Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jan 4, 2013, 12:30 PM   #251
Rodimus Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
History that's easy to remember or search for if you don't is all I need to back up not a claim but a fact.

Windows XP ran PROGrams from a PROGrams menu shortcut in the START menu while the Mac ran APPlications launched from the APPlications folder they reside in.[COLOR="#808080"]
I would like to point out if you ever dug threw MS folder structure you would see that they had folders with titles like Application data, I know it was in windows 95 and XP. Now general user may not see is but in the industry among devs App and Applications was a commonly used term.

Just because the general public did not use the terms does not change the fact it has been a generic term for a very VERY long time. Heck I know the term was used in the 80's when refering to Lotus 123. Lotus was called a Killer APP. OMG that App word was used in the 80's...... It is generic end of story.
Rodimus Prime is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4, 2013, 12:33 PM   #252
Foxykhat
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
I've been around longer than you then. Because I remember the world before the iPhone and before Apple made Apps "popular"

Not to mention - since this thread is about the App Store (not apps) I still say the popularity for virtual stores as far as Apple is concerned is the name iTunes.

Ask most people where they get their apps - they say I downloaded it off iTunes. How many people do you really know say I got it on the app store? Or Apple's appstore. Be honest. I'm not trying to antagonize - sincerely.

Almost everyone I know says they download things off iTunes. I bought it on iTunes. Check this app out on iTunes. Is that on iTunes? Very rarely do I (personally) ever hear anyone refer it to an app store
Who are these peoples? And where do I find them? Clearly must be a small selected few who are ignorant to not needing iTunes. In fact since my introductions to "apple" (I won't say exactly when) I have always heard of the apps being bought and or downloaded through the "app store" rather than as you claim "iTunes"

Also (even if it is not a far back as some would like) I have never bought any of my apps through itunes but directly through the app store.

Then again maybe I'm the one that's in the minority.

Foxy
Foxykhat is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4, 2013, 12:39 PM   #253
Geckotek
macrumors G3
 
Geckotek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kludge420 View Post
My point: "Microsoft, who owns a generic trademark, is complaining about another generic trademark."

You could argue that I'm wrong but you can't argue that I'm irrelevant for the very reason that I'm making it relevant by implying, "Aren't these two similar?"
"Windows" was not a generic term related to operating systems; so no, they are not similar.
__________________
Gecko Art | Facebook | flickr
Geckotek is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4, 2013, 02:06 PM   #254
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geckotek View Post
"Windows" was not a generic term related to operating systems; so no, they are not similar.
Leave him, after arguing for a page that he's not the one who brought up that completely irrelevant issue, he admits he's the one that brought up that completely irrelevant issue, demonstration at the same time that has no grasp on the situation and doesn't understand the distinction of trademarking descriptive terms vs simply trademarking generic words.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxykhat View Post
What you posted is a whole different kettle of fish. Now if Apple tried to patent the word "application" I could see your points. However, what we are looking at are the words "APP STORE" are in relation to the selling of "APPLICATIONS" in an online store". A shorten/variation of the word "Application", to give their product's name specific ring.
You're going back to the "App" thing. The point is, App Store is descriptive of what it is, a store that sell apps. Apps is not something that's exclusive to Apple nor is it something Apple coined in 2008. Perusing this forum alone will provide plenty of examples.

So no, Apple does not have any rights to App Store, same as Walgreens shouldn't rename their stores "Drug Store" and trademark that name.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4, 2013, 05:36 PM   #255
Lennholm
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxykhat View Post
I'm puzzled with the Apple should not have been allowed to trademark the work "APP STORE"

If there a specific thing/store that's created to sell "APPS" and you call it "APP STORE" shouldn't you be allowed to at least protect that, whether words are generic or not?!!!
That would make sense if Apple had the patent on the concept of an app store (i.e. a platform for selling applications, as understood by everyone), but that would be even more ridiculous.
The problem with the phrase "app store" is, as many have pointed out, its descriptive function in combination with its generic meaning and thus shouldn't be trademarkable.

