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Old Dec 30, 2012, 07:25 PM   #1
katewes
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Apple is example of broken system: Low tax only work if tax-investment cycle operates

I speak as a Republican supporter.

I see things simplistically: low taxes, businesses profit and prosper, thus enabling those businesses to invest more into their own community in jobs and infrastructure investment, and purchase of supplies from their own community. That is the cycle which I see caused the United States to rise to become the richest nation in history.

In nature, there are cycles: the water cycle - it rains, water flows to sea, water evaporates, eventually falling as rain. It's impossible for that cycle to be broken.

But man's greed, specifically the greed of American businesses, since the 1990's has seen shipping jobs overseas while expecting to reap increased profits State-side.

Therefore, I see it as a cycle that is broken, when the Republicans refuse tax rises, but do not have significant policies to encourage American businesses to keep employment and manufacturing at home.

As a GOP supporter, I identify this as what's broken in the Republican philosophy:

>> The GOP should not believe in the "free market", i.e. pursuit of profits at all cost.

>> Rather, the GOP should believe in the free market CYCLE, i.e. pursuit of profits as a means of cycling profits back into the U.S. economy.

As a GOP supporter, I am sickened by the greed that sustains the base model of its policies.

There is a mega mental block when US corporations think they can pillage the US marketplace for sales profits, and keep shipping their manufacturing offshore. This can only go on for several decades until the system implodes. And it is imploding now after several decades of shipping manufacturing and technology overseas.

A symptom of the sickness is when CEO's like Tim Cook feel no responsibility to the US community, but only to Apple shareholders. When did this sort of sick thinking take root? This sort of business mentality is taught in business schools. It's a philosophy that no one questions, because it's the culture and everyone does it. No one stops to think that greed is sin.

Rather than citing Tim Cook as 2012's runner up TIME magazine man of the year, Apple should be cited as an example of everything that is broken in U.S. business philosophy.

Some day -- if America becomes an economic basketcase like Russia -- we will look at Apple's $120 billion cash hoard as the ultimate example of a company that flouted the free-market CYCLE, and turned it into a free-market push for profits with wanton disregard for any responsibility to its own U.S. community.

Whenever American business parrot the mantra -- "our only responsibility is to our shareholders" -- that is a doctrine that, as Winston Churchill said, we are entering "A Period of Consequences".

The Soviet Union took several decades to reap the consequences of Communist philosophy. Similarly, America is now reaping the consequences of flouting the profit-investment cycle.

It is a cycle which cannot be broken, without dire consequences.

Somewhere in the equation, Tim Cook -- as the master of Apple's infrastructure creation -- is an embodiment of this philosophy which, in my view, we are going to see the consequences.

Last edited by katewes; Dec 30, 2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 07:47 PM   #2
DakotaGuy
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I'd say as long as Apple keeps getting richer most people on this forum will be happy no matter their political preference.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 07:52 PM   #3
katewes
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
I'd say as long as Apple keeps getting richer most people on this forum will be happy no matter their political preference.
A system can only be regarded as "sick" when the majority of people have caught the sickness.

DakotaGuy, do you believe that "greed is good?"
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 08:01 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by katewes View Post
A system can only be regarded as "sick" when the majority of people have caught the sickness.

DakotaGuy, do you believe that "greed is good?"
No greed is bad, unless it is Apple. I remember the whole March on Wall Street or whatever that was and whenever you would see a picture of someone blogging or whatever... There was an Apple product! It seems like they were not too concerned about Apple's outrageous profits or net worth or they would have bought from a smaller company just trying to survive. If you want to support the little guy you can even in the tech world.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 08:41 PM   #5
katewes
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
No greed is bad, unless it is Apple. I remember the whole March on Wall Street or whatever that was and whenever you would see a picture of someone blogging or whatever... There was an Apple product! It seems like they were not too concerned about Apple's outrageous profits or net worth or they would have bought from a smaller company just trying to survive. If you want to support the little guy you can even in the tech world.

I don't want to be misconstrued as advocating support only for the little guy. In my post, I did not mention little or big guys.

The main point I made was that the nature of a wealth cycle is that a system that enables corporations to make profits can be sustained if those profits are ploughed back into the country that offers that system.

My corollary was that, in the U.S., that nature cycle -- of low tax and investment back in the U.S. -- has been broken, thus precipitating a season of consequences where there is a reaping of what has been sown over several decades.

And that Apple, with its $120 billion proft, with all (until recent token returns) hardware manufacturing overseas, is a prime example of the magnitude of how broke the system is.

A measure of how broke the system is, is that everyone gloats and admires Apple's $120B cash pile. And -- here's how the system is so broke -- no one stops to ask: hey, how come Apple made so much profit? If Apple had been investing back into the U.S., would the profit have been so great? Is that level of profit sustainable for the U.S. when it is achieved at the expense of lost manufacturing jobs in the U.S.? No one thinks that. That is why the system is so far gone. Totally lost is the American conscience that would question Tim Cook's system. It is totally beyond repair when ordinary people like DakotaGuy have lost the ability to see that the natural order of the tax-investment cycle has been broken.

Last edited by katewes; Dec 30, 2012 at 08:47 PM.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 08:47 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by katewes View Post
I don't want to be misconstrued as advocating support only for the little guy. In my post, I did not mention little or big guys.

The main point I made was that the nature of a wealth cycle is that a system that enables corporations to make profits can be sustained if those profits are ploughed back into the country that offers that system.

