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Old Jan 9, 2013, 06:38 AM   #151
GermanyChris
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So the general consensus of this thread is we want all the legacy ports, eSATA, and a extra TB port or two and it needs to be $99..



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Old Jan 9, 2013, 06:41 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
So the general consensus of this thread is we want all the legacy ports, eSATA, and a extra TB port or two and it needs to be $99..

I think the general consensus of this thread is that no one really sees how this thing can even begin to justify its 299$ pricetag as it is.

I said it earlier, for me, 299$ here makes me plug-in 2 cables into my Mac vs 4 right now. Would you spend 299$ to have to plug in 2 less cables each time you set your Mac on your desk ?

I know plenty of stuff I'd rather spend 299$ on personally.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 07:09 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
I think the general consensus of this thread is that no one really sees how this thing can even begin to justify its 299$ pricetag as it is.

I said it earlier, for me, 299$ here makes me plug-in 2 cables into my Mac vs 4 right now. Would you spend 299$ to have to plug in 2 less cables each time you set your Mac on your desk ?

I know plenty of stuff I'd rather spend 299$ on personally.

I would buy it in a heartbeat..
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 08:41 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
I don't think it would add much complexity. If somebody wants two external monitors, then they plug two monitors into the box. What is complex about that?
...provided that doesn't extract both display signals from the Thunderbolt and prevent you from connecting a Thunderbolt display. The complexity is whether you can add a display output that only peels a display signal off the TB bus if a display is actually connected.

The Belkin hub was originally going to have a HDMI port. The Matrox hub has a DVI or HDMI port but no Thunderbolt-out. They've both changed their specs, which suggests to me that there is a problem with that.

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Myself, I'd probably buy such a box (that allows me to connect two external monitors) even if cost up to $500.
Have you seen this: http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/pr...go/digital_se/ ?


Edit: also, external Thunderbolt GPU announced at CES: http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/...r_support.html
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 08:50 AM   #155
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Displays

Let me get this straight, assuming you have:
  1. A MacBook Air where the DVI port doubles as the Thunderbolt port.
  2. An external monitor that does not have a built in Thunderbolt hub.
  3. One of them Seagate Thunderbolt drive adaptors that does not support Thunderbolt daisy chaining.

Doesn't that mean that you can either connect your external monitor to the downstream port on this dock or you can have your Thunderbolt drive connected to downstream port on the dock. You cannot have your external monitor and your Thunderbolt drive plugged in at the same time? Which would kind of suck... doesn't anybody make a straight forward Thunderbolt/DVI port splitter?
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 08:55 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by theluggage View Post
Edit: also, external Thunderbolt GPU announced at CES: http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/...r_support.html
Too bad though :

Quote:
"The external chassis features a Thunderbolt interface and an internal PCIe slot," Anand Lai Shimpi noted. "Despite running on a MacBook Pro there is currently no OS X support for the solution, but it does work under Windows. Presumably if there's OS X support for the GPU inside the enclosure it would work under OS X as well."
So you'd have to buy an overpriced graphics card from Apple on top of this break out box in order to get it to work on OS X.

(currently, the only one I can see for sale from Apple is a Radeon 5870 for 479$ or a Radeon 5770).
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 09:27 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by theluggage View Post
...provided that doesn't extract both display signals from the Thunderbolt and prevent you from connecting a Thunderbolt display.
If your computer/graphic card can only support two external displays, you would expect that after connecting two external displays, connecting an additional one, even though their might still be a port open to plug one in, won't work.

Quote:
The complexity is whether you can add a display output that only peels a display signal off the TB bus if a display is actually connected.
And this is of course possible, just look at Apple's TB display.

Quote:
The Belkin hub was originally going to have a HDMI port. The Matrox hub has a DVI or HDMI port but no Thunderbolt-out. They've both changed their specs, which suggests to me that there is a problem with that.
Of course this does not seem as straightforward and cheaply as we would hope for. But the Apple TB display shows that it is possible.

