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Old Jan 11, 2013, 02:20 AM   #76
k995
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Originally Posted by Anonymous Freak View Post
Yup, I think it's a dumb idea - plenty of schools already do it, and one Resource Officer (or dedicated "armed guard") wouldn't do squat - someone intent on committing mass murder at a school would just target that person first.
Probably not, but in the panic and chaos its very hard to make sense of he situation. There have been plenty of armed people armed and trained on such shootings that werent able to do anything to show that.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:06 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
You also stated that if things were so bad, we'd be seeing these kinds of shootings once a month, and when faced with the fact that we are very close to that, you still said nothing. I'm with you on bans and such, but you need to seriously start realizing that the gun lobby is it's own worst enemy.
I don't remember what I said exactly...I tried finding that post but couldn't. I think the point I was making is that given the number of guns out there, and the propaganda and spin the antis use, they would have you believe these mass/public shootings are happening every day. Also, I do realize they are increasing, or seem to be anyway...I suspect that this is nutjobs feeding off of other nutjobs.


Also, some other (somewhat random) points to consider:

1) The media seems to do a fairly good job of NOT reporting when guns are used by civilians or off duty officers to save lives. Instead we only hear about the bad guys gunning people down, we never (or almost never) hear about civilians using firearms to save their lives or others. The fact that this happens with some frequency cannot be denied, even a simple google search :

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

shows this happens fairly often but it does not seem to get widely reported. Why do you think that is?

2) According to FBI stats, you stand more of a chance of getting beaten with a hammer than you do getting shot with a semi-auto rifle:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...an-With-Rifles

3) Many (if not most) rank and file cops do not support civilian disarmament...they, more than anyone know that it will not do anything to reduce violent crime.

http://www.leaa.org/Cops%20Versus%20...susguncon.html

4) Lastly, last night I was watching CNN. Wolf Blitzer was interviewing the NRA president and it dawned on me that much of the gun argument has to do with the fact that so many people in the U.S. just truly do not understand the "gun culture". These people grew up in cities and more urban areas where not many people had guns and simply have had no exposure to them. Perhaps they have been subject to anti gun propaganda at young age. As a result they simply do not understand why we have them, why we want them, and what we do with them recreationally.

It is much the same way I look at the car culture or motorcycle culture, I have no idea why people would want some of these expensive vehicles, oftentimes doing mods to them that make them unsafe, increase their speed, and make them more noisy. These are things I have never been exposed to, family was not into cars/motorcycles, friends I hung out with were not..as such I simply have no appreciation of what other people see in these things. To be honest I myself think that anything that makes a vehicle noisy or allows it to travel at speeds in excess of the speed limit should be illegal.

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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Do you know what the border guards ask you when crossing the state line into California?

"Are you carrying any fruits or vegetables?"

Yup. Gun control in California is brutal.

The point is that the weapon used is something that is not being conisdered to be banned. It was not an "assault weapon" (as much as I hate that inaccurate term). It was a shotgun. Something that is perfectly legal under CA gun laws.

The other point to be learned from this is that it occurred in a state with some of the most restrictive gun laws...they did nothing to stop it.

Oh, and while I am at it, a whole lot of good that "gun free school zone" did in stopping this.

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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:36 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
I don't remember what I said exactly...I tried finding that post but couldn't. I think the point I was making is that given the number of guns out there, and the propaganda and spin the antis use, they would have you believe these mass/public shootings are happening every day. Also, I do realize they are increasing, or seem to be anyway...I suspect that this is nutjobs feeding off of other nutjobs.
Let me refresh your memory:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...7&postcount=50

There have been 16 mass shootings in 2012 alone (a shooting every 11 days) and about 80 people shot dead every day. This is neither propaganda nor spin. I know that it doesn't "seem" to make that great an impact compared to the 300 million US citizens, but to me shootings in the US have become routine.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:43 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
Let me refresh your memory:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...7&postcount=50

There have been 16 mass shootings in 2012 alone (a shooting every 11 days) and about 80 people shot dead every day. This is neither propaganda nor spin. I know that it doesn't "seem" to make that great an impact compared to the 300 million US citizens, but to me shootings in the US have become routine.
fair enough...I didn't realize there were that many last year. I only recalled about half of those. I'd be interested to see those broken down. How many were done by mentally ill people who passed a background check despite being diagnosed as being severely disturbed.

