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Old Jan 4, 2013, 12:11 PM   #76
hulugu
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Maybe not, but again.....if it's that dang important they can get their own bill. This is like shopping with a credit card and snapping up all of the little extra things the store has for sale up by the register just because it could be useful down the road. Sure.....who couldn't use extra chapstick and batteries.
Sure, but if you need ChapStick or fresh batteries, these expenditures are suddenly sound investments. Likewise, some of the spending in the Sandy Bill seems appropriate despite being marked as pork.

In reading the list again, I think upgrades or repairs to Guantanamo Bay belongs to the Defense Department's budget, let them figure out how to repair their own damned facilities. And, likewise, the spending on NOAA also should be, as you said, its own bill.

I'm not defending earmarks or "pork" rather I'm arguing that what people will often argue is pork is actually necessary, if indirect, spending.

Separating these expenditures out would be the right thing to do if we had a government that was capable of governing. Right now, we can't pass a major budget, what kind of fight would we have over NOAA funding.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:07 PM   #77
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I am hoping this money makes it's way down the chain fast. It's been 2 months and the government has been dragging it's feet on getting anything done.
I agree. I think it taking two months has been pretty pathetic. They should have done a congressional 'walk through' so they could see the utter and complete damage the storm did and how crappy people's lives have been because of it.

The rest of the world moved on, but for those in the heart of the storm, they are reminded of it every day and every day the suffer because of it.

While we can debate on what the functions of the government are, IMO disaster response is one which seems to be mostly agreed upon. Yet the government has shown complete incompetency here. IMO the variance in response to these types of disasters suggests a different 'hard protocol' be developed. That is, something that can go into affect immediately whether is be a 'disaster change purse' granted to each state or something.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:13 PM   #78
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Regardless of where your politics on this issue are, the $60B to fund the entire bill is what the fiscal cliff deal brings in via higher taxes in 2013. There goes that!
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:20 PM   #79
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Regardless of where your politics on this issue are, the $60B to fund the entire bill is what the fiscal cliff deal brings in via higher taxes in 2013. There goes that!
Flood insurance is mandated by FEMA for anyone living in flood prone areas. You have no choice but to buy flood insurance from the government. Now that everyone who paid $2000 a year for the insurance are putting claims in the government has to fund it.

Last year we got money back from Irene within a few months. Sandy was so much bigger and hit so much of a larger area that it is taking a lot more money and time to fund.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:26 PM   #80
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Regardless of where your politics on this issue are, the $60B to fund the entire bill is what the fiscal cliff deal brings in via higher taxes in 2013. There goes that!
But IMO this is one of the reasons we pay tax to begin with, so that order can be enforced and reestablished when things like this occur, and so infrastructure can be rebuilt, and commerce can rebuild and pick up where it left off.

Don't get me wrong...I think money is wasted, many government programs self-sustain rather than serve a purpose, and accountability is lacking. However, to me, emergency response is one of the pillars of having a government, similar to having a military.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:28 PM   #81
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But IMO this is one of the reasons we pay tax to begin with, so that order can be enforced and reestablished when things like this occur, and so infrastructure can be rebuilt, and commerce can rebuild and pick up where it left off.

Don't get me wrong...I think money is wasted, many government programs self-sustain rather than serve a purpose, and accountability is lacking. However, to me, emergency response is one of the pillars of having a government, similar to having a military.
We rebuilt New Orleans, 8 feet below sea level, if any place should have been moved to higher ground that was it. New York City can't be moved to higher ground but it will take 70 billion just to make a proper sea wall.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:37 PM   #82
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We rebuild New Orleans, 8 feet below sea level, if any place should have been moved to hire ground that was it. New York City can't be moved to higher ground but it will take 70 billion just to make a proper sea wall.
Okay, New Orleans is definitely a weird case. It has me scratching my head as well. I agree with you it is strange that they rebuilt so much in areas that eventually will be covered in water and years away may be covered from a tide-rise.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:41 PM   #83
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Okay, New Orleans is definitely a weird case. It has me scratching my head as well. I agree with you it is strange that they rebuilt so much in areas that eventually will be covered in water and years away may be covered from a tide-rise.
The government is in a catch 22. They don't want people building near the coast but love the tax money that building near the coast brings. Beach front is all about taxes in the eyes of the government.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:51 PM   #84
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But IMO this is one of the reasons we pay tax to begin with, so that order can be enforced and reestablished when things like this occur, and so infrastructure can be rebuilt, and commerce can rebuild and pick up where it left off.

Don't get me wrong...I think money is wasted, many government programs self-sustain rather than serve a purpose, and accountability is lacking. However, to me, emergency response is one of the pillars of having a government, similar to having a military.
It's all one bucket and is already spent. My point is that the $60B that we spent so much time arguing over is already gone.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 02:00 PM   #85
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Beach front is all about taxes in the eyes of the government.
I've noticed this myself. They looooooooove the income they bring in.



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It's all one bucket and is already spent. My point is that the $60B that we spent so much time arguing over is already gone.
I get what you are saying now. And yeah, that stinks.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 02:31 PM   #86
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Looking at your Congress all I see are two deeply entrenched parties, what you need is more bipartisanship, not more fanatical drum beating. Holding up disaster relief because of party politics, is a scumbag thing to do. These are your own people, what kind of message does this send to the rest of the world.

I would have thought that the Republican party would have learnt from November's defeat.

