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Old Jan 5, 2013, 04:47 PM   #1
matteusclement
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Where does AE fit into my editing?

I'll build pretty basic videos in premiere cs6.
one I am done the edit (ie- everything in order & transitions) I will correct audio with audition in a round trip.
Then I will color correct and denoise and other clean ups.

I find my magic bullet denoiser about 100x faster in AE than in premiere. I do my color correcting in premiere too, but the speeds are mediocre.

THE QUESTION:
is color correcting in AE better than in Premiere? Do I have more options and better speeds?


I have a macpro 12 core with hd5770.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 12:03 AM   #2
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I'm no expert on this, but I find the color correcting options in After Effects to be surprisingly poor given how crucial color matching is for compositing. There's no color corrector 3 way, for instance. Lots of less-than-ideal stuff, apparently derived from Photoshop (curves, levels, HSL, etc.).

There's a third party plug in that's included (color finesse) that is impressive, but it's not integrated very well and I don't know how fast it is.

Fwiw, I tried neat video and far prefer it to magic bullet's denoiser, which is good but not nearly as good. I forget which is faster.

I tried Color (incompatible with Premier, I believe) for grading, and found it far superior to FCP and After Effects -- a totally different league. Resolve is even more powerful (and compatible with Premier) but its interface is even more of a pain, though quite similar. It seems pretty fast on a good system, such as yours, and the power and speed you get with a good Resolve system really puts any NLE to shame, but it's also a bit of a pain in the ass making the round trip work, especially when using red footage.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 01:17 AM   #3
ytk
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Originally Posted by Policar View Post
I'm no expert on this, but I find the color correcting options in After Effects to be surprisingly poor given how crucial color matching is for compositing.
After Effects is not a compositing program. It's primarily a motion graphics program, that has some compositing functionality built in. But it's really no more of a "compositor" than Premiere or Final Cut Pro, both of which also have some rudimentary compositing functionality. True, you can do quite a bit of compositing with After Effects, but that's not really what it's designed for, and its compositing workflow is pretty clunky compared to a true node-based compositor, of which Nuke and Shake would be examples.

Although getting back to these questions, none of these programs would really be great for color correction. Granted, you do have quite a lot of flexibility to do that in Nuke and Shake, but—like After Effects and Motion—these programs are oriented far more towards single shots than entire sequences.

Color is actually pretty good at what it does. It's a bit of an intimidating program at first, but once you come to terms with it it's surprisingly straightforward. If you can get a Quicktime and an EDL out of Premiere, you should be able to import that into Color. Transitions will be a bit of a pain if you work that way, unfortunately, since you'll only be able to correct both shots as a single clip. You'll have to export the clips for each transition with handles, then import them into Color, place them on the timeline, correct them, then export them back to Premiere to finish. The FCP7 <-> Color workflow is much slicker in this regard, but if you're in Premiere now you're probably stuck with it.

Of course, Resolve is quite good too—and free! I don't know if it has a great roundtrip workflow with Premiere, but if it does that's probably the way to go. Be forewarned, though: It's not an easy program to grasp. If you have any experience with color correction you can pick it up pretty quickly, but for the novice Color is much friendlier in my opinion.

Probably the best tip I can give to anyone interested in doing color correction is to really learn to read the scopes. The temptation is strong to "eyeball" things and just get them close enough, but you can end up screwing things up very quickly without a way of comparing shots using a standard reference for colors. The first project I did in Color, I had no idea how to use the scopes, and I found that what I thought looked good at the time really looked silly and cartoonish when I had finished the reel and came back to look at it. Once I learned to use the scopes properly, I was amazed at how useful they are: Given two completely different shots, you can get them about 90% of the way to matching each other just by looking at the scopes, without even seeing the shots!

Particularly useful is the vectorscope, which is the round one that shows you the color balance of the shot. Play around with the color wheels for a bit and note how moving each one (low, mid, and high) affects the color balance of the shot in the vectorscope. Pretty soon you'll be able to color match shots just by "feel" using primarily the vectorscope. It's a pretty cool feeling, and you'll find you're much faster and more confident with color correction once you're capable of doing so.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 01:47 AM   #4
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Speedgrade is Adobe's color correcting solution, and, (without drawing comparisons on quality, etc) the equivalent of Color from Apple. It also integrates with Premiere appropriately.

If you've got Master Collection or Production Premium, it's probably already installed on your computer.

