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Old Dec 31, 2012, 01:47 PM   #176
50548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
It's a dog eat dog world. Why not go rob a liquor store?

Why not get a gun and hold up old ladies for their jewelry?

Why not?

Because you're probably the type of criminal that thinks it's cool to steal electronically and that it's somehow different than taking something directly from a person.

It's not, but whatever you think. Hopefully you won't bother calling the cops when the bigger dog comes for you, especially since it's only fair....
Equating physical, rivalrous property with IPR is an old fallacy spread by the likes of RIAA, MPAA and others...for instance, downloading music and other media content strictly for personal/family use is ABSOLUTELY legal in several civilized jurisdictions, including many European countries, Brazil and other countries (although software is normally not included in that possibility)...the same goes for many fair use cases, which would obviously not apply to a bottle of liquor or an apple in a supermarket.

So try studying a bit of law or at least knowing what a certain jurisdiction qualifies as a legal offense before calling someone who has downloaded a song a "thief" - that's why business models need to change over time, after all.

And no, I've never used Installous or any such crap; today is the first time I heard of them.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 01:48 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by iLog.Genius View Post
I find it funny that all these people who never used Installous are applauding that it's shutting down. You may never use Installous but by shutting it down, you're also being affected if you jailbreak for the tweaks in Cydia. If there isn't Installous, it's just another reason for devs to slow down or not even attempt a jailbreak. Right/wrong, Installous became huge in the jailbreaking community and with the scene as it is right now, there's less and less reasons to jailbreak.
All the devs are against piracy. The fact that there isn't any super popular way to pirate anymore might actually encourage them to get a JB out knowing that a lot less people will be pirating from it.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 01:52 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Detrias View Post
Well to be fair, yes you would hurt the economy but not the point of no services being available.
If too many people adopt the same attitude, you don't think the economy would suffer? There would be no incentive for anybody to produce any goods and services. So, why would they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detrias View Post
Also, i see that you are a developer and me pirating an app does not mean that you wont receive any compensation at all from your work, just means you would receive less.
If all my customers have the same attitude as you, that less compensation becomes no compensation.

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Originally Posted by Detrias View Post
The main dilemma is finding a price point where most people feel is better to just buy it from you, that go thru the hassle of stealing it (if every app was just .99 cents, and movies were like 4.99) way more people would just be willing to outright pay for it, and even tho pirates/thiefs will always exist, they will be a much smaller percentage.
Pricing things cheaper does not guarantee that enough people will buy it to ensure a profit. Basic economics.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:00 PM   #179
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Oh, the horror!
I had to shield my eyes. It was almost too much to bear!

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Originally Posted by Kaibelf View Post
Not for nothing, but stealing is NOT "harmless," since, as shown by the example in this very article, it has a very real effect on people trying to run a business. How many thousands of dollars and man-hours were ruined by people like your relative? It's no better than people related to a mugger on the news talking about what a good boy the perp is.
What I'm meaning is that these people wouldn't break any law, but somehow see piracy as an exception. They think that there's less emphasis.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:05 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by MH01 View Post
I wonder if the same goes for music

Wonder how many on here bashing jailbreaking like it = piracy, have NEVER received a free song one way or another....

same same but different as the saying goes.
So your example implies, because somebody ONCE did something wrong, that is license for every pirate to pirate software?

So because you sped once I'm justified in coming over and shooting you, after all your recklessness endangered everyone on the road.

Look a decade ago I got a few free songs. Guess what, I deleted them all (yes ALL) after buying legitimate replacements through iTunes.

All of my software (yes ALL) is licensed. I'm not stupid enough to believe forcing developers to charge $1 for a piece of software is going to create quality software.

All piracy does is destroy the new guy, the small guy, the one coming up to try and make affordable software.

The big companied (Adobe for example) can handle a certain level of piracy (loss) because of the amount of legitimate installs (typical tragedy of the commons scenario).

However, the new guys that create software (like my favorite Pixelmator) get pirated too. Even though they are priced in the realm of the normal user. Pirates are not about "fighting the man." They are about egocentrism and entitlement (or the competition for the big guys wouldn't get pirated).

