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Old Dec 29, 2012, 03:57 PM   #51
dukebound85
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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Because that's how it works here. One more time- don't like it? Don't visit. Pretty simple. And yes, it IS customary and expected. I think I know my own country- thanks.

Servers and bartenders here do not even make minimum wage. So you not tipping is considered extremely rude.



Then stay out of restaurants and bars.
That's the same logic as if you don't like it, move......

Tipping, to me, is for good service. I do it to express my gratitude, not to fulfill expectations. I am very much against the mindset that it is expected no matter how the service is.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 04:08 PM   #52
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I live in Central EU and I do not have any problems with tipping. It just seems to me like stupid idea to tip everytime I buy something in a bar/restaurant. Tabs are pretty common here. Yesterday I and friend were spending time in halft bar/half restaurant. We ordered tea, caffee, beer and some biscuits. It was automatically on our tab. At the end we were paying 3,50€ and we gave 3,50€ because we had exactaly. Some days ago it was 3,60€ and we gave 4€ and let 0,40€ as tip. It just works. Of course when you are in restaurant and paying 20€ (and you are happy with service) you give +-5€ as tip. It is their bonus to ACTUAL wage. And they are not expecting you to give it. Sometimes when we have to pay 30€ for lunch we give exactly 30€, sometimes 33€ or 35€. Better tips are after lunch or at evening. I normally see people tipping 5€ for 5€ bill. They are happy, we are happy and there are no problems. I think that American tipping system is ridicilous, tip which is meant to be something voluntary and more important, to give your opinion about service. Tipping even when you are not happy is unlogical.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 04:19 PM   #53
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If you don't like it, please stay out of the US. You either abide by the customs of the country you visit, or stay home.
I don't think you are in any position to tell people where and what to do. You (and your country) need to take in a bit of criticism. Me and people from where I grew up are constantly harassed, humiliated and searched in your lovely airports. Despite that utter rubbish and lack of basic human decency (and intelligence), I continue to tell my friends that Americans are generally nice and very friendly people.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 04:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
That's the same logic as if you don't like it, move......

Tipping, to me, is for good service. I do it to express my gratitude, not to fulfill expectations. I am very much against the mindset that it is expected no matter how the service is.
Who said anything bout tipping for bad service? Quit putting words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Compile 'em all View Post
I don't think you are in any position to tell people where and what to do. You (and your country) need to take in a bit of criticism. Me and people from where I grew up are constantly harassed, humiliated and searched in your lovely airports. Despite that utter rubbish and lack of basic human decency (and intelligence), I continue to tell my friends that Americans are generally nice and very friendly people.
A little criticism? Are you kidding me? We get crapped on in this forum on a daily basis. You can be as critical as you want about airport security, racial profiling, etc. But when it comes to how businesses inside this country (not big corporations that are worldwide, but small, local businesses) work and our local customs, you need to get over it. I would not come to your country and disregard your customs and expect you to just deal with it.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 04:30 PM   #55
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I only scanned this thread but it doesn't seem to really answer the ops question. There are four ways to pay at a bar in the USA:

1. Drink by drink.
2. Put a pile of bills in front if you. Server takes the payment out of pile when they bring you each drink.
3. Start a tab. Usually done by handing over a credit card and getting it back and the bill when you're done.
4. The magical tv way: get free drinks or just pull out a bill from your pocket. It's magically the exact amount you need to pay plus tip since you don't even have to look at it

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Who would want to tip attitude such as this? Rudeness often begets rudeness.
Exactly. You probably get rude service if you are a rude customer. And I wouldnt tip lee for this post either.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 04:34 PM   #56
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Who would want to tip attitude such as this? Rudeness often begets rudeness.
I'm sorry, are we in a restaurant right now and am I serving you? NO. Or do I never get to speak my mind because I once worked in the industry?

I spent 20 years in that business and can tell you stories that will curl your hair. I have every right to complain about it, I lived it.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 05:09 PM   #57
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It amazes me sometimes how selfish consumers can be. I'd give a break to foreign visitors who don't come from tip cultures when I worked as a waitress/bartender. I'm not sure why some of you go out of your way to blame the wait staff/tenders for the tipping system, it's not their fault, but will generally help you as a consumer get (and rate) better service. While some of you complain that what a tender/wait staff "is easy" and they shouldn't be tipped for that, it's not nearly as easy as you think it is. Dealing with drunks, *******s, grab asses, and the like made my nights a living hell. Most guys wouldn't tip if I didn't act interested in their flirting, or degrade myself like some kind of prostitute while pouring their drinks. I deserved every tip I made because babysitting *******s isn't easy.
I don't know where you worked, but it must've been a sleazy dump.