The color correcting tools in After Effects are more geared toward getting elements in composites/motion graphics to match, and stylizing things for the purpose of motion graphics. More similar to the tools in Photoshop than a dedicated tool for color correction.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 10:30 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ytk View Post
After Effects is not a compositing program. It's primarily a motion graphics program, that has some compositing functionality built in. But it's really no more of a "compositor" than Premiere or Final Cut Pro, both of which also have some rudimentary compositing functionality. True, you can do quite a bit of compositing with After Effects, but that's not really what it's designed for, and its compositing workflow is pretty clunky compared to a true node-based compositor, of which Nuke and Shake would be examples.
Be sure to notify Adobe, then, who advertises After Effects as the "industry-standard solution for animation and compositing."

In fact, the first menu option in After Effects is "new composition."

And for something that's not a compositing program it certainly has a lot of compositing features: multiple keyers including a decent one built-in, linear tracking and roto in Mocha, 3d camera tracking in CS6, adjustment layers and precomposing to emulate some of the flexibility of a node-based interface, warp stabilize, etc. The availability of a lot of popular plug in libraries for After Effects and Nuke and Fusion confirms its frequent use for compositing, as does its popularity among Smoke and Nuke artists I know for less demanding projects. I've composited hundreds of shots in After Effects that have played on tv for audiences of millions... After Effects has been used for compositing for over a decade; it was even used to a limited extent on the Star Wars prequels.

It's not node based and its interface is designed primarily to support motion graphics, but don't think for a second After Effects isn't used for compositing. It's almost certainly the most popular compositing program there is. Final Cut and Premier? Not so much.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 10:56 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ytk View Post
After Effects is not a compositing program. It's primarily a motion graphics program, that has some compositing functionality built in. But it's really no more of a "compositor" than Premiere or Final Cut Pro, both of which also have some rudimentary compositing functionality. True, you can do quite a bit of compositing with After Effects, but that's not really what it's designed for, and its compositing workflow is pretty clunky compared to a true node-based compositor, of which Nuke and Shake would be examples.
How is it not designed for compositing? Thats what is primary function is....to put layers on top of other layers ... aka compositing.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 01:49 PM   #7
ytk
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Originally Posted by Policar View Post
Be sure to notify Adobe, then, who advertises After Effects as the "industry-standard solution for animation and compositing."
They can advertise it for whatever purpose they like. I'm not saying you can't do compositing in After Effects. It's just not really geared towards doing serious compositing work.

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Originally Posted by Policar View Post
It's not node based and its interface is designed primarily to support motion graphics, but don't think for a second After Effects isn't used for compositing. It's almost certainly the most popular compositing program there is.
Exactly. You just said the same thing I'm saying: "It's not node based and its interface is designed primarily to support motion graphics". Sure, it's used for compositing. It may well be the most widely-used tool for compositing work, in the sense that anybody who can download a pirated version of Creative Suite will eventually stumble on it and throw something together. However, for serious VFX compositing work, it is virtually unused in the industry, because it's just not designed for that purpose. It's a fine program, and it has its uses, but it's not a compositor. It's a motion graphics app that can do compositing. If it meets your needs, great. Ultimately, though, it will be limited in what it can do compared to a node-based compositor. I've used both After Effects and node-based compositors for a long time, and I can tell you that the difference is more than superficial.

Anyway, the point of all of this was that it seemed surprising that AE's color correction toolset was lacking, since color matching is crucial for compositing. My response is that AE was never designed with compositing in mind, even if it is capable of doing compositing work. Any color correction capabilities are designed with an eye towards motion graphics, not compositing, because all of After Effects is designed that way.

Honestly, if you don't have much experience with node-based compositing, you probably won't be able to understand the huge difference it makes, and what I mean when I say that After Effects isn't really designed for compositing. Before I picked up Shake, I didn't really see the advantage either, but I decided to learn it anyway. Now, I can't imagine ever going back to a layer-based application like AE for compositing.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 03:24 PM   #8
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Back the original question, I'd suggest giving Colorista a shot. You can get good results with it w/o having to learn a whole new program like SpeedGrade or Resolve and while you can color correct in AE color correction is not one of its strong suits.

If you start doing a lot of grading and/or more complex grades then you'll probably want to bite the bullet and learn a grading app.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 07:27 PM   #9
matteusclement
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Thanks for staying on track lethal.
Am I wrong in assuming that grading is the last step in my editting?

