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Old Jan 1, 2013, 07:58 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
I agree and there are cases out there now that are working on it. But the Citizens case is the precedent now and it's gonna be hard to change that.
It can still be changed, I think people are waking up. Your right, it won't be easy.
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 08:01 PM   #77
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We are still going over the cliff. This agreement does NOTHING to fix that. Are any of you actually paying attention?

The deficit is $1.3T a year. That's spending $6B a day MORE than we are bringing in. This agreement saves $600B over TEN YEARS, and its heavily loaded on the back end, meaning 2013 savings are only estimated at $20B.

That's a saving of 6 DAYS spending.

The cliff is still here. We fall over it 6 days later than expected.

Feel better now? Your government just did NOTHING to fix the problem, but you are lauding them on their vision and how well they are screwing those uber-rich?
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 09:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
We are still going over the cliff. This agreement does NOTHING to fix that. Are any of you actually paying attention?

The deficit is $1.3T a year. That's spending $6B a day MORE than we are bringing in. This agreement saves $600B over TEN YEARS, and its heavily loaded on the back end, meaning 2013 savings are only estimated at $20B.

That's a saving of 6 DAYS spending.

The cliff is still here. We fall over it 6 days later than expected.

Feel better now? Your government just did NOTHING to fix the problem, but you are lauding them on their vision and how well they are screwing those uber-rich?
The so-called fiscal cliff was avoided as there will be no great tax increases, spending cuts or deficit reduction measures. What has not been fixed is the belief that any budget problems can be pushed into the future indefinitely. Tomorrow's tax payers will be forever saddled with more of today's profligacy. The only real solution to the problem is simply too painful for a spineless politician to face. It actually would have been better on the long run to have gone over the cliff 4 years ago or earlier.
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 09:59 PM   #79
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Looks like no Republican has to fear retaliation from Grover Norquist. He just tweeted this....

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The Bush tax cuts lapsed at midnight last night. Every R voting for Senate bill is cutting taxes and keeping his/her pledge.
EDIT: House passes the Senate bill. Off to get signed by Obama.
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 10:31 PM   #80
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Looks like no Republican has to fear retaliation from Grover Norquist. He just tweeted this....
Doesn't quite explain why he was also for plan B.

Either way most Republicans still voted against it; Thank goodness Boehner didn't go for the usual majority of a majority, or this clearly wouldn't have gone through.
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 10:45 PM   #81
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Paul Ryan just raised taxes..

Remember that teapartiers. Get him out of office.
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 10:47 PM   #82
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Paul Ryan just raised taxes..

Remember that teapartiers. Get him out of office.
Ah, but by waiting until immediately after the fiscal cliff he technically lowered taxes.
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 11:42 PM   #83
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The issue now is when the next cliff occurs in 3 months, the Republicans lost their leverage with restoring the Bush tax cuts for people who make under $400,000.

So what will they use as a bargaining chip to get something out of the Democrats?
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 12:21 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
They should have no say in the direction of our country solely because they are rich?
no more than any other yutz..
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 04:55 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
The issue now is when the next cliff occurs in 3 months, the Republicans lost their leverage with restoring the Bush tax cuts for people who make under $400,000.

So what will they use as a bargaining chip to get something out of the Democrats?
They don't need a bargaining chip as long as dems don't have full control and we need to spend more money than we take in. The dems have to get the Republicans to agree to raise the debt limit.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 05:17 AM   #86
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They don't need a bargaining chip as long as dems don't have full control and we need to spend more money than we take in. The dems have to get the Republicans to agree to raise the debt limit.
Approval ratings for congressional Republicans is just about in the toilet already. If we get into another standoff it's going to once again reflect very badly on them.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 05:39 AM   #87
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The rich should be marginalised, there aren't very many of them. They don't deserve to have any more say than anyone else - and certainly not significantly more.



To be fair, lots of rich people have pretty large issues getting on in life.
They sure do, but lacking money is not one of them.

