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Old Jan 8, 2013, 02:54 AM   #26
LeeM
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Originally Posted by Elmzeh View Post
Great question, I think the base model is 5.5kg and battery life is just under 2 hours - they do say that it's meant to be a desktop replacement so not ideal portability wise unless its constantly plugged in.

So portability wise I know the MacBook Pro will fly rings around the Windows Laptop but does the pure power behind the system mean it will be better for creative software over the MacBook Pro?
wow. you could probably spec a desktop to the same sort of level with a bigger screen for a lot less.
that laptop is ugly as **** and completely useless as a laptop, the macbook youve ordered is better in every way.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:06 AM   #27
Ploki
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Wow. Dual 670M GTX.

Apple could fit 680MX in cMBP if they were done away with the optical drive. I really hate them for that.

Wow, it also has a six-core CPU.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:13 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by LeeM View Post
wow. you could probably spec a desktop to the same sort of level with a bigger screen for a lot less.
that laptop is ugly as **** and completely useless as a laptop, the macbook youve ordered is better in every way.
That's true too. That thing is massive, likely heavy. Oh and the battery? For starters, it's a decade-old-technology Li-Ion, which isn't going to last. 6 months from now the battery life will be markedly reduced. Secondly, coming in at under 80 watt hours, with desktop class hardware, good luck getting 2 hours out of that thing, much less the 5+ you're likely to consistently experience with the MBP. The MacBook Pro has roughly the same Watt-Hours, but with much lower power-draw components (significantly lower) and being Li-Po technology vs. Li-Ion, it actually means a bit more battery life over a similar sized (and similar draw) Li-Ion, and more importantly, more charge cycles. You'll be at 80% 1000 cycles from now. With this one you linked to, you will not be anywhere close to that. In fact, at 1,000 cycles, with the kind of heat and heavy draw that machine will have, you'll likely not have 20 or 30 minutes of battery life left. (Not that it was much to begin with!)

Hence one of the reasons I own a MacBook Pro. I want my laptop to be a laptop! Portable, good battery life, etc. The bonus of it being 2012 and being from Apple, is that I still get desktop level performance.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploki View Post
Wow. Dual 670M GTX.

Apple could fit 680MX in cMBP if they were done away with the optical drive. I really hate them for that.

Wow, it also has a six-core CPU.
They discussed a bit in the Keynote that the Retina MBP was for people who were willing to ditch legacy technologies in favor of ONLY the latest and greatest performance. Conversely, one could assume Apple feels the cMBP is for consumers who still want to have those legacy technologies on their machines. So I don't think the Optical Drive is going anywhere for at least another generation. However, Apple IS usually quick to drop stuff like that (Floppy drive, for example, which they were heavily criticized for. Seems silly now. I remember Steve Jobs mentioned people could use USB storage devices, small ones, to store their files, and people thought that was ludacris. Heh, turns out he was right eh?)

I think we'll have another year of the cMBP balancing legacy technologies and the latest technologies, then I think we'll see Apple transition over to 'next generation only' architecture. All flash, no more legacy technologies (ODD, firewire, etc.) and perhaps a discrete GPU for the 13" (Something I would personally love, as I love the 13" form factor)
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 05:14 AM   #29
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"Once you go Mac, you'll never go back."
How true! Now that I have discovered the new PCU's won't be available very soon I have just placed my order for a new 15" MBP with Hi-Res display. What stopped me from going retina was the fact you couldn't use a Kensington lock on it

Once it arrives I shall swap the drive for a 512 SSD and upgrade the RAM to 16GB

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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:34 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by el-John-o View Post
That's true too. That thing is massive, likely heavy. Oh and the battery? For starters, it's a decade-old-technology Li-Ion, which isn't going to last. 6 months from now the battery life will be markedly reduced. Secondly, coming in at under 80 watt hours, with desktop class hardware, good luck getting 2 hours out of that thing, much less the 5+ you're likely to consistently experience with the MBP. The MacBook Pro has roughly the same Watt-Hours, but with much lower power-draw components (significantly lower) and being Li-Po technology vs. Li-Ion, it actually means a bit more battery life over a similar sized (and similar draw) Li-Ion, and more importantly, more charge cycles. You'll be at 80% 1000 cycles from now. With this one you linked to, you will not be anywhere close to that. In fact, at 1,000 cycles, with the kind of heat and heavy draw that machine will have, you'll likely not have 20 or 30 minutes of battery life left. (Not that it was much to begin with!)

Hence one of the reasons I own a MacBook Pro. I want my laptop to be a laptop! Portable, good battery life, etc. The bonus of it being 2012 and being from Apple, is that I still get desktop level performance.

----------



They discussed a bit in the Keynote that the Retina MBP was for people who were willing to ditch legacy technologies in favor of ONLY the latest and greatest performance. Conversely, one could assume Apple feels the cMBP is for consumers who still want to have those legacy technologies on their machines. So I don't think the Optical Drive is going anywhere for at least another generation. However, Apple IS usually quick to drop stuff like that (Floppy drive, for example, which they were heavily criticized for. Seems silly now. I remember Steve Jobs mentioned people could use USB storage devices, small ones, to store their files, and people thought that was ludacris. Heh, turns out he was right eh?)