My corollary was that, in the U.S., that nature cycle -- of low tax and investment back in the U.S. -- has been broken, thus precipitating a season of consequences where there is a reaping of what has been sown over several decades.

And that Apple, with its $120 billion proft, with all (until recent token returns) hardware manufacturing overseas, is a prime example of the magnitude of how broke the system is.

A measure of how broke the system is, is that everyone gloats and admires Apple's $120B cash pile. And -- here's how the system is so broke -- no one stops to ask, hey, how come Apple made so much profit? If Apple had been investing back into the U.S., would the profit have been so great? Is that level of profit sustainable for the U.S. when it is achieved at the expense of hardware manufacturing jobs in the U.S.? No one thinks that. That is why the system is so far gone. Totally lost is the American conscience that would question Tim Cook's system. It is totally beyond repair when ordinary people like DakotaGuy have lost the ability to see that the natural order of the tax-investment cycle has been broken.
No I agree with some of your points. All I am saying is that you might not find a lot of people around Macrumors that would agree with your point in regards to Apple. Now if it was some other corporation that probably doesn't get a lot of love around here... hmm... let's say ExxonMobil then you would probably get a lot more support. Apple is generally exempted for whatever reason. I guess we love their products too much.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:09 PM   #7
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I guess we love their products too much.


In terms of sentiment, railing at Apple, for me, is like criticising your parents and family, because at heart you love them and hope they'll change for the better.

With Exxon-Mobil, hmmm, the gloves would be off.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 12:07 AM   #8
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I agree with you katewes. Tom Wolfe had it right in Bonfire of the Vanities and I modestly lay claim to my own statements back I'm the early 90s that the US was headed towards another Gilded Age and that all the McMansions would end up as white elephants. US companies were only interested in skimming the cream and not interested in the health of the cow. Sustainability isn't just relevant in the environment, but also in business. If nobody can afford to buy your product...

DG, seems to think that Apple is a sacred cow here. Apple's products are "insanely great" and they've changed the world many times over. It's much harder to find any redemption in a company like Walmart whose sole purpose is a race to the bottom. Of course, Walmart wouldn't be as relevant if Apple still made its computers in the US...
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 12:15 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by katewes View Post
I speak as a Republican supporter.

Sounds like you need to change parties
Quote:
I see things simplistically: low taxes, businesses profit and prosper, thus enabling those businesses to invest more into their own community in jobs and infrastructure investment, and purchase of supplies from their own community. That is the cycle which I see caused the United States to rise to become the richest nation in history.
Yep, there were higher taxes overall on everyone back in the US's prime ( 50s and 60s ). But lower taxes on business.

Quote:
Therefore, I see it as a cycle that is broken, when the Republicans refuse tax rises, but do not have significant policies to encourage American businesses to keep employment and manufacturing at home.
The Republicans are currently for lower taxes on high earners, and higher taxes on the little guy. Their stonewalling as of late proves that.

Quote:
>> The GOP should not believe in the "free market", i.e. pursuit of profits at all cost.
They don't do the " free market ", if they really bought what they spew. They wouldn't give billions away to oil companies. And they do.

Quote:
As a GOP supporter, I am sickened by the greed that sustains the base model of its policies.
Stop supporting, you should be sickened. They are out to help big business. And the super rich. They couldn't care less about the little guy. They cut school lunchs, and want more tax breaks for oil companies? Right....

Quote:
There is a mega mental block when US corporations think they can pillage the US marketplace for sales profits, and keep shipping their manufacturing offshore. This can only go on for several decades until the system implodes. And it is imploding now after several decades of shipping manufacturing and technology overseas.
You think its bad now? Give it another 10 years, unless there is a major change.

Quote:
A symptom of the sickness is when CEO's like Tim Cook feel no responsibility to the US community, but only to Apple shareholders. When did this sort of sick thinking take root? This sort of business mentality is taught in business schools. It's a philosophy that no one questions, because it's the culture and everyone does it. No one stops to think that greed is sin.
This kind of thinking comes directly from the GOP, it used to exist back in the late 1800s/early 1900s until the working man got pissed and starting striking.

Its back again thanks to the GOP, and now its encouraged.

Quote:
Some day -- if America becomes an economic basketcase like Russia -- we will look at Apple's $120 billion cash hoard as the ultimate example of a company that flouted the free-market CYCLE, and turned it into a free-market push for profits with wanton disregard for any responsibility to its own U.S. communit
That is how its worked in this country since the 80s, thanks Regan. ( I'm keeping a nice bottle of wine around for when Nancy Dies )

They dont care about the U.S. they see it as a market they can bleed dry. Then go somewhere else.

Quote:
Whenever American business parrot the mantra -- "our only responsibility is to our shareholders" -- that is a doctrine that, as Winston Churchill said, we are entering "A Period of Consequences".
Wise words. The modern businessman cares about nothing else.

Quote:
The Soviet Union took several decades to reap the consequences of Communist philosophy. Similarly, America is now reaping the consequences of flouting the profit-investment cycle.
Its not business's profiting, its business's profiting, then shipping jops overseas, and then hiding the profits overseas. They want all the benefits of success without helping the very people who made them a success.

The modern American business model is doomed to long term failure.

However, it looks like the population is starting to wake up to all this ********, I suspect sweeping changes coming soon.

Last edited by G51989; Dec 31, 2012 at 12:25 AM.
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