Pirates are B.S. Piracy is B.S. I look forward to every single thieving one of them being sentenced to life without digital. No phones, no computers, no software, no car with a vehicular computer, not even a camera.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:14 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by kd5jos View Post
no car with a vehicular computer, not even a camera.
So every car after the year 2000 then?
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Last edited by dejo; Dec 31, 2012 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Quoted post deleted / response removed.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:19 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by cclloyd9785 View Post
All the devs are against piracy. The fact that there isn't any super popular way to pirate anymore might actually encourage them to get a JB out knowing that a lot less people will be pirating from it.
That's also another way of looking at it. Obviously this isn't clear/clean cut situation but for those who think the removal of Installous is a good thing, sure it's good for the hard working developers, but just the state of Jailbreaking overall, if pieces start falling the community begins to fall apart.

I don't think of it as Installous on it's own. I look at it being a critical part of the overall community whether you think Installous does more harm than good. And with the rumors and hints that jailbreaking my not exist anymore, it just doesn't look good. I'm not an iOS user but most of my family is and they use Cydia for various tweaks for iOS which are pretty damn cool and should be part of the OS and it would be a shame if features and tweaks fail to exist.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:20 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Vudoo View Post
A fair price can vary from person to person where some may say that if it isn't free, then it's not fair.
I know I'm generalizing with this following statement, but I would hazard a guess that these are the same people who think that they should just get paid and not do any work (for whatever their job functions dictate).

However, I can somewhat agree to your statement: indeed there are some apps that are extortionately disproportionate in value. But, for the most part -- in my experience, at least -- there are the majority of apps on the App Store are worth their value.

It's sad how the general consensus (of those whose iDevice[s] I have jailbroken) associate jailbreaking with piracy. That is one of the stipulations I invoke with providing my jailbreak service (for free, of course) for friends and friends of friends: "under no circumstances are they to pirate any apps or tweaks". Once they break that rule, I completely disregard any further requests to (re-)jailbreak their respective iDevice(s). Sure, they'll end up jailbreaking their iDevice by other means, but I will not be an accomplice to their piracy.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:21 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by BRLawyer View Post
Equating physical, rivalrous property with IPR is an old fallacy spread by the likes of RIAA, MPAA and others...for instance, downloading music and other media content strictly for personal/family use is ABSOLUTELY legal in several civilized jurisdictions, including many European countries, Brazil and other countries (although software is normally not included in that possibility)...the same goes for many fair use cases, which would obviously not apply to a bottle of liquor or an apple in a supermarket.

So try studying a bit of law or at least knowing what a certain jurisdiction qualifies as a legal offense before calling someone who has downloaded a song a "thief" - that's why business models need to change over time, after all.

And no, I've never used Installous or any such crap; today is the first time I heard of them.
Just because the law hasn't caught up doesn't make it any less of a crime of theft.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:21 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by kd5jos View Post
Pirates are B.S. Piracy is B.S. I look forward to every single thieving one of them being sentenced to life without digital. No phones, no computers, no software, no car with a vehicular computer, not even a camera.
That's a little overboard.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:23 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by rendevouspoo View Post
That's a little overboard.
That's what happens when someone with a lack of knowledge posts based on overwhelming emotions.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:33 PM   #187
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:46 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Detrias View Post
I find funny that people say they don't pirate, yet they jailbreak their phones to be able to bypass the tethering charges set by their carriers (on att for example thats 20 bucks a month). So its cool to steal money away from the carriers, but god forbid we take 70% of 1-5 dollars away from a developer?
Yeah, those poor carriers. How dare I take away their ability for them to charge me to use a service I'm already paying for.

I applaud shuttering sites like Hackulous. Developers deserve your money, and it's not exactly like iOS apps are expensive things to begin with. I see no reason why anyone should pirate a bunch of $1-$5 apps. Hell, even if they were $40-$50, I still couldn't find a good reason for it.