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Yes, and if all these naive people stopped working in food service, who's going to serve you at a restaurant or bar? I love this mindset of "don't bitch about your job, you picked it", it's such a cop-out. I know it makes you a big man to say stuff like that, but until restaurant/bar owners start paying what people are worth, we're stuck with a tip culture, and people have to work these jobs or you're going to be stuck with McDonald's and the like as your only social eating option.
For the record I am an excellent tipper (usually in the 25%-30% range but I don't nitpick and calculate a percentage) and I even tip no matter what even when the service is complete ****house because it feels wrong not to, even when the employee clearly didn't deserve it. I also never hold bad food against the server, they merely brought it out and some d-bag did a bad job cooking it in back. I also NEVER complain at a restaurant or send food back because I don't want to be THAT d-bag customer. You know what my first job was? Working at some crappy buffet taking piles and piles of plates away from human garbage cans who were going to get their $8 worth of food; being that it was a buffet, they damn well weren't leaving tips for the kids constantly taking away their plates. I think in the entire time I was there, I had a mere two people leave tips.

You're naive if you think restaurant or bar owners will ever want to change the system, since they would be the ones losing out. Serving jobs are unskilled labor, and servers are replaceable. The truth hurts, but that's how it is. If you really want to effect change, work your way up to become an owner and then do as you please.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 05:52 PM   #58
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Point taken Yeah, i actually tried a couple of those and they were nice. What you call 'ale' is what in Europe is referred to as 'Lager'. Real Ale, which is what I drink, is quite different. But to be fair you have a point, quality has improved. Now you need to move on to Cheese and Chocolate, i would have thought you would have nailed that by now
Agreed. Try some real US beers... of course the cheap Bud/Coors/Miller/ is your bleh but decent mass produced American beer.

But try some of the regional/local beers and you will be much more pleased. I live in Northeast Pennsylvania. Just in this area, you have Yuengling (Pottsville PA) and Stegmaier (now Lion Brewery, Wilkes-Barre, PA), which both have it's roots in Germany. I've been to the Yuengling Brewery and they still make it in a bare-roots facility that's over 100 years old. It's a good beer, and people from all over the world agree.

Then you have dozens of local craft beers, at restaurants who distribute locally (Barley Creek Brewing Company, Pocono Mountains, PA) or a smaller brewery where you can only buy cases at the local beer distributer or on tap at the Main Street pub (Susquehanna Brewing Company, Pittston, PA)

Bud/Coors/Miller was great when I was in college, on my college budget. But the next time you're in the US, please... PLEASE... try something local/regional and less-known. You'll be much happier. It'll spark conversation. It's something different. Same is true when I travel the US. I always try something new wherever I go. There's a great Brewery in South Carolina (Thomas Creek Brewing Company, Greenville SC) and one in Orlando, FL (Orlando Brewing) which has a good citrus-y type ale. All these are just specks on the map of the many throughout the good ol' USA.

There's also some decent local chocolate places in this area too (Gertrude Hawk, Chocolates by Leopold) Not sure about cheese though. Maybe in Wisconsin Put PA on your list of places to visit!
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 06:02 PM   #59
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every time the topic of tipping comes up I think of the Steve Buscemi scene in Reservoire Dogs. What an archaic practice
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 06:09 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Who said anything bout tipping for bad service? Quit putting words in my mouth.



A little criticism? Are you kidding me? We get crapped on in this forum on a daily basis. You can be as critical as you want about airport security, racial profiling, etc. But when it comes to how businesses inside this country (not big corporations that are worldwide, but small, local businesses) work and our local customs, you need to get over it. I would not come to your country and disregard your customs and expect you to just deal with it.
I didn't put any words in your mouth. I stated my thoughts on tipping.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 06:27 PM   #61
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I don't think you are in any position to tell people where and what to do. You (and your country) need to take in a bit of criticism.
I can't think of any other country that takes half the criticism that the United States gets.

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Me and people from where I grew up are constantly harassed, humiliated and searched in your lovely airports.
Its not just you, its everyone. The TSA is useless.

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espite that utter rubbish and lack of basic human decency (and intelligence),
Now all American's lack basic human decency? And intelligence?