I say this as someone from a fairly wealthy family, these people do not need anyone's pity, I know I certainly don't and my corner of the family isn't where all the money is.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 05:57 AM   #88
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Approval ratings for congressional Republicans is just about in the toilet already. If we get into another standoff it's going to once again reflect very badly on them.
The districts these Republicans are voted in from want the government to stop spending more than they take in. National approval ratings don't matter to them as long as they are elected.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 06:03 AM   #89
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The districts these Republicans are voted in from want the government to stop spending more than they take in. National approval ratings don't matter to them as long as they are elected.
Maybe not stable districts, but it could ultimately affect in the hotly contested ones. Especially as their constituents realize that the things Republicans want to cut are things they actually like.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 07:04 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
The districts these Republicans are voted in from want the government to stop spending more than they take in. National approval ratings don't matter to them as long as they are elected.
Many would argue that in a representative republic style of government, politicians are elected to represent their constituents and not take into account national approval ratings.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 07:35 AM   #91
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The districts these Republicans are voted in from want the government to stop spending more than they take in. National approval ratings don't matter to them as long as they are elected.
That is more of a result of how our district are rigged. They only have to worry about the extreme part of their party and then say screw 40+% of the people they represent
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 08:54 AM   #92
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Maybe not stable districts, but it could ultimately affect in the hotly contested ones. Especially as their constituents realize that the things Republicans want to cut are things they actually like.
^^ THIS is why the GOP refused to accept anything the White House proposed. They insisted that the President negotiate against himself and make concessions without any demands. The GOP knows it cannot propose massive spending cuts with any detail because people do like the things the GOP wants to cut. They keep hoping that the Democrats will make an offer of cuts they have always wanted (The GOP has been trying to cut and destroy medicare/SS since way before there was ever a so-called "debt-crisis." This is just an "excuse" to do what they have always wanted.)
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 09:45 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
We are still going over the cliff. This agreement does NOTHING to fix that. Are any of you actually paying attention?

The deficit is $1.3T a year. That's spending $6B a day MORE than we are bringing in. This agreement saves $600B over TEN YEARS, and its heavily loaded on the back end, meaning 2013 savings are only estimated at $20B.

That's a saving of 6 DAYS spending.

The cliff is still here. We fall over it 6 days later than expected.

Feel better now? Your government just did NOTHING to fix the problem, but you are lauding them on their vision and how well they are screwing those uber-rich?
Well said.

What you say is true and puts the fiscal cliff issue in perspective but still very very very very unimportant compared to the one thing congress is mandated to do which is set a budget. One number I heard on the radio was that on the budget we saved just 0.87% percent which is almost an insult. Why doesn't Obama or Boehner make a stink about the lack of a working budget?

Things like the cliff and debt ceiling are still open to interpretation and things congress can tweak and legislate away, like CNN was mentioning last night, but there is no going around the fact that each year congress has just one job they have to do which is the budget and though that is due in September 2013, we didn't figure out the last three years. Each year you either get a budget passed or you don't. The factors don't change here of a full year with its 12 months, congress which is made up of paid elected officials, and passing a budget which is their one mandatory job for that pay. We can't all of a sudden retroactively pass a budget today for the last three years.

Everything from the cliff to the debt ceiling to figuring out our deficit is based on yearly budget. Nothing can be done in terms of determining accountability unless there is a budget. Social security is expensive, the two wars are expensive, politicians make too much or too little, but compared to what? What is our budget this year? The fiscal cliff was more than a quaint news story by comparison and if we honestly want to get upset over congress then look at their failure to come up with budget for three years. If there's anything that warrants congress getting kicked out, it should be the inability to come up with a budget. If not that extreme, then stop payment on their checks until they pass a budget. What other job in the world gives you a whole year to have to do just ONE thing?

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Old Jan 2, 2013, 09:50 AM   #94
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The fiscal cliff was more than a quaint news story by comparison and if we honestly want to get upset over congress then look at their failure to come up with budget for three years.
We have a budget, and we have been operating under said budget legally with continuing resolutions. In fact, the amount being spent each year is less than that contained within the budget (mainly because the last budget we had was the exploded budget created as the recession was getting into full swing).
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 10:04 AM   #95
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We have a budget, and we have been operating under said budget legally with continuing resolutions. In fact, the amount being spent each year is less than that contained within the budget (mainly because the last budget we had was the exploded budget created as the recession was getting into full swing).
I know you are a tax attorney and you understand DC, but why would CNN do a whole thing on us not having a budget for THREE years straight?