Quote:
Take for example "CABLE & WIRELESS" a telephone company. Should they not be allowed to trademark the words "Cable" and or "Wireless"?!
Of course not, are you being sarcastic?
Lennholm is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 06:12 AM   #256
barkmonster
macrumors 68000
 
barkmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lancashire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
I would like to point out if you ever dug threw MS folder structure you would see that they had folders with titles like Application data, I know it was in windows 95 and XP. Now general user may not see is but in the industry among devs App and Applications was a commonly used term.

Just because the general public did not use the terms does not change the fact it has been a generic term for a very VERY long time. Heck I know the term was used in the 80's when refering to Lotus 123. Lotus was called a Killer APP. OMG that App word was used in the 80's...... It is generic end of story.
Sure I covered the irelevance of file structure and industry naming previously with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
It's REALLY SIMPLE.

Want to launch software on a Mac?

Go to the "APPlications" folder shortcut

Want to launch software on a PC?

Go to the "START" menu and choose "PROGrams"

GET IT NOW?

It's irrelevant if some software "APPlication/PROGram (as opposed to programme)" uses some system file structure for it's support files that includes the word "application" or "app" in one of it's subfolders if the "APPlication/PROGram (as opposed to programme)" is launched from a menu called "Programs".

Apple spent a long time using the phrase, "There's an App for that" to market the iPhone, iOS is based on Mac OS X which in turn inherited interface similiarities from the classic Mac OS. One consistent feature of which is that ALL SOFTWARE is refered to as "APPlications" and resides in a folder called "APPlications" for just that reason.

Want to know what the file extension is on Mac OS X for "APPlications"?

Go to your "APPlications" folder, select any "APPlication" and go to "Get Info".

Look! Right under "Name & Extension:" it says "[APPlication name].APP"

Wonder why that is?

Could it be that it's an "APPlication"?


I'm talking about INTERFACE naming conventions that are just as synonymous with PLATFORM naming conventions.

The Mac INTERFACE on Apple's PLATFORM has referred to software as APPLICATIONS since the very first Mac, iOS is basically mobile Mac OS X and APPs are logically the shortened term for APPLICATIONS.

The Windows INTERFACE on Microsoft's PLATFORM has, until Windows 8, ALWAYS in the most recognisable, synonymous way referred to software as PROGRAMS. Easily verified by going to the PROGRAMS menu and launching a PROGRAM.

I don't get why people keep spouting nonsense about file systems and obscure folder names, it's irrelevant to the point of the whole thread.
__________________
16Gb iPhone 5 • 2.53Ghz Mac Mini (8Gb, 60Gb Vertex 2) • Icy Box IB-328U3SEb with Toshiba DT01ACA300 HDD
Mbox2 • LG W2343T • Samsung SyncMaster 913n
barkmonster is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 07:31 AM   #257
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
I don't get why people keep spouting nonsense about file systems and obscure folder names, it's irrelevant to the point of the whole thread.
So his yours. People are just telling you you have no point and that if you do, it's quite irrelevant to the thread.

So why don't you quit ?
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 08:38 AM   #258
Asia8
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
http://www.dotsauce.com/2011/08/26/h...omment-page-1/

Wait, Wait, Wait!?! Does this say that Apple used the name App Store while it was trademarked by others? And only after this believed that suddenly this name was worthy of having trademark right respected, once the shoe was on the other foot?

I just wish the US Govt. would un-trademark "Ugg boots" too, that's truly unfair.
Asia8 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 10:58 AM   #259
Rodimus Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
Sure I covered the irelevance of file structure and industry naming previously with this:




I'm talking about INTERFACE naming conventions that are just as synonymous with PLATFORM naming conventions.

The Mac INTERFACE on Apple's PLATFORM has referred to software as APPLICATIONS since the very first Mac, iOS is basically mobile Mac OS X and APPs are logically the shortened term for APPLICATIONS.

The Windows INTERFACE on Microsoft's PLATFORM has, until Windows 8, ALWAYS in the most recognisable, synonymous way referred to software as PROGRAMS. Easily verified by going to the PROGRAMS menu and launching a PROGRAM.

