $9/hour, get a degree in an area with high demand and put in some effort. Too many people think that they are deserving and that other people owe them.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 10:33 AM   #5
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all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.
Capitalism has nothing to do with it. Pay is commensurate with skill/responsibility level.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 10:34 AM   #6
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all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.
You do realize that every one of those retail employees has the opportunity to be a Tim Cook if they want? No one is forcing them to work in retail for $9/hr or whatever th going wage is.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:07 AM   #7
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You do realize that every one of those retail employees has the opportunity to be a Tim Cook if they want? No one is forcing them to work in retail for $9/hr or whatever th going wage is.
Funny reasoning. Don't you think that nearly everyone would want to be Tim Cook? Do you think anyone would prefer to work for poverty wages?
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:34 AM   #8
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Funny reasoning. Don't you think that nearly everyone would want to be Tim Cook? Do you think anyone would prefer to work for poverty wages?
I can tell you I wouldn't want to be Tim Cook or any other CEO. I don't care hw much they get paid. But the fact is if someone wants it the opportunity is there. And if other retailers are paying more per hour than Apple I'm sure just about any Apple retail employee could find a job at one of these higher paying retailers.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:17 PM   #9
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all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.
$9/hr is pretty decent for retail.

What would you have them pay?

Out of touch.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:18 PM   #10
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I can tell you I wouldn't want to be Tim Cook or any other CEO. I don't care hw much they get paid. But the fact is if someone wants it the opportunity is there. And if other retailers are paying more per hour than Apple I'm sure just about any Apple retail employee could find a job at one of these higher paying retailers.
Sure it is. You want it, you got it.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ikev85 View Post
all whilst paying their retail employees $9/hr

Thanks capitalism.

out of touch.
Uhhh, try $11.82/hr average. Which is significantly higher than most retail sales.

Best Buy - $9.72
Target - $9.00
Walmart - $9.00

Out of touch
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:43 PM   #12
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Uhhh, try $11.82/hr average. Which is significantly higher than most retail sales.

Best Buy - $9.72
Target - $9.00
Walmart - $9.00

Out of touch
This means Apple pays its lowest rate workers 30% higher than other large companies listed. This is not insignificant. And could be applied all the way to the higest levels, possibly making someone like Tim Cook underpaid compared to CEO's of those other companies. Of course he is new to the position and I am sure his compensation will increase if he maintains Apple's growth.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:10 PM   #13
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This means Apple pays its lowest rate workers 30% higher than other large companies listed. This is not insignificant.
You realize I hope that working 40 hours a week at these wages adds up to less than $25k gross per year, and this assumes a person can get 40 hours a week. Usually they can't -- full-time work in retail is typically not available, as the retailers maximize part-timers to keep benefit expenses down. These are basically dead-end, burnout, poverty wage jobs with almost no opportunity for advancement. It is hardly comforting to know that Apple is only one of the best of the worst.

This hasn't got much to do with what Apple's top execs are paid, but it does serve as yet another example of how the distribution of wealth has migrated over the past 30-40 years. Apple can't be expected to fix this problem, at least not all by themselves -- but just the same, it is not something to be treated as good and normal, let alone, celebrated.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 06:52 PM   #14
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You realize I hope that working 40 hours a week at these wages adds up to less than $25k gross per year, and this assumes a person can get 40 hours a week. Usually they can't -- full-time work in retail is typically not available, as the retailers maximize part-timers to keep benefit expenses down. These are basically dead-end, burnout, poverty wage jobs with almost no opportunity for advancement. It is hardly comforting to know that Apple is only one of the best of the worst.

This hasn't got much to do with what Apple's top execs are paid, but it does serve as yet another example of how the distribution of wealth has migrated over the past 30-40 years. Apple can't be expected to fix this problem, at least not all by themselves -- but just the same, it is not something to be treated as good and normal, let alone, celebrated.
You are generalizing all retail. Apple retail is one of the most highly sought after retail sales positions in the US. They are also one of the most fun places to work in the retail industry and certainly in consumer electronics retail. I have many friends who have worked at Apple retail stores and they love it! They have advanced into management quite frequently and have better job security than anyone else I know. Most of them have worked there for 5+ years. None of them are burnt out. They are my most active and healthy friends; physically, socially and emotionally. None of them are living at poverty levels of any kind. In fact most of them have decided to go back to school for more education.

You make one of the best places to work (for the average high school educated person) in America sound like the Great Depression.

Good job Negative Nancy.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 07:20 PM   #15
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You realize I hope that working 40 hours a week at these wages adds up to less than $25k gross per year, and this assumes a person can get 40 hours a week. Usually they can't -- full-time work in retail is typically not available, as the retailers maximize part-timers to keep benefit expenses down. These are basically dead-end, burnout, poverty wage jobs with almost no opportunity for advancement. It is hardly comforting to know that Apple is only one of the best of the worst.

This hasn't got much to do with what Apple's top execs are paid, but it does serve as yet another example of how the distribution of wealth has migrated over the past 30-40 years. Apple can't be expected to fix this problem, at least not all by themselves -- but just the same, it is not something to be treated as good and normal, let alone, celebrated.
You know you are talking about retail correct? One of the most easiest entry level jobs to get, where most people get their first jobs, not because its sought after, however I wouldn't mind working in a Apple Store, especially if its more then I currently make and I am by no means inpoverished, not in the Charlie Bucket, 4 family members in a bed eating cabbage soup every night way.

Your feeling what the rest of the world has felt about America. You I am sure, talk of the 1%, but I guarantee you, you never consider your the 1% when it comes to the entire world.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:49 PM   #16
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You are generalizing all retail. Apple retail is one of the most highly sought after retail sales positions in the US. They are also one of the most fun places to work in the retail industry and certainly in consumer electronics retail. I have many friends who have worked at Apple retail stores and they love it! They have advanced into management quite frequently and have better job security than anyone else I know. Most of them have worked there for 5+ years. None of them are burnt out. They are my most active and healthy friends; physically, socially and emotionally. None of them are living at poverty levels of any kind. In fact most of them have decided to go back to school for more education.

You make one of the best places to work (for the average high school educated person) in America sound like the Great Depression.

Good job Negative Nancy.
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Originally Posted by DrDomVonDoom View Post
You know you are talking about retail correct? One of the most easiest entry level jobs to get, where most people get their first jobs, not because its sought after, however I wouldn't mind working in a Apple Store, especially if its more then I currently make and I am by no means inpoverished, not in the Charlie Bucket, 4 family members in a bed eating cabbage soup every night way.

Your feeling what the rest of the world has felt about America. You I am sure, talk of the 1%, but I guarantee you, you never consider your the 1% when it comes to the entire world.
None of which responded to a single thing I actually said. I can represent my opinions entirely by myself, thank you. Anyhow, some interesting reading, for the open minded:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/bu...anted=all&_r=0
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:49 AM   #17
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This hasn't got much to do with what Apple's top execs are paid, but it does serve as yet another example of how the distribution of wealth has migrated over the past 30-40 years. Apple can't be expected to fix this problem, at least not all by themselves -- but just the same, it is not something to be treated as good and normal, let alone, celebrated.
According to BLS statistics, the disparity in the distribution of wealth hasn't migrated much because of hourly retail wages. Today's (well, June, 2012) retail trade non-supervisory average hourly earnings are only 7% less in constant dollars than they were in June of 1982, thirty years ago.

The increase in income disparity is far more attributable to the highly compensated generating far more income than before, mostly because of incentive pay in the form of equity-based compensation, and because of investment returns (over that same 30 year period the Dow is up some 1200%).

in other words, it's not so much that the poor are getting a little more poor, but that the rich are getting a lot more rich.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:16 AM   #18
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With the disaster that is Maps, the abomination that is iOS 6, and all the other shoddy products, its a miracle that Apple is still in business.
Naw, 5 more years at a minimum.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 10:59 AM   #19
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According to BLS statistics, the disparity in the distribution of wealth hasn't migrated much because of hourly retail wages. Today's (well, June, 2012) retail trade non-supervisory average hourly earnings are only 7% less in constant dollars than they were in June of 1982, thirty years ago.

The increase in income disparity is far more attributable to the highly compensated generating far more income than before, mostly because of incentive pay in the form of equity-based compensation, and because of investment returns (over that same 30 year period the Dow is up some 1200%).

in other words, it's not so much that the poor are getting a little more poor, but that the rich are getting a lot more rich.
"Only" 7% is real downward mobility. The other part of this story is that the numbers of higher-wage jobs in manufacturing have shrunk substantially during this period and the lower-wage service jobs have absorbed much of this employment. This tandem of forces has shifted the U.S. from being one of the most economically mobile populations in the world 35 years ago, to one of the least mobile today. This is a very real, and well-documented change in the workforce. The reality should not be ignored or glossed over.

We should ask ourselves how companies like Apple can avail themselves of a steady stream of college graduates to staff their retail stores. Instead of taking career-path jobs in the professions in which they were educated, they are often forced to spend several years working in a low-paid, dead-end retail environment that contributes nothing to their future earnings capacity. I realize that this has become the new normal for the current generation but they should know that it hasn't always been this way.

I was thinking of my first job out of college. It was in my profession. As a job it wasn't great (it sucked actually) but it paid more in actual dollars (in 1979) than what Apple pays their store employees today, so that would be probably twice as much in constant dollars. Working in a chosen profession was the expectation of college graduates then. I guess it just isn't anymore; but I can't see how it is good thing that so many young people have lowered their expectations this much.

I hate to think what this means for the future, especially when I see so many people not only accepting but defending the new status quo.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:59 PM   #20
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"Only" 7% is real downward mobility. The other part of this story is that the numbers of higher-wage jobs in manufacturing have shrunk substantially during this period and the lower-wage service jobs have absorbed much of this employment. This tandem of forces has shifted the U.S. from being one of the most economically mobile populations in the world 35 years ago, to one of the least mobile today. This is a very real, and well-documented change in the workforce. The reality should not be ignored or glossed over.

We should ask ourselves how companies like Apple can avail themselves of a steady stream of college graduates to staff their retail stores. Instead of taking career-path jobs in the professions in which they were educated, they are often forced to spend several years working in a low-paid, dead-end retail environment that contributes nothing to their future earnings capacity. I realize that this has become the new normal for the current generation but they should know that it hasn't always been this way.

I was thinking of my first job out of college. It was in my profession. As a job it wasn't great (it sucked actually) but it paid more in actual dollars (in 1979) than what Apple pays their store employees today, so that would be probably twice as much in constant dollars. Working in a chosen profession was the expectation of college graduates then. I guess it just isn't anymore; but I can't see how it is good thing that so many young people have lowered their expectations this much.

I hate to think what this means for the future, especially when I see so many people not only accepting but defending the new status quo.
This is a big problem Americans have lowered their expectations in regards to everything..
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:20 PM   #21
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"Only" 7% is real downward mobility. The other part of this story is that the numbers of higher-wage jobs in manufacturing have shrunk substantially during this period and the lower-wage service jobs have absorbed much of this employment. This tandem of forces has shifted the U.S. from being one of the most economically mobile populations in the world 35 years ago, to one of the least mobile today. This is a very real, and well-documented change in the workforce. The reality should not be ignored or glossed over.

We should ask ourselves how companies like Apple can avail themselves of a steady stream of college graduates to staff their retail stores. Instead of taking career-path jobs in the professions in which they were educated, they are often forced to spend several years working in a low-paid, dead-end retail environment that contributes nothing to their future earnings capacity. I realize that this has become the new normal for the current generation but they should know that it hasn't always been this way....

I hate to think what this means for the future, especially when I see so many people not only accepting but defending the new status quo.
I agree. We all need to recognize that the disappearance of relatively well-paying union manufacturing jobs has deprived our hard-working but non-accademically-inclined "C" students of a reasonable opportunity to build the middle-class life their parents did. Instead, these job seekers shift the supply curve for retail floor workers rightward, contributing to that 7% erosion.

Many of those who would have been happy and productive in factory jobs, construction, and other forms of skilled and semi-skilled labor find their job prospects bleak, and they sometimes seek success by incurring tens of thousands of dollars of debt to attend lightly-regarded colleges where they are often no more happy or successful than they were in high school. Even those who manage to graduate are not readily finding the opportunities they sought, while those who fail find themselves saddled with impossible debts that are not dischargeable in bankruptcy and no job. Recovery from the current recession will help, but not nearly enough to call the problem solved.

Since it is unlikely that our high school students will ever all be above average, we need to find useful and productive jobs that provide a reasonable standard of living for everyone who wants to work. If we can't we risk becoming like the middle-classless countries many of our ancestors fled in favor of a land of opportunity. Whether in a flatter world of global and barrier-free competition we can create enough such jobs is the single most important question our economy and our society face. Fiscal cliffs, deficits, public debt, and tax policy pale in significance next to this overarching issue. It's hard to imagine there's an easy solution, but it's impossible to make any progress while so many fail to see the problem.

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