As far as 80 people being shot every day, Id hazard a guess and say about half of those are criminals shooting other criminals..acts which I personally will not lose any sleep over.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:00 AM   #80
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fair enough...I didn't realize there were that many last year. I only recalled about half of those. I'd be interested to see those broken down. How many were done by mentally ill people who passed a background check despite being diagnosed as being severely disturbed.
Here's the complete list:

Quote:
February 22, 2012—Five people were killed in at a Korean health spa in Norcross, Georgia, when a man opened fire inside the facility in an act suspected to be related to domestic violence.

February 26, 2012—Multiple gunmen began firing into a nightclub crown in Jackson, Tennessee, killing one person and injuring 20 others.

February 27, 2012—Three students at Chardon High School in rural Ohio were killed when a classmate opened fire.

March 8, 2012—Two people were killed and seven wounded at a psychiatric hospital in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when a gunman entered the hospital with two semiautomatic handguns and began firing.

March 31, 2012—A gunman opened fire on a crowd of mourners at a North Miami, Florida, funeral home, killing two people and injuring 12 others.

April 2, 2012—A 43-year-old former student at Oikos University in Oakland, California, walked into his former school and killed seven people, “execution-style.” Three people were wounded.

April 6, 2012—Two men went on a deadly shooting spree in Tulsa, Oklahoma, shooting black men at random in an apparently racially motivated attack. Three men died and two were wounded.

May 29, 2012—A man in Seattle, Washington, opened fire in a coffee shop and killed five people and then himself.

July 9, 2012—At a soccer tournament in Wilmington, Delaware, three people were killed, including a 16-year-old player and the event organizer, when multiple gunmen began firing shots, apparently targeting the organizer.

July 20, 2012—James Holmes enters a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises and opens fire with a semi-automatic weapon; twelve people are killed and fifty-eight are wounded.

August 5, 2012—A white supremacist and former Army veteran shot six people to death inside a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

August 14, 2012—Three people were killed at Texas A&M University when a 35-year-old man went on a shooting rampage; one of the dead was a police officer.

September 27, 2012—A 36-year-old man who had just been laid off from Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, Minnesota, entered his former workplace and shot five people to death, and wounded three others before killing himself.

October 21, 2012—45-year-old Radcliffe Frankin Haughton shot three women to death, including his wife, Zina Haughton, and injured four others at a spa in Brookfield, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

December 11, 2012—A 22-year-old began shooting at random at a mall near Portland, Oregon, killing two people and then himself.

December 14, 2012—One man, and possibly more, murders a reported twenty-six people at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, including twenty children, before killing himself.
It's fair to say that it *is* mental to go and shoot people for whatever reason.

Any mass purchase *has* to be questioned by the seller and the police. There's no discussion. You don't stock up on ammunition unless you live in a war zone. But doing so in a supposedly civilized country borders to mental illness - not the coo-coo-kind but the paranoid everyone-is-out-to-get-me kind.

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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
As far as 80 people being shot every day, Id hazard a guess and say about half of those are criminals shooting other criminals..acts which I personally will not lose any sleep over.
And half of those are caused by domestic violence killing innocent people, so you should at least consider it a thought.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:02 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
fair enough...I didn't realize there were that many last year. I only recalled about half of those. I'd be interested to see those broken down. How many were done by mentally ill people who passed a background check despite being diagnosed as being severely disturbed.
Can you give an example? As far as I know none of the latest killers had such in ilness.