Yeah, but the Matrox solutions use the trick of presenting two displays as one large display to OS and thus require two displays with the same resolution. It is the best/only solution so far but with that just-mentioned limitation.

Quote:
also, external Thunderbolt GPU announced at CES: http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/...r_support.html
KnightWRX answered this already above and his quote is what I had in mind when I said that there currently are no reports of any graphic card working in such a setup under OS X.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by osxnerd View Post
Let me get this straight, assuming you have:
  1. A MacBook Air where the DVI port doubles as the Thunderbolt port.
  2. An external monitor that does not have a built in Thunderbolt hub.
  3. One of them Seagate Thunderbolt drive adaptors that does not support Thunderbolt daisy chaining.

Doesn't that mean that you can either connect your external monitor to the downstream port on this dock or you can have your Thunderbolt drive connected to downstream port on the dock. You cannot have your external monitor and your Thunderbolt drive plugged in at the same time? Which would kind of suck...
Which is why one should avoid any TB device that does not two TB ports.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 09:39 AM   #158
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Which is why one should avoid any TB device that does not two TB ports.
Could I still run a DVI monitor off the Thunderbolt connector off the Thunderbolt port on this thing?

The Matrox dock, is cheaper but then I'd have to lay out $50 for an USB3 hub so no real price advantage there. I can still use a TB drive on my MacMini media center and there I have no daisy-chaining issues since it is connected to a TV via HDMI and I have a huge amount of video.

Somebody mentioned a new Henge dock that 'out-ports' the one from Belkin... is it this one?:
http://www.hengedocks.com/order_horizontal_dock.php
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 09:43 AM   #159
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Thunderbolt is a bag of hurt.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 09:59 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by netdog View Post
Thunderbolt is a bag of hurt.
If what I have seen in this thread so far is true, the only really killer use for TB is with SSD drives where it really puts USB in a pipe and smokes it. If your TB drive does not support chaining you are SOL because the chain is terminated, if you have a DVI display you are SOL for the same reason. Everybody has DVI displays and if the display terminates the daisy-chain and rules out using the DVI display and a TB drive at the same time (since most TB drives I have seen don't support chaining) TB kind of sucks. Even if you have a bunch of chain-able devices you'd have to stick your DVI monitor to the end of the chain which I, quite frankly do not want to do.The last thing I need is a bunch of devices on my desktop chained up with a bunch of $50, 2m long Thunderbolt cables. Plus, apparently the Apple Thunderbolt display will not be able to daisy-chain to a regular DVI display.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 10:08 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by osxnerd View Post
Could I still run a DVI monitor off the Thunderbolt connector off the Thunderbolt port on this thing?
Yes, according to the TB specs, any TB chain can be capped off with a DP device (and I think a mDP-to-DVI adaptor would qualify as DP device).

Quote:
Somebody mentioned a new Henge dock that 'out-ports' the one from Belkin... is it this one?:
http://www.hengedocks.com/order_horizontal_dock.php
Seems to be, though, it is unclear whether those three video ports can also carry a TB signal.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by osxnerd View Post
If what I have seen in this thread so far is true, the only really killer use for TB is with SSD drives where it really puts USB in a pipe and smokes it. If your TB drive does not support chaining you are SOL because the chain is terminated, if you have a DVI display you are SOL for the same reason. Everybody has DVI displays and if the display terminates the daisy-chain and rules out using the DVI display and a TB drive at the same time (since most TB drives I have seen don't support chaining) TB kind of sucks.
That is why most recent Macs have two TB ports (the 13 and 15" rMBP and the iMac) and the Mac mini and the rMBPs additionally have a HDMI port to connect a monitor.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 10:18 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
Seems to be, though, it is unclear whether those three video ports can also carry a TB signal.[COLOR="#808080"]
If you click on the pre-order button you'll see that there are two versions, regular and Thunderbolt, the regular one costs $250 the Thunderbolt one another $100. They could have put that on the intro page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
That is why most recent Macs have two TB ports (the 13 and 15" rMBP and the iMac) and the Mac mini and the rMBPs additionally have a HDMI port to connect a monitor.]
And it's also why I am SOL with my 1 year old MacBook Air with it's two USB2 ports and it's single Thunderbolt/DVI connector... wonderful
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 11:22 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
If your computer/graphic card can only support two external displays, you would expect that after connecting two external displays, connecting an additional one, even though their might still be a port open to plug one in, won't work.
Fine if you're specifically making a dual head adapter.

If you're making a general-purpose dock, however, people might want to connect a thunderbolt display rather than the internal ports, might not want to lose two of their max. 5 (?) daisy-chainable devices to a dock, or might not want to pay for two Thunderbolt controllers.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 11:52 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osxnerd;16632761
Somebody mentioned a new Henge dock that 'out-ports' the one from Belkin... is it this one?:
[url
http://www.hengedocks.com/order_horizontal_dock.php[/url]
Pretty unclear at the moment.

It looks like a 'port replicator' dock that automatically sticks cables in all the rMBP's orifices and routes them to sockets at the back. The rMBP can support 3 displays (2x DisplayPort + 1 x HDMI) so I assume that's where they're getting the 3 display outputs. Extra USB ports just need a USB hub.

Since they're saying that it will be available Q3 and a 'Thunderbolt enabled' version is promised for Q4, I'd assume that they are using USB rather than Thunderbolt to provide sound, Firewire and Ethernet (since the last two don't exist on a rMBP). 'Thunderbolt Enabled' could turn out to mean that 1-2 of the 3 display outputs is replaced by a Thunderbolt port.

The thing about the Belkin/Matrox thunderbolt hubs is that they contain 'fully fledged' Ethernet/Firewire controllers which should certainly out-perform USB2-based controllers and possibly offer lower CPU load than USB3-based ones. Same for USB3 - a thunderbolt-driven USB3 controller will be better than using a hub to hang more devices off the existing 2 USBs.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 12:45 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by theluggage View Post
Pretty unclear at the moment.

It looks like a 'port replicator' dock that automatically sticks cables in all the rMBP's orifices and routes them to sockets at the back. The rMBP can support 3 displays (2x DisplayPort + 1 x HDMI) so I assume that's where they're getting the 3 display outputs. Extra USB ports just need a USB hub.

Since they're saying that it will be available Q3 and a 'Thunderbolt enabled' version is promised for Q4, I'd assume that they are using USB rather than Thunderbolt to provide sound, Firewire and Ethernet (since the last two don't exist on a rMBP). 'Thunderbolt Enabled' could turn out to mean that 1-2 of the 3 display outputs is replaced by a Thunderbolt port.

The thing about the Belkin/Matrox thunderbolt hubs is that they contain 'fully fledged' Ethernet/Firewire controllers which should certainly out-perform USB2-based controllers and possibly offer lower CPU load than USB3-based ones. Same for USB3 - a thunderbolt-driven USB3 controller will be better than using a hub to hang more devices off the existing 2 USBs.
I don't think you can provide FW over USB, you need TB for that.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 04:32 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by woodbine View Post
Just announced at CES a dock from Henge, that looks like it out ports and more importantly out prices the Belkin offering. May it rise on the ashes of other offerings.
Having read this thread I am too seriously disappointed in the TB offerings out there. LaCie offers a box, only esata and not even with port multiplication. Belkin offers a hub that is just plain mean. Sonnet offers two products, one is fairly cheap but steals your only TB port and the other is seriously expensive.
Manufacturers are just not being creative enough.
Maybe for the MBA, but for the MBP, it's only for the Retina one. The Retina one already has triple external monitor support natively, so it doesn't need anything external. The ones that need the support are the older ones, but they probably (correctly) assume that the Retina owners are the ones with the money to blow on something like a custom Apple-esque dock.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 08:50 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
300$ means I get to plug in 2 wires instead of four when putting my laptop on my desk ? Insane. They can shove it.
Non-USB connected docks for PCs are similarly priced and don't do thunderbolt.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 08:55 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by throAU View Post
Non-USB connected docks for PCs are similarly priced and don't do thunderbolt.
...but mine does eSATA, GbE, dual DVI/DP/VGA, audio in/out, half a dozen USB ports,...

...And power, without connecting a single cable to the system.

T-Bolt seems to be a way to spend more and get less....
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 09:06 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
...but mine does eSATA, GbE, dual DVI/DP/VGA, audio in/out, half a dozen USB ports,...

...And power, without connecting a single cable to the system.

T-Bolt seems to be a way to spend more and get less....
Sure. But if you want the expansion capabilities that an external PCIe port provides (which is what thunderbolt is) you're screwed.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 05:36 AM   #170
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Dont expect too much from the firewire port

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Originally Posted by Schranke View Post
Love the changes. do not need eSata, do need 100$ extra in my pocket.
Have been waiting what seams forever for this.
Now i just want the release date. have to many usb things and only 2 usb hubs.
Have 2 Thunderbolt ports but no thunderbolt things.
Now i get to use 1 and and get my firewire port back.
If the firewire port works anything like the Apple tb/FW adapter, dont expect the full FW capabilties. Peripherals powered by the FW cable are unlikely to work and speeds are down.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 07:27 AM   #171
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I don't think you can provide FW over USB, you need TB for that.
Well nothing shows up on a quick google, certainly, but is it impossible? I know that last time I looked for USB3-to-1GBEthernet there were no consumer devices but someone was offering a chipset. Does FW800 need to connect to a PCI bus?

I'm also not clear how (what looked like) 3xDisplayPort video outputs was going to work either - while there are plenty of reports about successfully connect 3 external displays to a rMBP, the third one connects via HDMI which, AFAIK, couldn't be converted back to fully-fledged DP

(Unless, of course, the illustrations are the 'Thunderbolt enabled' model rather than the model described in the release).

However, I was giving this product the benefit of the doubt, because nobody would show a non-working model of a device at CES that wasn't technically feasible and due to be released on time and as specified... right
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 07:37 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by throAU View Post
Non-USB connected docks for PCs are similarly priced and don't do thunderbolt.
My office docks doesn't require me to connect any cables at all. I just drop the laptop on it. It also adds a 2nd video out port that the laptop doesn't have, provides eSATA, and a Kensington lock with a laptop locking mecanism to deter theft.

It's also 199$, not 299$ :

http://h30094.www3.hp.com/product/sk...partno/A9B77AA

So again.... sorry. No. You're not convincing me.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 07:40 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by mpainesyd View Post
If the firewire port works anything like the Apple tb/FW adapter, dont expect the full FW capabilties. Peripherals powered by the FW cable are unlikely to work and speeds are down.
Well, based on the pictures, the Belkin hub has 12v DC-in which suggests it might be able to deliver more power the USB and FW ports than it draws from Thunderbolt.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 05:17 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by fitzpatpaul View Post
This thing doesn't come with a true display output, so you will need to buy an additional MiniDP to DVI or HDMI adaptor. This means another 30$ on top of the already too expensive 300$.
I just bought 3 MiniDP/TB to HDMI adapters for $3 each with free shipping off Amazon. They took a month to get delivered, but I'm using one now for one of my dual displays on my new Mac Mini Server and it works fine. I've got two more in case there's a problem or I need to use one with someone else's Macbook or whatever (just got my mother a Macboook Pro 13" recently).
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 05:19 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
I just bought 3 MiniDP/TB to HDMI adapters for $3 each with free shipping off Amazon. They took a month to get delivered, but I'm using one now for one of my dual displays on my new Mac Mini Server and it works fine. I've got two more in case there's a problem or I need to use one with someone else's Macbook or whatever (just got my mother a Macboook Pro 13" recently).
Be careful with those as I've read a lot about the cheap adapters actually shorting out and burning your port and sometimes even the MB. It gets very expensive very quickly and you really wish you bought a 30 dollar adapter instead of 3. Not that it happens to everyone, just a risk you should be willing to take to save 27 dollars.
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