I don't get why people keep spouting nonsense about file systems and obscure folder names, it's irrelevant to the point of the whole thread.
We keep hitting because clearly you do not understand what generic is. If it is generic to the people in the industry it us generic plan and simple. The folder structure proves that point. That is why it is brought up. All the Apple did was bring the term more to the masses mouths but does not change the fact it is a generic
You did not address my point about killer app which is from the 80's as well
Rodimus Prime is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 11:25 AM   #260
Lennholm
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
Sure I covered the irelevance of file structure and industry naming previously with this:




I'm talking about INTERFACE naming conventions that are just as synonymous with PLATFORM naming conventions.

The Mac INTERFACE on Apple's PLATFORM has referred to software as APPLICATIONS since the very first Mac, iOS is basically mobile Mac OS X and APPs are logically the shortened term for APPLICATIONS.

The Windows INTERFACE on Microsoft's PLATFORM has, until Windows 8, ALWAYS in the most recognisable, synonymous way referred to software as PROGRAMS. Easily verified by going to the PROGRAMS menu and launching a PROGRAM.

I don't get why people keep spouting nonsense about file systems and obscure folder names, it's irrelevant to the point of the whole thread.
Why do you think you can cherry pick what uses of the term YOU consider to be relevant? It seems like you're trying to argue that Apple invented the terms "application" and its abbreviation "app" on the basis that Microsoft only used it in more obscure places.
Apple did not coin these terms and this isn't even debatable. Fact is, "application" and "app" have been used for a long time and it doesn't matter that it was mostly used by non-consumers and in places of Windows that, in your opinion, is never seen by consumers; Apple did not invent the terms.

This is all completely irrelevant to this discussion anyway since it's a fact that Apple doesn't own "application" or "app" and this isn't a discussion about whether Apple popularized the words or not, it's a discussion about whether Apple should be allowed to own the descriptive and non-specific term "app store".
Lennholm is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 03:41 PM   #261
Oletros
macrumors 601
 
Oletros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Premiΰ de Mar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennholm View Post
Why do you think you can cherry pick what uses of the term YOU consider to be relevant? It seems like you're trying to argue that Apple invented the terms "application" and its abbreviation "app" on the basis that Microsoft only used it in more obscure places.
And since MSDOS Microsoft has used the term application in the user manuals instead of programs
__________________
There are four kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, statistics, and analyst projections.
Oletros is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5, 2013, 10:56 PM   #262
kdarling
macrumors Demi-God
 
kdarling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Device engineer 30+ yrs, touchscreens 23+.
"Application" itself is pretty old, dating back to fairly early computer days.

Click image for larger version

Name:	1960_applications.png
Views:	16
Size:	106.4 KB
ID:	388248

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oletros View Post
And since MSDOS Microsoft has used the term application in the user manuals instead of programs
Not to mention in Windows folder headings:

Click image for larger version

Name:	windows_apps.png
Views:	9
Size:	7.8 KB
ID:	388246

I've pointed out before that mobile magazines used "app" for a long time:

Click image for larger version

Name:	2000_mobile_apps.png
Views:	10
Size:	54.5 KB
ID:	388247

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asia8 View Post
http://www.dotsauce.com/2011/08/26/h...omment-page-1/

Wait, Wait, Wait!?! Does this say that Apple used the name App Store while it was trademarked by others? And only after this believed that suddenly this name was worthy of having trademark right respected, once the shoe was on the other foot?
EVERYONE SHOULD READ THAT LINK. Apparently an admirer of Jobs owned the AppStore trademark at the time that Apple announced their store in 2008.