The extreme right of the GOP is why so many outside America, no longer look to you for any sort of leadership, in any thing.
You cannot get proper disaster relief for your own population in NYC/and metropolitan area, after nine weeks. This is beyond a joke this is criminal.
This-
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/04/opinio...html?hpt=hp_t2
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Old Jan 5, 2013, 01:16 AM   #87
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Regardless of where your politics on this issue are, the $60B to fund the entire bill is what the fiscal cliff deal brings in via higher taxes in 2013. There goes that!
Except the return comes in the end of the 10 year bill, which means for 2013 it's more like $20B, not $60B
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Old Jan 5, 2013, 11:03 AM   #88
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We rebuilt New Orleans, 8 feet below sea level, if any place should have been moved to higher ground that was it. New York City can't be moved to higher ground but it will take 70 billion just to make a proper sea wall.


[/COLOR]
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Okay, New Orleans is definitely a weird case. It has me scratching my head as well. I agree with you it is strange that they rebuilt so much in areas that eventually will be covered in water and years away may be covered from a tide-rise.
That's absolutely nothing try a country of 16,039 sq miles, most of which is under sea level, we call in HOME, the rest of the world calls it the Netherlands.
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Old Jan 5, 2013, 11:06 AM   #89
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That's absolutely nothing try a country of 16,039 sq miles, most of which is under sea level, we call in HOME, the rest of the world calls it the Netherlands.
Clearly you should all move to higher ground.
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Old Jan 5, 2013, 09:10 PM   #90
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[/COLOR]

That's absolutely nothing try a country of 16,039 sq miles, most of which is under sea level, we call in HOME, the rest of the world calls it the Netherlands.
The Netherlands has implemented flood control systems that are 10000000000000000x more advanced than what is used in New Orleans. I've spent hours reading up about the research, planning, infrastructure, and coordination your country did after a few very, very deadly floods. It's made me wonder why we haven't given it anywhere near the prioritization that you have. Perhaps your initiatives, which are considered to have written the book on flood control, came about because so much of your country is below sea level where as very little of the US is?? I don't know.

You tackled the flood issue and then rebuilt. We've rebuilt without tackling the flood issue (and money is very tight which means it will be given the back burner). You've planned your flood control to compensate for a rise in sea level. We're not even thinking about that yet. Hell, you even have houses and highways that float. Most people think that's something you see in a fiction movie about the future. So my assertion that it is a weird case was intended to apply specifically to New Orleans and not the Netherlands. The logic of rebuilding in an area that it vulnerable before sufficient effort is made to reduce vulnerability is something I do not understand.
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Old Jan 5, 2013, 10:24 PM   #91
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The Netherlands has implemented flood control systems that are 10000000000000000x more advanced than what is used in New Orleans. I've spent hours reading up about the research, planning, infrastructure, and coordination your country did after a few very, very deadly floods. It's made me wonder why we haven't given it anywhere near the prioritization that you have. Perhaps your initiatives, which are considered to have written the book on flood control, came about because so much of your country is below sea level where as very little of the US is?? I don't know.

You tackled the flood issue and then rebuilt. We've rebuilt without tackling the flood issue (and money is very tight which means it will be given the back burner). You've planned your flood control to compensate for a rise in sea level. We're not even thinking about that yet. Hell, you even have houses and highways that float. Most people think that's something you see in a fiction movie about the future. So my assertion that it is a weird case was intended to apply specifically to New Orleans and not the Netherlands. The logic of rebuilding in an area that it vulnerable before sufficient effort is made to reduce vulnerability is something I do not understand.
My comments was meant to be taken as a joke.

But it is true that after the flooding of 1953, there was a real radical plan called the Delta Plan.

There is a very old saying here in Europe.
'God made both the land and the sea, but the Dutch, built the Netherlands'
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Old Jan 5, 2013, 11:23 PM   #92
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My comments was meant to be taken as a joke.

But it is true that after the flooding of 1953, there was a real radical plan called the Delta Plan.

There is a very old saying here in Europe.
'God made both the land and the sea, but the Dutch, built the Netherlands'
I missed that...it's sometimes hard to detect satire

The Delta Plan is IMO one of the most spectacular accomplishments by man in modern time. Very few megaprojects have done something so unique and so successfully, nor have they been so spread out time-wise and phase-wise. The coordination and organization involved is mind-blowing (I do a lot of logistics planning and despite the fact that I work with organizing big things into smaller ones on a daily basis, I am still overwhelmed). I mean, it literally rewrote the book on our understanding of flooding and flood control measures.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 03:14 AM   #93
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I missed that...it's sometimes hard to detect satire

The Delta Plan is IMO one of the most spectacular accomplishments by man in modern time. Very few megaprojects have done something so unique and so successfully, nor have they been so spread out time-wise and phase-wise. The coordination and organization involved is mind-blowing (I do a lot of logistics planning and despite the fact that I work with organizing big things into smaller ones on a daily basis, I am still overwhelmed). I mean, it literally rewrote the book on our understanding of flooding and flood control measures.
That's OK I should have used an Emo Con
I don't want to derail this thread, but on a personal note.
The Delta plan made one of my childhood friends family into multi Millionaires, just by supplying sand and grind to the project.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 06:05 PM   #94
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That's OK I should have used an Emo Con
I don't want to derail this thread, but on a personal note.
The Delta plan made one of my childhood friends family into multi Millionaires, just by supplying sand and grind to the project.
Nothing wrong with rich friends.
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