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I continue to tell my friends that Americans are generally nice and very friendly people.
Thanks, I'd like to think most of us Americans are generally nice, intelligent, and sane people. I think the problem with the USA, is the excess of radicals and the apathetic. Maybe I should listen to my GF and move to France with her
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 06:28 PM   #62
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What a fascinating thread. I do think there is a terminology barrier going on here when talking about tipping though.

Over here in the UK tipping is what we tend to do if someone provides a good service but its usually not expected as our minimum wage is around £6/7. If you give a tip it's usually collected by all serving staff & shared out equally.

The closest thing we have to American style "tipping" would be what we call a Service Charge, it's usually applied to resturaunt bills if your party is over a certain number of people.

I think I can speak for a lot of folks on this side of the pond when I admit i had no idea how messed up the pay system is for US service industry workers. I'm sure more of us would tip if we better understood the way you guys do things.

On a further note, I've always found the service in the US to be much better than over here & the peple are generally alot nicer to deal with. It's hard to find really good service in the UK
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 06:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
That's the same logic as if you don't like it, move......

Tipping, to me, is for good service. I do it to express my gratitude, not to fulfill expectations. I am very much against the mindset that it is expected no matter how the service is.
100%, if I get horrible service, I tip very little or not at all. Its the best way to speak with your wallet.

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Over here in the UK tipping is what we tend to do if someone provides a good service but its usually not expected as our minimum wage is around £6/7. If you give a tip it's usually collected by all serving staff & shared out equally.
It kind of works that way in the US, but the servers are paid far below minimum wage, which sucks.

So, to make a living, servers in the US need tips just to survive.

Quote:
The closest thing we have to American style "tipping" would be what we call a Service Charge, it's usually applied to resturaunt bills if your party is over a certain number of people.
The US is the same way, if your party is over a certain number of people, they tack on gratuity, typically from 15-25% depending on the venue. The vast majority of people pay this, and then another 5-10% on top of that, depending how good the service was.

Quote:
I think I can speak for a lot of folks on this side of the pond when I admit i had no idea how messed up the pay system is for US service industry workers. I'm sure more of us would tip if we better understood the way you guys do things.
It is a terrible system for most people. But it can work out very well for the server if its a high volume venu. I had an ex who worked at a crappy dive bar down in this terrible small town I lived in for awhile. She cleared 1500 dollars a week.

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On a further note, I've always found the service in the US to be much better than over here. Maybe the tips are the reason? It's hard to find really good service in the UK
Yes, typically the better the service, the higher you tip. So service tends to be better.

I remember the 1st time I spent time with the GF and her family in France ( never date a French women, she will ruin your taste for any lesser women ), we went to this Bistro in Toulon, it took almost 40 minutes for the server to return with the bill, I was screaming in my then very broken French for a solid 5 minutes to even make that happen. All I said to him was tu es completement dιbile, the service was terrible at almost every place I've ever been in France.

Then, her family looked totally dumbfounded when we had amazing service, and I left a 35 Euro Tip. And it was rather amusing when the server attempted to return it to me.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 07:53 PM   #64
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Tipping even when you are not happy is unlogical.
I agree, but American tipping etiquette is embedded into our society and unless it changes all together, most people will follow the norm.

If I receive lousy service in a restaurant, I would still tip, although maybe 10% instead of 15-20%. I understand it's still part of their salary.

At a bar, I usually do $1 per drink, although if I keep getting the same server I may tip every other time, or try to combine a bunch of drinks in 1 order to tip $2-$3, or start a tab and pay 15-20% at the end.

And, it depends on the establishment. Usually I won't tip a dollar on a $1.50 draft beer each time.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 08:16 PM   #65
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I don't tip for poor service. Make a distinction for food and service, but you don't get a tip from me just because you came to work.

I owned a restaurant and taught my staff how to make very good money on tips by providing outstanding service. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 08:27 PM   #66
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From my experience I don't really think there's any correlation there. Some people are cheap and some people tip well, but I never saw a pattern where people with tabs tipped less. It really depends on the person.




It's not a joke. It's their salary. IRS has a separate category for "tipped employees" who have a much lower hourly minimum wage of $2.13/hr. Most servers and bartenders never see a pay check. The little amount of their paycheck goes to taxes, and the only money they take home is their cash tips. Not tipping is basically saying you expect this server or bartender to serve you for free.



You don't have to tip "for everything" here, just tipped employees who rely on their tips as their main source of income.