I am no expert on this, but do we have a bird's eye yearly budget of everything put together, or is it a department by department thing? And why September each year? But worst of all, if this is as big as Anderson Cooper and CNN claims, then why hasn't the one job congress is mandated to do not covered as the biggest DC story in the press? This just kills me.

I do know the press likes to simplify things and make problems appear worse than they really are, but isn't the yearly budget the metric all is compared to? And with Grover Norquist being there, even his bizarre and controlling ways took a backseat to the do nothing congress and their lack of budget for over 1,000 days.

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Old Jan 2, 2013, 10:17 AM   #96
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I know you are a tax attorney and you understand DC, but why would CNN do a whole thing on us not having a budget for THREE years straight?
CNN is correct that there hasn't been a NEW budget, but we are operating our government and paying our bills under continuing resolutions, which operate as an extension of a past budget. The reason that is working is because President Obama is shrinking the size of the government and spending, and therefore a new, larger budget has been unnecessary. A lot of shuffling of money and adjustments on the executive side are being made, but as long as the economy grows (higher revenue) and the deficit is shrinking from the high water mark, we don't have a crisis.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 10:22 AM   #97
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I know you are a tax attorney and you understand DC, but why would CNN do a whole thing on us not having a budget for THREE years straight?

I am no expert on this, but do we have a bird's eye yearly budget of everything put together, or is it a department by department thing? And why September each year? But worst of all, if this is as big as Anderson Cooper and CNN claims, then why hasn't the one job congress is mandated to do not covered as the biggest DC story in the press? This just kills me.

I do know the press likes to simplify things and make problems appear worse than they really are, but isn't the yearly budget the metric all is compared to? And with Grover Norquist being there, even his bizarre and controlling ways took a backseat to the do nothing congress and their lack of budget for over 1,000 days.

Really? You think CNN has much credibility? IMO, they are a big part of the problem. In their effort to be the not-FOX, not-MSNBC channel, they contort themselves into some false equivalency between the Ds and Rs.

There is no budget because unless you have 60 votes in the Senate or the House cooperating, you can't pass a budget in the Senate. So we're operating under an old budget with continuing resolutions. So please spare me the Republican talking point of no budget passed in 1,000 some odd days.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 10:48 AM   #98
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Another thing I like about the deal is that this issue is too big to deal with one huge bill or we get something like the ACA. The "fiscal cliff" needs to be dealt with one step at a time. They dealt with the tax issue and now they can get down to the spending cuts. And I'm glad the Republicans got the 3 month kick of the can instead of the Democrats 1 year kick of the can.

Hopefully the spending cuts are equal between Defense spending and entitlement programs.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 10:57 AM   #99
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Hopefully the spending cuts are equal between Defense spending and entitlement programs.
(Almost) Every penny you take from entitlement programs comes directly out of the economy and will result in an immediate economic contraction. In addition to the overall economic effects, almost every penny taken from entitlement programs are pennies that are intended to help the poorest and most vulnerable of our society.

A more reasonable solution might be to really revisit the healthcare cost debate and perhaps consider more sweeping changes. We might also want to consider increasing the cutoff for SS contributions so that income over ~$150,000 is also taxed. Maybe implement means testing so needed benefits are preferred to unneeded benefits.

There is also a lot of fraud, abuse, and waste that can be cut without cutting benefits. I point that out because it is clear that the GOP has desired cutting entitlement programs for decades; long before the "debt crisis," and this may merely be yet another excuse to cut and/or destroy social programs.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 10:59 AM   #100
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CNN is correct that there hasn't been a NEW budget, but we are operating our government and paying our bills under continuing resolutions, which operate as an extension of a past budget. The reason that is working is because President Obama is shrinking the size of the government and spending, and therefore a new, larger budget has been unnecessary. A lot of shuffling of money and adjustments on the executive side are being made, but as long as the economy grows (higher revenue) and the deficit is shrinking from the high water mark, we don't have a crisis.
Thanks for the info. It's amazing CNN doesn't mention this.
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