Quote:
As far as 80 people being shot every day, Id hazard a guess and say about half of those are criminals shooting other criminals..acts which I personally will not lose any sleep over.
So? Just because someone once did something criminal he can be shot ?

Perhaps define "criminal" ?
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:07 AM   #82
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Can you give an example? As far as I know none of the latest killers had such in ilness.
thats why I asked...however, I think its clear that the movie theatre shooter and the Sandy Hook shooter were obviously disturbed and should had been declared prohibited persons, and yes I realize that in the Sandy Hook case that would not have done anything to prevent that from happening.



Quote:
Originally Posted by k995 View Post
So? Just because someone once did something criminal he can be shot ?

Perhaps define "criminal" ?
thug on thug crime...drug dealers shooting other drug dealers over territory, product, people actively engaging in criminal activity etc...in other words, you reap what you sow.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...l-target_N.htm

Sorry, but someone who has lived a crime filled life, perhaps preying on the weak is not going to get much sympathy from me when they meet a violent end.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 07:07 AM   #83
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thats why I asked...however, I think its clear that the movie theatre shooter and the Sandy Hook shooter were obviously disturbed and should had been declared prohibited persons, and yes I realize that in the Sandy Hook case that would not have done anything to prevent that from happening.
Thats after the facts, before they showed little or no signs. You cant intern/label millions on very weak signals.

If I see some of the pro gun supporters in interviews would you still let them near weapons?


Quote:
thug on thug crime...drug dealers shooting other drug dealers over territory, product, people actively engaging in criminal activity etc...in other words, you reap what you sow.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...l-target_N.htm

Sorry, but someone who has lived a crime filled life, perhaps preying on the weak is not going to get much sympathy from me when they meet a violent end.
Your source state "criminal records"

25% of the citizens in the USA have a criminal record. You dont mind that 25% of the USA population (and probably people you know) get killed?

Once a criminal always a criminal?
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 08:14 AM   #84
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Some more details on the shooting.


Quote:
A 16-year-old student who blasted a California high school classroom with a shotgun Thursday was targeting two classmates because he felt he'd been bullied, the local sheriff said Thursday night.
One student was hit and was in critical but stable condition Thursday night, and the shooter was in custody after a teacher and the school's campus supervisor talked him into putting his shotgun down.
Interesting, unarmed teacher and campus supervisor were able to talk him down.

Quote:
Youngblood laid out a detailed scenario of the hours before the shooting, saying the student planned the assault the night before, and took a shotgun belonging to his brother.
So it seems, once again, we have a gun (we don't know whether legal or not) whose owner failed to properly secure it.


Quote:
An armed police officer is assigned to the school but he wasn't at the school at the time of the shooting because snowfall in the area prevented his arrival, authorities said.
I don't know whether or not the shooter knew if the police were on site, but if not, it certainly wasn't a deterrent.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 08:25 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Some more details on the shooting.
Interesting, unarmed teacher and campus supervisor were able to talk him down.
What I find interesting about this, is that they were able to talk him down and to put his weapons down (Similar to how the UK would handle such a situation), rather than just shooting him dead they defused the situation.

Also its all very well talking about California having tight gun laws, but couldn't one just go across state line and get one from another less controlled state?

Surely state based laws are somewhat pointless if that is the case.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 08:47 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by k995 View Post
Thats after the facts, before they showed little or no signs. You cant intern/label millions on very weak signals.
I think that in a couple of these shootings it was clear before the shooting happened that the shooter was disturbed and people basically either ignored it or were unable to get the person treatment because the mental health system is broken..

Quote:
Originally Posted by k995 View Post
If I see some of the pro gun supporters in interviews would you still let them near weapons? .
examples? more than one hopefully?




Quote:
Originally Posted by k995 View Post
Your source state "criminal records"

25% of the citizens in the USA have a criminal record. You dont mind that 25% of the USA population (and probably people you know) get killed?

Once a criminal always a criminal?
Really? 25% ? soruce for that please ? actually allow me...