For that matter, another company called SAGE Networks owned "AppStore" even before him, back in 1998:

Click image for larger version

Name:	1998_appstore_trademark.png
Views:	11
Size:	16.7 KB
ID:	388252

Last edited by kdarling; Jan 5, 2013 at 11:20 PM.
kdarling is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 7, 2013, 10:49 AM   #263
Fandongo
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
But I also don't blame Apple for trying to get / enforce the trademark.
Also, a cease and desist order has been sent to all new babies named Steve (and a preemptive threat to all Stevens).
__________________
"There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it."
Fandongo is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 02:35 PM   #264
barkmonster
macrumors 68000
 
barkmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lancashire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennholm View Post
Why do you think you can cherry pick what uses of the term YOU consider to be relevant? It seems like you're trying to argue that Apple invented the terms "application" and its abbreviation "app" on the basis that Microsoft only used it in more obscure places.
Apple did not coin these terms and this isn't even debatable. Fact is, "application" and "app" have been used for a long time and it doesn't matter that it was mostly used by non-consumers and in places of Windows that, in your opinion, is never seen by consumers; Apple did not invent the terms
I don't know why this arrogant nonsense keeps being repeated. The simple fact is, until the iPhone popularised the term "app" as it refers to software and until Microsoft brought out Windows 8, including the mobile version, Apple operating system ALWAYS refered to software under the generic term, APPlications, Microsoft refered to software on their platform under the generic term, Programs and this is regardless of file structure/nit picking.

I'm not disputing that it's a generic term, I'm simply saying it only became the norm to refer to ALL software, regardless of platform as APPs since Apple's "There's an App for that" marketing for the iPhone.

It's not difficult to grasp this fact.
__________________
16Gb iPhone 5 • 2.53Ghz Mac Mini (8Gb, 60Gb Vertex 2) • Icy Box IB-328U3SEb with Toshiba DT01ACA300 HDD
Mbox2 • LG W2343T • Samsung SyncMaster 913n

Last edited by barkmonster; Jan 8, 2013 at 02:48 PM.
barkmonster is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 02:58 PM   #265
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
It's not difficult to grasp this fact.
The only one having difficulty grasping anything is you. Stop ressurecting the thread with your drivel that's been proven false again, and again, and again. Just see kdarling's post, just 2 posts above yours.

And stop posting this nonsense.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:20 PM   #266
Renzatic
macrumors 604
 
Renzatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wisdom mule sez: there are literally zero jungles in Vermont.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
The only one having difficulty grasping anything is you. Stop ressurecting the thread with your drivel that's been proven false again, and again, and again. Just see kdarling's post, just 2 posts above yours.

And stop posting this nonsense.
Kdarling's post doesn't prove anything! I didn't hear about apps until that one Apple commercial, so I'll keep posting the same argument over and over and over again until you go away and I win by default!
Renzatic is online now   7 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:22 PM   #267
samcraig
macrumors G5
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
I am reminded of this scene...

http://youtu.be/qQGgaI-BcI4
samcraig is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:38 PM   #268
barkmonster
macrumors 68000
 
barkmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lancashire
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
The only one having difficulty grasping anything is you. Stop ressurecting the thread with your drivel that's been proven false again, and again, and again. Just see kdarling's post, just 2 posts above yours.

And stop posting this nonsense.
The only nonsense is all the "look at this obscure folder", "look at this button on an old PDA" garbage that's NOTHING to do with a platform, mobile or otherwise referring to software as APPlications on a user level and I'll spell that out for you. Let's assume you occasionally use Firefox and have 2 systems, a Mac and PC, you haven't created a desktop short cut or put it in the dock/shortcuts. What folder do you go to to open it on the Mac? "Applications"! What menu do you go to to open it on a PC? "Programs"!

A simple, straightforward, OBVIOUS point that shouldn't need any explanation!
barkmonster is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:41 PM   #269
Renzatic
macrumors 604
 
Renzatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wisdom mule sez: there are literally zero jungles in Vermont.
Jesus, man. You only have to scroll up half a page to see the word "apps" being used in conjunction with Windows software.

Apple didn't invent it. Apple wasn't the first to use it. Apple doesn't deserve the trademark. End of story.
Renzatic is online now   5 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:50 PM   #270
samcraig
macrumors G5
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
The only nonsense is all the "look at this obscure folder", "look at this button on an old PDA" garbage that's NOTHING to do with a platform, mobile or otherwise referring to software as APPlications on a user level and I'll spell that out for you. Let's assume you occasionally use Firefox and have 2 systems, a Mac and PC, you haven't created a desktop short cut or put it in the dock/shortcuts. What folder do you go to to open it on the Mac? "Applications"! What menu do you go to to open it on a PC? "Programs"!