But finding workarounds for tethering? Oh, I support that. Tethering charges are nothing more than an attempt to gouge our wallets for every single dime they can possibly squeeze out of them. Me finding a way around it literally costs the carriers absolutely nothing.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:49 PM   #189
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i tried it once, mostly as a way to research if a particular $100 audio app was actually worth it.

it wasnt.

if i had spent that money, i would have been furious and the developer would have gotten more than an ear full.

since that time, several alternatives came out from other developers at 5% the cost or less that do the exact same job, just as well. free market economy at its finest.

also the stability problems i had on my phone after using installous was not worth it either. lots of crashes.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:55 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by philr5150 View Post
Funny to read all the righteous-ness and "holier than thou" attitudes on here, all the people bashing piracy - of course, none of you have EVER had an app without paying (on any platform), watched a pirated movie or downloaded/listened to pirated music. No way, never. Right?
Heck, I didn't just pirate: when I was 1, I have it on good authority that I used to wet my pants!

Some of us realized we were actually harming actual people and stopped pirating stuff. Just like we stopped wetting ourselves. Others apparently have not.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:59 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Detrias View Post
Well to be fair, yes you would hurt the economy but not the point of no services being available. Also, i see that you are a developer and me pirating an app does not mean that you wont receive any compensation at all from your work, just means you would receive less. The main dilemma is finding a price point where most people feel is better to just buy it from you, that go thru the hassle of stealing it (if every app was just .99 cents, and movies were like 4.99) way more people would just be willing to outright pay for it, and even tho pirates/thiefs will always exist, they will be a much smaller percentage.
You really have no clue how much developer time is worth do you? How much do you think our time is worth per hour? Give you a hint developers time is not very cheap. We cost a lot of money and our time is not cheap.

I also work on a product on mobile device that charges a pretty hefty monthly fee per user. Our time is not cheap.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detrias View Post
I find funny that people say they don't pirate, yet they jailbreak their phones to be able to bypass the tethering charges set by their carriers (on att for example thats 20 bucks a month). So its cool to steal money away from the carriers, but god forbid we take 70% of 1-5 dollars away from a developer?

I for one pirate movies and music (I no longer pirate apps purely because the savings don't outweigh the cons) and i know that what i do is wrong, but you don't see me trying to blur the line of whats right or wrong like some people on this forum, blatantly trying to justify their acts and on top of it acting all mighty because they don't do a particular crime, yet they are willing to do a different one. Ohhh and the kicker, they even dare to point their fingers at those who go all the way. Some people just need to get off their high horse and stop being such hypocrites.

Again I ask. How much do you a dev should be making per hour of work? What do you think it would cost to higher one of us per hour?
How many hours do you think get put into a project?
How much do you think a line of code cost on average when it is all said and done?

My guess is you will be low on all accounts.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:02 PM   #192
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i tried it once, mostly as a way to research if a particular $100 audio app was actually worth it.

it wasnt.
I will say this, any app that costs over, say, $50 should be required to have a demo. With no real way to get a refund, you're left hanging on the word of the developers that you're buying a stable, feature rich, well supported piece of software.

If it ends up performing well below expectation, then hey, you're screwed. You just lost $100. There is no warranty of merchantability in the app store world. You're given no recourse for compensation if the product doesn't live up to it's advertised expectations.

This is one of the only reasons why I semi-support the "piracy as a means to demo" argument. It isn't the best system around, mostly because it's too heavily based on the honor system. If some guy pirates an app, doesn't like it, and immediately deletes it thereafter, then that's fine. No one's been hurt. But what's stopping him from using it for free from that point on? He could be using it as a "demo" for 5 years on, never once paying for the nice product he uses on a regular basis.

The one easiest way to solve this would be for Apple to support a try before you buy setup in the App Store. Just about every other app store has it these days. Let the developers set it up so people can demo their apps for 5 to 30 days or so, and it removes one of the most used excuses for people to jailbreak and hit up repositories like Hackulous. It's a win for everyone involved.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:05 PM   #193
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I payed for all my apps on my phone but if no jailbreak comes out by spring that's it for me using iPhone. Ill give my iphone 5 to my GF and pruchase a galaxy phone. I'll keep buying iPads and the Apple TV but I miss customizing my phone and having it my way.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:06 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by pubwvj View Post
I fail to understand why this is such a problem. I am a developer. I write software. So I have a bit of knowledge in this area. It is easy to implement protection against pirated software especially on server based games and the like. The fact that these developers like Hunted Cow choose not to do so is strange.
*sigh* The fact that you're even posting this statement shows with absolute clarity that you've never tried developing and selling an iPhone app. The fact that you're acting like you are some kind of authority on the anti-piracy features of iOS I can only attribute to the tendency of many otherwise smart people to be absolutely incapable of knowing when their prior experience does not necessarily apply.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:08 PM   #195
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An alternative will come. People who pirate will always find ways of doing it.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:19 PM   #196
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wow, so many righteous people here... you hate piracy so much that you've never even downloaded an MP3 in your life or saved a copyrighted image from the web... right... but, but, those are music companies, they are rich, so that makes it OK!