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2010/09/...aise-Awareness

I think the number is closer to 14.5%

Also, I think you damn well know that I am talking about people who are actively involved in violent, criminal lives. Again I hold no sympathy for them. The fact that meet an early death means they are not around to victimize other people.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 09:02 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
The point is that the weapon used is something that is not being conisdered to be banned. It was not an "assault weapon" (as much as I hate that inaccurate term). It was a shotgun. Something that is perfectly legal under CA gun laws.

The other point to be learned from this is that it occurred in a state with some of the most restrictive gun laws...they did nothing to stop it.

Oh, and while I am at it, a whole lot of good that "gun free school zone" did in stopping this.
I completely doubt that California restricts owning a basic shotgun.

I'm sure there isn't a state in this nation that does.

As for the "Gun-Free Zone" thing ... my expectations for a sign stopping someone who wants to perpetrate violence are zero.

In my experience, signs do a very bad job of that.

Last edited by citizenzen; Jan 11, 2013 at 09:21 AM.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 09:15 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by stuaz View Post

Also its all very well talking about California having tight gun laws, but couldn't one just go across state line and get one from another less controlled state?

Surely state based laws are somewhat pointless if that is the case.

Yes, a myriad of state and local laws. We need national laws. Of course the NRA will tell you we have thousands of gun laws and we should enforce them but in reality, they are mostly localized and are ineffectual since all you need to do to get easier access to a gun is travel a bit. Would seem to me the NRA should be all for national standards and to do away with the thousands of laws on the books today.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 09:25 AM   #89
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Yes, a myriad of state and local laws. We need national laws. Of course the NRA will tell you we have thousands of gun laws and we should enforce them but in reality, they are mostly localized and are ineffectual since all you need to do to get easier access to a gun is travel a bit. Would seem to me the NRA should be all for national standards and to do away with the thousands of laws on the books today.
You make it sound easier than it is....

You cannot just cross state lines and buy a gun that easily.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 09:31 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
Any mass purchase *has* to be questioned by the seller and the police. There's no discussion. You don't stock up on ammunition unless you live in a war zone. But doing so in a supposedly civilized country borders to mental illness - not the coo-coo-kind but the paranoid everyone-is-out-to-get-me kind.
The problem is the definition of "mass purchase" and "stock up". I have friends who honestly believe that as part of the responsibility of having a concealed handgun license is to practice regularly. One (who lives "in the country" and has a shooting range on his property,) fires at least 500 rounds a week (through various guns, in various calibers.) Partly for this "responsibility to practice", party because he just enjoys shooting.

Yet some people would consider the purchase of 500 rounds of ammunition a "mass purchase" and "stocking up". To him, it's "a normal week."

Likewise, I am a member at a shooting range that allows you to bring your own ammunition (not all do - many require that you buy the ammunition there.) At gun shows, you can get cheap (quality) ammunition very cheaply - but only in bulk. Last time I went, I bought a 2000-round case of ammunition for one of my rifles. That case will last me years (I still have multiple hundred rounds of pistol ammunition left from a similar bulk purchase six years ago.) Yet by buying it in that bulk level, I got such a discount that it cost me about the same as buying a box of 50 from a "name brand ammunition manufacturer" would have at Walmart. (Not that I'd buy from Walmart.)

So, how do you separate an evil-intent "mass purchase" or "stocking up" from "getting a deal by buying in bulk"?
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 09:49 AM   #91
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Just heard from a friend that 2 schools in the Toledo, Ohio area (Montpelier and Wauseon) have voted to allow certain personnel to to conceal carry during school hours on the schools grounds.

Not sure who those people are going to be but the Montpelier school board said it would not be teachers and that extensive training would be required and "continuing education" would be a mandatory requirement to keep carrying on school grounds.


I think this is a fine choice and is better than nothing. Whomever is chosen should probably be required to have and IDPA membership (maybe paid for or half paid for by the school).

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I wouldn't rely on whether parents trust their children. They are naturally biased.
What, to trusting them?...