So you have:
colorista / looks
speedgrade
resolve
color (which is pretty awesome btw)

the other catch is that I have to work on both PC and mac, so i'd like a cross platform option.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 08:48 PM   #10
Policar
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Originally Posted by ytk View Post
Honestly, if you don't have much experience with node-based compositing, you probably won't be able to understand the huge difference it makes, and what I mean when I say that After Effects isn't really designed for compositing. Before I picked up Shake, I didn't really see the advantage either, but I decided to learn it anyway. Now, I can't imagine ever going back to a layer-based application like AE for compositing.
The interface isn't ideal, but Adobe has been pushing it for compositing and it's found a lot of traction. Beyond that it's semantics. I'm sure Nuke is dramatically better and I have used Shake a bit... if I ever try to get into vfx professionally I'll learn Nuke. I'm not arguing on behalf of After Effects as a great compositing program, except maybe for the price. My original point was simply that After Effects has particularly bad color adjustment options for software that's marketed for compositing. Weirdly enough, I remember reading that After Effects was used heavily to grade Shutter Island, though. Strange.

ytk, you wouldn't happen to know any tricks for mixing log (Alexa and F3 and transcoded Red) and linear footage (stock footage) in After Effects without faking the process using curves, levels, etc. would you? Any LUT utilities or options? I know Shake has a log to lin node and assuming Nuke has something similar. Just curious. I'm normally a casual user but have been tasked with this a lot recently and have been faking it using curves and HSL. Terrible, terrible form I'm sure, probably blatantly inept, but it worked given the circumstances. Would like to find a better option if one is available, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matteusclement View Post
Thanks for staying on track lethal.
Am I wrong in assuming that grading is the last step in my editting?

So you have:
colorista / looks
speedgrade
resolve
color (which is pretty awesome btw)

the other catch is that I have to work on both PC and mac, so i'd like a cross platform option.
Sometimes vfx are done before grading. Sometimes after. Sound is usually the last step. At least from what I've seen in smaller productions.

Resolve is a lot like Color, only better (faster, more compatible, more flexible, free, amazing tracker, cross platform), but the interface is a pain and the round trip can be horrible so try it out first.

As strong as Resolve is, clients might not demand quite that level of polish. And it's not that fast unless you have a panel. Colorista, while basic, is fine for most content. I'm unfamiliar with Premier's built in grading options but Avid and FCPX have decent tools available for most jobs.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 09:41 PM   #11
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I have colorista 2 but I have been using the premiere built in color grading like proc amp, curves and RGB color corrector.

I use these because they are all CUDA accelerated and pretty diverse.
Colorista is a slow render.

So in short, these item WORK, but I feel that I am missing out on something.
I just got looks and that might be more of what I am looking for.

I asked about AE because from what I can tell you can do alot more masking work for specific areas in the shot + tracking.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 12:22 AM   #12
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There are exceptions of course, but grading is typically the last step as you don't want to waste time grading shots that will never be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matteusclement View Post
I have colorista 2 but I have been using the premiere built in color grading like proc amp, curves and RGB color corrector.

I use these because they are all CUDA accelerated and pretty diverse.
Colorista is a slow render.

So in short, these item WORK, but I feel that I am missing out on something.
I just got looks and that might be more of what I am looking for.

I asked about AE because from what I can tell you can do alot more masking work for specific areas in the shot + tracking.
The bane of all the Red Giant plugins seems to be speed. Tracking and masking can certainly come in handy but I found that the more I graded the fewer masks/power windows/secondaries (whatever the program calls them) I needed to use.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 12:29 AM   #13
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Give Resolve a try. It's free. Worst case scenario you ditch it. It can do everything Colorista can do and way more and if you discover a clean round trip it might even be faster for its hardware acceleration alone.

It's great. A lot like Color but with a significantly better keyer, more powerful and more comprehensively node-based interface, much better tracker, and more compatibility. The interface is more daunting, though, imo. I sure gave up on it quick.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 01:25 AM   #14
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it depends on your definition of 'color correction' and 'grading is'.

If you want ultimate control, go for resolve or Color. but prepare for some learning.

And someone said they have no need for windows and masks for grading? Then youre not really grading. As anyone in here ever sat in on a real color correction session? Even the simplest of commercials have some pretty complex color needs, with dozens of nodes and effects.

And keep in mind that you dont have to stay in 1 program to complete your color needs. I've edited professionally for almost 10 years now, and more and more do I see fellow editors and up and comers wanting a one stop solution, yet they wont take the time to think outside of premiere, FCP, AVID or AE.

A solid approach for some is to get your basic correction done in your NLE.. meaning if you prefere the 3 wheel in premiere, then use those and get things balanced.

THen focus on the shot or shots that may actually need some windows, secondaries, etc over in AE.

A few months back we got the MB suite, and one editor will ONLY use colorista. Now it is a great app.. but he sends his entire project over to AE and spends an EPIC amount of time tweaking his picture.. meanwhile I'm all set and moved on.