A simple, straightforward, OBVIOUS point that shouldn't need any explanation!
Sorry - but I would equate your "proof point" just as irrelevant as every other random comment.

Your argument has no weight whatsoever on the story/ruling. In short - this thread has nothing to do with who made the word popular. The ruling is about the trademark of app store. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.
samcraig is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:06 PM   #271
Lennholm
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
I don't know why this arrogant nonsense keeps being repeated. The simple fact is, until the iPhone popularised the term "app" as it refers to software and until Microsoft brought out Windows 8, including the mobile version, Apple operating system ALWAYS refered to software under the generic term, APPlications, Microsoft refered to software on their platform under the generic term, Programs and this is regardless of file structure/nit picking.

I'm not disputing that it's a generic term, I'm simply saying it only became the norm to refer to ALL software, regardless of platform as APPs since Apple's "There's an App for that" marketing for the iPhone.

It's not difficult to grasp this fact.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make, exactly. Are you claiming that the fact that the word became more common in use among consumers after Apple launched their App store is grounds for them to get the trademark for the descriptive and non-specific term "app store" (which is what this discussion is about) or are you simply making the point that it became more common in use among consumers after Apple launched their app store (which is off topic to this discussion)?
Lennholm is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:21 PM   #272
barkmonster
macrumors 68000
 
barkmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lancashire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lennholm View Post
I don't understand what point you're trying to make, exactly. Are you claiming that the fact that the word became more common in use among consumers after Apple launched their App store is grounds for them to get the trademark for the descriptive and non-specific term "app store" (which is what this discussion is about
That's exactly what I'm saying and I'm citing the long history of, on a user level, Apple operating systems have always run Applications, other platforms have run Program's and only since the iPhone and subsequent popularity of calling all software Apps, have other companies jumped on the bandwagon. It's who came first to popularise the term that's the issue.
barkmonster is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:31 PM   #273
Rodimus Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
The only nonsense is all the "look at this obscure folder", "look at this button on an old PDA" garbage that's NOTHING to do with a platform, mobile or otherwise referring to software as APPlications on a user level and I'll spell that out for you. Let's assume you occasionally use Firefox and have 2 systems, a Mac and PC, you haven't created a desktop short cut or put it in the dock/shortcuts. What folder do you go to to open it on the Mac? "Applications"! What menu do you go to to open it on a PC? "Programs"!

A simple, straightforward, OBVIOUS point that shouldn't need any explanation!
And we have counter this multiple times.

Generic term does not mean that the general public has to use it that way. Your argument is based on the fact that it is not generic unless the public used it that way and that is the problem. The most the iphone did was make App store popular. Also btw blackberry owners call their app on their phone Apps. Damn that was before iOS and the iPhone as well. So again your entire argument is breaking down.
If a term is used by the industry and people in the industry generically then it is Generic. Those hidden folders is what shoes that fact. Us programmers and developers tend to use pretty easy to remember and generic names in anything that little deeper.

Also you have failed to address the term Killer APP which is from the 80's and talks about Lotus 1-2-3. So we have the term App being used generically from the 80's and the general public knew it that way.
Rodimus Prime is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:36 PM   #274
Renzatic
macrumors 604
 
Renzatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wisdom mule sez: there are literally zero jungles in Vermont.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
Apple operating systems have always run Applications, other platforms have run Program's
That's where you're wrong. Applications and programs have been an interchangeable term since, I dunno...the 80's? You're hinging your whole argument on the small fact that Windows had a "program files" folder, and Apple and "application data" folder.

...which is a small distinction between two otherwise generic words. Apple didn't invent the word. It wasn't even used exclusively on Apple platforms. It's just that Apple decided to name the folder your stuff goes into one word instead of the other.
Renzatic is online now   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:40 PM   #275
samcraig
macrumors G5
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
It's who came first to popularise the term that's the issue.
But that's not the issue. That's the point.
samcraig is offline   5 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC