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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:33 PM   #26
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I would like to examine this one closer. If we can't trust trained military not to snap with an issued weapon, what chance is there for the rest of us. If the government can't tell that a solider is about to snap and shoot up everyone how can we prevent a civilan from doing the same thing.
Here is the Army regulation. Knock yourself out. PDF

I think you are reaching with the "snap and shoot up everyone."
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:34 PM   #27
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Here is the Army regulation. Knock yourself out. PDF

I think you are reaching with the "snap and shoot up everyone."
In the past 5 years how many in the military have killed their fellow soldiers because of friendly fire, be it accident or intentional?
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:34 PM   #28
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Here is the Army regulation. Knock yourself out. PDF

I think you are reaching with the "snap and shoot up everyone."
webbuzz is correct. It's the same at naval installations.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:34 PM   #29
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In the past 5 years how many in the military have killed their fellow soldiers because of friendly fire, be it accident or intentional?
You must know, so you tell me.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:35 PM   #30
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You must know, so you tell me.
I am asking you as you seem to know this stuff.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:36 PM   #31
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Arming more people isn't the solution either.
You have a study or proof to back that claim up?
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:38 PM   #32
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webbuzz is correct. It's the same at naval installations.
The Army reg was the easiest to find. But, yes all military bases fall under a DoD ban.

Thanks
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:38 PM   #33
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If open carry is legal then I don't see a problem.

Anyone that is going to open carry is very unlikely to start shooting people.
For proponents of less gun control to parade publicly, festooned with weapons seems counter productive to their cause considering recent events. While this may bring lots of chuckles on the gun forms most see this as puerile grandstanding and another log on the fire of gun control.

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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:39 PM   #34
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I am asking you as you seem to know this stuff.
I never made any claim regarding the number of friendly fire incidents or on base murders.

edit: You will most likely find that most "friendly fire" incidents will not involve handguns or rifles.

Here are some FF incidents from Wikipedia from the Iraq War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendl..._War_from_2003
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:42 PM   #35
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I never made any claim regarding the number of friendly fire incidents or on base murders.
I don't care if a base is a gun free zone, that means nothing if the person is trained in how to handle a weapon. They could get the gun from anywhere. So my question is if they can't tell that a highly trained for all intensive purposes "killing machine" is unhinged what hope is there for the rest of us being protected from unstable people that might want to cause harm.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:45 PM   #36
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I don't care if a base is a gun free zone, that means nothing if the person is trained in how to handle a weapon. They could get the gun from anywhere. So my question is if they can't tell that a highly trained for all intensive purposes "killing machine" is unhinged what hope is there for the rest of us being protected from unstable people that might want to cause harm.
I wouldn't overlook the other "highly trained" military force out there.

The Police.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:45 PM   #37
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But what's to say that in the NRA's fantasy world every crazy person with a gun that decides to be a hero and stop another shooting from happening is going to be a better shot?
I am not against training and qualifying before being issued a firearm (it is what Texas does according to my cousin that just got their CHL there). There is a middle ground, but banning stuff is not part of that middle ground IMO.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:47 PM   #38
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I am not against training and qualifying before being issued a firearm (it is what Texas does according to my cousin that just got their CHL there). There is a middle ground, but banning stuff is not part of that middle ground IMO.
So do you think it's ok to make automatic weapons legal to have ?
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:47 PM   #39
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I wouldn't overlook the other "highly trained" military force out there.

The Police.
I agree, most cops were in the military at one point. My point is, if we can't get mental help for people who are trained to shoot how can we help some lonely kid in his basement.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:49 PM   #40
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So do you think it's ok to make automatic weapons legal to have ?
They are already legal - there are just loopholes to jump through like class 3 permits (tax stamps/trusts) and the whole being ridiculously expensive thing. I believe they fall under the same restrictions as suppressors and SBRs anyway.

Any Full Auto manufactured and sold before the first ban is fair game I believe.

just a note: Class 3 firearms are illegal in Iowa as I have been told so I have not pursued and am not positive on all of the stipulations of Class 3.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:52 PM   #41
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They are already legal - there are just loopholes to jump through like class 3 permits (tax stamps/trusts) and the whole being ridiculously expensive thing. I believe they fall under the same restrictions as suppressors and SBRs anyway.