As a pro, I would suggest learning the ins and outs of the programs you KNOW, and go from there.

As for all this AE is a compositor, not a compositor.. well.. you can use it for what you can make of it, but the true program for that would be NUKE.. that is a true compositor.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 02:28 AM   #15
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And someone said they have no need for windows and masks for grading? Then youre not really grading. As anyone in here ever sat in on a real color correction session? Even the simplest of commercials have some pretty complex color needs, with dozens of nodes and effects.
To answer your question, yes I've spent time in a real color correction session because for the better part of three years I was working primarily as a colorist.

I didn't say I have no need for windows/masks I said as I became more experienced I needed to use them less often. When I first started out I was pretty ham fisted with the controls so I had to use windows to isolate various parts of the image to achieve the desired results. The more I graded the more deftly I learned to handle the controls so the less I needed to wall off parts of the image using windows. This also meant my sessions went faster because I wasn't wasting time creating (and rendering out) windows that weren't required.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 11:02 AM   #16
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Ah got it.. that makes sense.

Honestly I am just used to many people, either online or in person trying to take short cuts and looking for the latest plug ins to do all of their work for them.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 11:07 AM   #17
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Ah got it.. that makes sense.

Honestly I am just used to many people, either online or in person trying to take short cuts and looking for the latest plug ins to do all of their work for them.
I know what you mean. Sometimes I feel like I need a sign that reads, "My favorite plugins are talent and hard work".
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 11:28 AM   #18
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I keep seeing you guys talk about resolve for free, where can I get this?
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 11:48 AM   #19
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I keep seeing you guys talk about resolve for free, where can I get this?
From Blackmagic Design's website. Resolve Lite is free and is about 90% feature comparable to the full version of Resolve which is $999.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 10:51 PM   #20
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Update

bwahahaha.

Resolve has me feeling like a crazy person. I have checked out 6 tuts so far and it's frakin amazing. I now see where my previous short films were failing... grading.

gonna check some more out and get back to here.

From what I can tell, resolve is GPU intensive?
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 12:44 AM   #21
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bwahahaha.

Resolve has me feeling like a crazy person. I have checked out 6 tuts so far and it's frakin amazing. I now see where my previous short films were failing... grading.

gonna check some more out and get back to here.

From what I can tell, resolve is GPU intensive?
Resolve is very GPU intensive. The Lite version is limited to 1 GPU though (by contrast Resolve on Linux supports 8).
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 01:51 AM   #22
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As for all this AE is a compositor, not a compositor.. well.. you can use it for what you can make of it, but the true program for that would be NUKE.. that is a true compositor.
It's also much more expensive, which leaves room for Adobe to grow. I truly wish Adobe would consider node based workflows for After Effects and Photoshop. The ability to point adjustments at specific layers or nodes would be excellent. It helps if you're trying to maintain file flexibility by retaining things in an unmerged state with a lot of elements and you don't want to deal with a bunch of nested duplicate adjustment layers if possible. With nodes you can have multiple specific outputs from a single node. An adjustment could be assigned to to specific things without having to use nested layers in several different groups, as that becomes cumbersome, even with really strong organization. I don't even use thumbnails in these programs as they take up too much screen real estate. I rely solely on my system of labeling, because I really am that much of a nerd.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 01:55 AM   #23
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It's also much more expensive, which leaves room for Adobe to grow. I truly wish Adobe would consider node based workflows for After Effects and Photoshop. The ability to point adjustments at specific layers or nodes would be excellent. It helps if you're trying to maintain file flexibility by retaining things in an unmerged state with a lot of elements and you don't want to deal with a bunch of nested duplicate adjustment layers if possible. With nodes you can have multiple specific outputs from a single node. An adjustment could be assigned to to specific things without having to use nested layers in several different groups, as that becomes cumbersome, even with really strong organization. I don't even use thumbnails in these programs as they take up too much screen real estate. I rely solely on my system of labeling, because I really am that much of a nerd.
Just wanted to bump this to say that your sig is AWESOME.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 02:37 AM   #24
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Just wanted to bump this to say that your sig is AWESOME.
I am far too silly with sigs and avatars. Note the cat as ipad rest. My point about After Effects remains. You can get it as part of a creative suite bundle. The cheaper version of Nuke, which lacks the 3d camera tracker and particles (camera tracker seems painful to give up) is still around $4k+ a higher maintenance cost. There's definitely room in the market for Adobe. I'm slightly curious what the Foundry will do with Modo.
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