So you expect them to serve you for free then? And do you think that bottle just magically appears cold in the cooler ready for the bartender to open whenever you want another beer?



Depends on the establishment but the federal minimum for all tipped workers is $2.13/hr. Last restaurant I worked in the servers got the Massachusetts minimum ($2.63) and the bartenders got $5.00 per hour. Our bartenders got paid the extra above the tipped minimum because of all of the extra responsibilities they had over the servers. A bi-weekly paycheck for approx 75 hours for me was about $60. Nearly all of my income came from tips.



When the IRS defines restaurant workers as a separate class of "tipped employees" and they get paid $2.13 an hour instead of the regular minimum wage of $7.25 an hour, you ARE expected to tip. Yes, it's a stupid and broken system, but it is what it is. Don't like it? Don't go to a bar and buy your booze at a liquor store, or don't expect to get good service. Nobody likes serving people for free.



Most places don't include the rates because it IS a custom and it's customary to tip 15-20% on a bill or $0.50-$1 per drink when ordering them individually at a bar. It also seems like the tip percentage is increasing with the younger generations. Most older people tip 15-18% and occasionally up to 20% but I found younger people rarely left below 18%, most times it was around 20% and sometimes upwards of 25%.

But the moral of the story is take care of your bartender/server and they will take care of you. Most good bartenders are "people" persons and they will remember the faces that tip well and don't tip well. If you tip them well, they'll remember and take care of you the next time you're at their bar. And if you don't tip, don't get upset or be surprised when you get ignored or get bad service. All I know is that if I had two repeat customers waiting at my bar, one a good tipper and one a cheapskate, the guy who tips well is getting served first every time.
I hear a lot of complaints from people who work as bartenders about how they don't get paid enough, but if you're working at a busy bar and say you only get $1 per drink you serve average, bartenders would be making a fortune - a hell of a lot more than minimum wage
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 08:49 PM   #67
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I hear a lot of complaints from people who work as bartenders about how they don't get paid enough, but if you're working at a busy bar and say you only get $1 per drink you serve average, bartenders would be making a fortune - a hell of a lot more than minimum wage
Last summer, I worked a seasonal gig at an outdoor concert venue. I was hired as a "Bartender" but that consisted of pouring draft beer or handing the person a bottle/can and taking their money, depending which stand you were assigned to that day. I was paid $9.00/hr and got tips. Honestly, I didn't even expect a tip since a 24oz. draft domestic was $9.75 and a 24oz domestic can was $11. Those prices, combined with the "stadium atmosphere", and the fact that I didn't do anything besides pour a beer or hand them a can from a cooler, didn't make me expect tips, but I still got them. Usually a dollar a drink.

One concert I went to work I was asked to work a food stand. I didn't want to- I wasn't hired for this and you didn't make tips. I reluctantly agreed, and it was horrible. Anybody that ever worked in fast food, I feel for you now. You had to ring up dozens of different food items, instead of maybe 6 different drink prices. I worked 100x harder than I ever did in my beer stand, yet I made about $100 less that day due to the fact that I didn't get tips.

That sounds a little backwards to me.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 08:53 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by MacFan782040 View Post
But try some of the regional/local beers and you will be much more pleased. I live in Northeast Pennsylvania. Just in this area, you have Yuengling (Pottsville PA) and Stegmaier (now Lion Brewery, Wilkes-Barre, PA), which both have it's roots in Germany. I've been to the Yuengling Brewery and they still make it in a bare-roots facility that's over 100 years old. It's a good beer, and people from all over the world agree.
Yuengling is fantastic. The strangest beer I ever found was a Kosher beer called He'brew. It wasn't the best, but certainly interesting.

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Its not just you, its everyone. The TSA is useless.
A coworker was telling me how he got to the airport at 3am the day after Christmas. The flight was delayed an hour until 5am, but it was so busy it took his girlfriend 3 hours to get through the TSA, missed her flight, and she had to wait until 6pm for the next open flight.

Useless is such an understatement. I almost feel like they're infringing upon our constitutional rights.

Oh yeah, and non-americans: If you visit, follow our customs and tip. I follow your customs as best as I can when I visit you (even if I don't speak your language very well!)
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 09:29 PM   #69
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I spent 20 years in that business and can tell you stories that will curl your hair.
A bit dramatic eh? Many industries will make your hair curl. Just ask a police officer or solider on the front lines.

I've worked retail myself and know how it can be. You're not the only one who's ever had to deal with customers. I got stories to. Not only will they make your hair curl, but your skin my start to crawl!

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I have every right to complain about it, I lived it.
Oh so it's a right to complain about it? Yea it's tough but I got over it. Move on. You stayed with it for 20 years, obviously didn't like it, but still did it? Hmmm that's odd. If I don't like what I'm doing, I change something. Even Steve Jobs said that in his Standford speech.

Quit being so dramatic and act like you've had it so hard. Trust me, many others have had worse.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:00 PM   #70
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Yuengling is fantastic.
Apparently, it's Obama's favorite beer.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 12:37 AM   #71
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Because that's how it works here. One more time- don't like it? Don't visit. Pretty simple. And yes, it IS customary and expected. I think I know my own country- thanks.

Servers and bartenders here do not even make minimum wage. So you not tipping is considered extremely rude.



Then stay out of restaurants and bars.
Your tone and attitude are VERY uncalled for.

Rest assured, if YOU were my server/bartender you would get absolutely NOTHING.

THANK YOU.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 01:06 AM   #72
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Your tone and attitude are VERY uncalled for.

Rest assured, if YOU were my server/bartender you would get absolutely NOTHING.

THANK YOU.
I guarantee you 98% of servers in America agree with every word of Lee's statements. Guess you should never tip again

I'm not even a waiter, and I hate hearing people from other countries saying they don't tip in the US. Every country has their own customs, and you should try to follow them when you travel there. You wouldn't go to someone's house in Japan and walk around their house with your shoes on even though it's considered acceptable in many Western countries. Our customs include tipping. So why would you not tip? Understandable if the service was absolutely atrocious, but in my many years of dining out, I have never had service so terrible that I did not leave any tip.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 04:36 AM   #73
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I do think there is a terminology barrier going on here when talking about tipping though.

Over here in the UK tipping is what we tend to do if someone provides a good service but its usually not expected as our minimum wage is around £6/7. If you give a tip it's usually collected by all serving staff & shared out equally.
It would be better if people here in the US would call it something else other than tipping so that foreigners from other countries won't confuse the purpose of US non-minimum wage tipping culture. The kind of tipping being discussed is the tipping for under minimum wage workers which is commonly found in restaurants. These workers are usually waiters/waitresses and bartenders.

That kind of tipping is more like a worker who gets paid with commission, but the difference from traditional commission salary is that the customer chooses how much or how little the worker gets. Most of the time customers pay the same percentage so in that sense it's similar to a commission. I'm also assuming that the rest of the world does commission salaries similar to the US. Anyway, the point is that it's expected etiquette and that's where most of their wages comes from. You don't have to tip them if you don't like their service, but it's considered rude not to if they gave you acceptable service.

It really shouldn't be called a tip, but calling it "US-restaurants-somehow-got-lucky-enough-to-not-pay-workers-the-legal-minimum-wage-and-are-abusing-their-luck-forcing-we-the-customers-to-have-to-pay-employee-wages" would be not be supported by any restaurant.

As zioxide has already mentioned, it is a ridiculous system. It's a system that can't be fixed over night and probably will never get fixed because people here in the US have accepted it as "normal". The type of "tipping" found in US restaurants and bars should be thought of more as you personally paying the waiter/waitress or bartender's wages. A new word should be used instead to prevent confusion, but only non-Americans won't understand the difference so nobody here has been motivated enough to call it something else other than tipping.

Last edited by nw9; Dec 30, 2012 at 04:41 AM.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 04:55 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yg17 View Post
I guarantee you 98% of servers in America agree with every word of Lee's statements. Guess you should never tip again
That's because they're slaves to our horribly broken system and have no choice but to cheerlead for it.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 07:48 AM   #75
Huntn
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Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stridemat View Post
I wouldn't even dream of tipping those behind the bar in the UK. Serving food I can see why, but drink only seems inappropriate to me.
My personal standard is that I don't tip when someone hands me food across a counter, although there is a tip jar usually sitting there. For this case, I am thinking of fast food. The sad fact is that some/most/all restaurant employers in the U.S. have turned tips in their minds into compensation and use it to justify playing very low wages, although it is optional if the customer tips or not.

As far as running a tab, I don't often drink in bars, but when I do, most of the time I have been expected to pay for each drink as I receive it. I suppose if I was a regular, running a tab would be allowed. And I leave a tip when I'm about to leave. I would think it would be a nightmare for a waitress/er to keep track of everyone's tab and make sure they don't skip out.
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