Any Full Auto manufactured before the first ban is fair game I believe.
When I said "automatic weapons" I meant just that. Fully automatic weapons. The other kind is "semi-automatic". Which btw was used by the guy in the movie theatre. 30 shots in 27 seconds. That was as fast as some automatic weapons were 30 years ago.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:54 PM   #42
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I agree, most cops were in the military at one point. My point is, if we can't get mental help for people who are trained to shoot how can we help some lonely kid in his basement.
So, are you assuming that most service members have mental issues? That is not the reason for the firearms ban on military bases.

I do agree with you regarding mental issues. There were signs with all the shooters from Aurora, Arizona, VA Tech, Columbine, and Newtown.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:57 PM   #43
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So, are you assuming that most service members have mental issues? That is not the reason for the firearms ban on military bases.

I do agree with you regarding mental issues. There were signs with all the shooters from Aurora, Arizona, VA Tech, Columbine, and Newtown.
I didn't say most, I said it should be easier to pick out the select few who do a lot easier than it should be to find a civilian. If we can't find a lunatic soldier what chance is there to find a lonely kid. It does not bode well for mental health help in this country.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:02 PM   #44
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I didn't say most, I said it should be easier to pick out the select few who do a lot easier than it should be to find a civilian. If we can't find a lunatic soldier what chance is there to find a lonely kid. It does not bode well for mental health help in this country.
Mental health is a major issue.

I am still not sure why you keep bringing military personnel into this. Is it because of the Fort Hood shooter?
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:21 PM   #45
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When I said "automatic weapons" I meant just that. Fully automatic weapons. The other kind is "semi-automatic". Which btw was used by the guy in the movie theatre. 30 shots in 27 seconds. That was as fast as some automatic weapons were 30 years ago.
An M4 (fully automatic) has a rate of fire of 700-950 rounds per minute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine

To make an AR15 (semi-automatic) to a fully automatic weapon requires a lot more than what Hollywood depicts. I am not talking about the "slide fire" or "bump fire" crap that you see on the internet (it is still not full auto).

Like Hawkeye mentioned, fully automatic rifles are expensive and require multiple forms to the ATF.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:23 PM   #46
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You have a study or proof to back that claim up?
No, but it isn't a direction society should head towards. A society that can only feel safe when it's filled with guns is not one I want to live in. I'm not saying ban guns either.

But closing the gun show loophole making a background check required, banning modifications that make a semi-automatic weapon fire like a machine gun, required training courses, recurrent training, and banning of high capacity clips would be sufficient, IMHO along with better mental healthcare.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:45 PM   #47
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The difference is that was an armed base and people were still killed. I would say it was different than if the guy went to a shopping mall and opened fire. This guy was trained by the government in how to shoot so do we hold them responsable?

In either event there should have been warning signs with the guy and he should have been stopped long before it happened.

The guy doing the shooting at Ft. Hood was a field grade officer and medical officer, the shooting was most likely more deadly because people were looking for a civilian doing the shooting and and not a soldier.

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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:59 PM   #48
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How many shootings do we have to have in this country before the gun nuts (not specifically talking about anyone here) acknowledge there is a problem?

What was it in the other thread? 80 shootings happen daily in this country? This is just ridiculous.


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Was Fort Hood a terrorist attack or a crazy shooter? The guy was a extremist social worker on a military base.
Who cares what you call it? You're just arguing semantics. It doesn't matter what the guy was, he was able to obtain a gun and shot a bunch of people with it.

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That was not a mass shooting, it was a politically motivated attempted murder. I thought political rallies were illegal to carry at, but a glance at Arizona's laws on it lead me to believe you can actually carry legally there.
6 people died and 13 more were wounded. FBI defines a mass shooting as 4 or more killed in one incident, so by their definition Tucson was most definitely a "mass shooting".

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Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
I agree, most cops were in the military at one point. My point is, if we can't get mental help for people who are trained to shoot how can we help some lonely kid in his basement.
Healthcare and mental healthcare are two of the major issues (besides guns and the economy) that our country is facing now, but it's a subject for another thread (or 10).
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:21 PM   #49
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This is sad... so many school shootings. Hopefully something can stop it all from happening...
Ban schools....
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:36 PM   #50
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Ban schools....
Do you have anything constructive to add or are you sticking with, no one is going to take my guns away?

What would you do about the problem?
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