If that is the case then those kids get off easy. My parents never gave me blanket trust. If you asked my dad if he trusted me when I was 10 he would look you in the eye, chuckle and tell you I was a kid and therefore could never be trusted at that age. I was a good kid by all accounts and my parents would say as much... but they would not have trusted me as far as they could throw me when I was younger.


Yes I understand that most of the kids doing the shootings are older, but still the above applies.

It seems parenting has gone to **** and a hand basket over the last generation.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 09:50 AM   #92
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So, how do you separate an evil-intent "mass purchase" or "stocking up" from "getting a deal by buying in bulk"?
Background checks and tagging all purchases, run them through a program to see where an unusual bulk purchase was made. Then authorities can check with the owner to find out their legit reasons - if they don't have any, you've got a suspect.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 10:54 AM   #93
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That totally cracks me up. Silence is not the answer. It's not even democratic.
I said nothing about silence, but do we need to glorify the killers. If this new shooter was bullied as he claimed that is just as bad as being mentally ill. Maybe worse as bullying is something that can easily be fixed in the school system. Now that is no excuse to go on a shooting spree, but why do we let these things escalate as far as they do.

What gave the kid the idea to shoot the school, did he get ideas from what he saw on the news about Newtown, or was this another premeditated event that was months in the works.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:06 AM   #94
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Background checks and tagging all purchases, run them through a program to see where an unusual bulk purchase was made. Then authorities can check with the owner to find out their legit reasons - if they don't have any, you've got a suspect.
That happens with firearms already - just not ammunition. I got a call from the ATF for buying multiple weapons within a certain time period. I know some people that have received physical visits as well.

I personally do not mind talking to the ATF when I make certain purchases because I have nothing to hide. They just don't have enough time to do all of that. And I also never really buy in quantities of under 1,000 rounds due to savings. I bought over 8,000 rounds last year, and I didn't go on any mass shootings.

And buying a firearm out of state has a mandatory waiting period from a dealer, I know from experience.

And I know they were able to talk the kid in Cali down - but that is only because he was only targeting 2 specific people he said. He was not out to kill as many as possible. Completely different situations.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:21 AM   #95
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Background checks and tagging all purchases, run them through a program to see where an unusual bulk purchase was made. Then authorities can check with the owner to find out their legit reasons - if they don't have any, you've got a suspect.
way to go for advocating infringing on privacy rights..

In 2012 alone I have purchased roughly 5k rounds of ammo in various calibers. Over the summer alone I shot roughly half that.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:24 AM   #96
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way to go for advocating infringing on privacy rights..

In 2012 alone I have purchased roughly 5k rounds of ammo in various calibers. Over the summer alone I shot roughly half that.
Why do you need 5k rounds?
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:35 AM   #97
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Why do you need 5k rounds?
Practice and sport. Is it really that difficult? I USED 5K rounds last year!
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Last edited by stridemat; Jan 11, 2013 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Removed insult
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:36 AM   #98
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Why do you need 5k rounds?
Zombies. Hard buggers to kill.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:36 AM   #99
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Why do you need 5k rounds?
If you enjoy shooting and are serious about it then it is easy to go through that many rounds.

I went last weekend and shot 250 rounds through my 9mm by myself. Imaging doing that every weekend or every other weekend and you can easily go through that many rounds.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:46 AM   #100
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Practice and sport. Is it really that difficult? I USED 5K rounds last year!
Quote:
Originally Posted by prostuff1 View Post
If you enjoy shooting and are serious about it then it is easy to go through that many rounds.

I went last weekend and shot 250 rounds through my 9mm by myself. Imaging doing that every weekend or every other weekend and you can easily go through that many rounds.
Next question for both of you. Where do you shoot.

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Zombies. Hard buggers to kill.
Isn't a pump action shot gun best for zombies?
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Last edited by stridemat; Jan 11, 2013 at 11:57 AM. Reason: updated quote
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