The psychological fact is that most people have an "if I buy I gun, I should get the bullets for free" mentality.

And you have no idea just how much piracy pushes the hardware. Just ask Sony and their locked down failed Vita.

Piracy, like everything else should be in balance.

This is very bad news for jailbreaking in general, it starts like this, the piracy scene gets shut down, then jailbreaking community leaves... and the whole scene moves to Android.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:26 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Detrias View Post
I find funny that people say they don't pirate, yet they jailbreak their phones to be able to bypass the tethering charges set by their carriers (on att for example thats 20 bucks a month). So its cool to steal money away from the carriers, but god forbid we take 70% of 1-5 dollars away from a developer?
I find it weird that discussions of tethering and methods seem to be tolerated on here. US rate plans aren't that exceptional compared to other countries, but people can be kind of weird in their perception of tangibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kd5jos View Post

All of my software (yes ALL) is licensed. I'm not stupid enough to believe forcing developers to charge $1 for a piece of software is going to create quality software.

All piracy does is destroy the new guy, the small guy, the one coming up to try and make affordable software.
I don't think it would cause good software to disappear. It's just outside of the well funded open source projects that are at times backed by larger companies, it would likely drive a lot of better software to solutions unavailable to the general public. Larger companies can hire in house development staff. Large developers that depend almost entirely on corporate accounts for survival would still be there. You'd just lack a lot of good software at the mass market level. A lot of it has arguably been commoditized anyway. How many people can you think of with a dozen $50-100 apps legally installed on their notebooks for personal use with the possible exception of games? Once you move into things needed to accomplish some kind of work, the potential market shrinks, yet you pick up a greater willingness to purchase things as long as they provide some measure of improvement to efficiency of workflow or quality of an end result within a fixed period of time. I'm being extremely specific so as to avoid some of the cliche responses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kd5jos View Post
However, the new guys that create software (like my favorite Pixelmator) get pirated too. Even though they are priced in the realm of the normal user. Pirates are not about "fighting the man." They are about egocentrism and entitlement (or the competition for the big guys wouldn't get pirated).
What makes Pixelmator interesting relative to something like Elements is that it's built as a lighter weight low cost application. It was able to leverage whatever modern libraries and R&D to make something new today rather than the typical take an application with older roots and strip it down. From what I've seen it still can't compare to what Adobe has, yet it's exceptional for a $30 program. Hmm... the app store now says $15. I'll buy it later just to mess around. In some areas I've seen smaller applications do a better job than the large developers that have to prioritize areas of improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kd5jos View Post
The big companied (Adobe for example) can handle a certain level of piracy (loss) because of the amount of legitimate installs (typical tragedy of the commons scenario).
It's unlikely that most of those would have turned into legitimate sales if the option was unavailable. Adobe has provided cheap legal paths in the past. They used to offer an upgrade from the Wacom intuos bundles to photoshop. Creative Suite can be upgraded starting from an educational license. There are options there specific to individual users.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:33 PM   #198
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Why the lack of comments on jbing for modding? I jb just for modding cause iOS still doesn't allow a lot of stuff...like printing natively to many printers (via truprint) or like tethering natively (tetherme) or like one finger swipe up for multitasking (zephyr)
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:50 PM   #199
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Great news for developers, specially if you develop games that rely on your own server.
There are still sites that serve up cracked apps. All you have to do is drag them into iTunes and sync your phone. There is a simple mod in Cydia that allows them to sync.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:55 PM   #200
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Maybe this will put an end to some of the YouTube reviewers that make videos that earn them money by reviewing these apps they illegally download.
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