I think we'll have another year of the cMBP balancing legacy technologies and the latest technologies, then I think we'll see Apple transition over to 'next generation only' architecture. All flash, no more legacy technologies (ODD, firewire, etc.) and perhaps a discrete GPU for the 13" (Something I would personally love, as I love the 13" form factor)
Yeah, I've heard about that. That's what I like about Apple is that they are innovators and bring "the next big thing" or future technology and standards into the market.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 08:01 AM   #31
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Anyway... I could go on and on with a bunch of things that I could say that you'll say "But is that worth the price?" Ultimately you'll fire that thing up and be hooked. You DO pay a premium, but it's not all profit margin. Apple refuses to cut corners. That makes a more expensive product. Also makes a fantastic product.
State of the art, and high quality products, yes, but it's still all profit margin. Apple knows their products are so attractive that people are prepared to pay a bit extra, known as "the Apple tax". It's a well known fact Apple that has the highest profit margins in the industry.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 09:30 AM   #32
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In addition to all the comments above about RAM-size and battery-life and weight and HDD-size the following:
I had exactly the same feeling when I bought my first Mac in 2008, an iMac with a core duo processor. It was twice the price of a comparable windows PC. And I was a lifelong PC-builder. You name it, I have build it. Everything from a hardcore video-editing PC with triple scsi-II 10k discs via fan-less/noiseless home-theater PCs to water-resistant PCs for use onboard yachts.
But none of those PCs are in use anymore while that first iMac is still being used daily. The mains reason? It just works. No fiddling, almost noiseless, no problems with drivers and bios settings and difficult OS-updates. But, to be honest, a bit boring
As can be seen from my signature I have now moved completely to Apple. And if I want to do some old-fashioned fiddling I start Parallels and play with Linux or Win 3.1 or whatever OS takes my fancy for a short time. It is great to be able to that and it is great to be able to go back to OSX.
You will be fine, enjoy the ride!
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 01:54 PM   #33
el-John-o
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Originally Posted by Mackan View Post
State of the art, and high quality products, yes, but it's still all profit margin. Apple knows their products are so attractive that people are prepared to pay a bit extra, known as "the Apple tax". It's a well known fact Apple that has the highest profit margins in the industry.
It's not a well known fact, it's an oft-assumed fact. Their profit margins ARE high, but not the highest. For example, both Microsoft and Samsung have higher profit margins on tablets than Apple. Their notebooks also remain on the high end, but not the HIGHEST on profit. But of course, that ONLY assumes the cost for materials vs the cost of the device. Apple spends substantially more in R&D than any other company in order to develop these products. They also spend a ton on R&D for products that never see the light of day, all increasing their cost of doing business.

It's no secret Apple is successful and is making a lot of money, though.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:20 PM   #34
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You're going to love it. After using it for 20 minutes, or maybe when you get used to the scrolling, you won't care about Windows anymore.

Regardless of the hardware, OS X is a polished gem of an operating system. It's updated like clockwork and it's slick as heck. It does the very best of sucking every ounce of power out of your hardware, from my point of view it's easily twice as efficient as Windows.

I was a long time Windows user, I've taken every step from 3.1 to Windows 7, at that point I was geeking out and usually just ran Ubuntu Linux full time, while using virtualization for my Windows apps. I thought to myself there has to be a better way to get that Linux/Unix ('nix) stability with the compatibility I need - and it was staring me right in the face. I installed Lion on to my PC, shortly after getting my feet wet I bought an iPad, Mac Pro, iPhone and last week a cMBP (13", 2.9 i7, 8GB RAM, DIY upgrade to 256GB SSD) and I could not be happier in any respect with the technology I use.

I live in NY and until fairly recently lived in the city, my exposure to Apple users was mostly of the hipster variety so for years I just looked away. Once I got in to it though, I mean, OS X - this is SUPER geeky stuff, It's Unix, if you want to tinker oh boy can you tinker. If you want to sit back, relax and just use the machine, you can do that too. These Apple guys are the best at what they do.

Sure, you'll need to force quit an app here or there, but your computer won't freak out and pause and read the hard drive for a minute and lock up, you won't get a blue screen flash. You won't have to dig through 30 sub menus to change something, etc. It's not even the faults that Window's has, but it's just the overall responsiveness and polish of OS X that makes it so much better.

It's fast - REAL fast, it runs the latest and greats apps, from Office to Adobe's suite, and have you noticed more and more game devs are developing for Mac? Their app store is sweet and curated but you can install anything you want.

The design of the machine itself is top notch, When I use my Apple stuff sometimes I really think to myself, wow, they just did think of everything, and it shows.

It's not a spec to spec, dollar to dollar comparison, it's the overall value of the experience.There's an inherent value to using OS X and another one for not using Windows, I'm really sure you'll see that after you use it for a bit.

P.S. did I mention it was fast?
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:31 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by thefredelement View Post
You're going to love it. After using it for 20 minutes, or maybe when you get used to the scrolling, you won't care about Windows anymore.

Regardless of the hardware, OS X is a polished gem of an operating system. It's updated like clockwork and it's slick as heck. It does the very best of sucking every ounce of power out of your hardware, from my point of view it's easily twice as efficient as Windows.

I was a long time Windows user, I've taken every step from 3.1 to Windows 7, at that point I was geeking out and usually just ran Ubuntu Linux full time, while using virtualization for my Windows apps. I thought to myself there has to be a better way to get that Linux/Unix ('nix) stability with the compatibility I need - and it was staring me right in the face. I installed Lion on to my PC, shortly after getting my feet wet I bought an iPad, Mac Pro, iPhone and last week a cMBP (13", 2.9 i7, 8GB RAM, DIY upgrade to 256GB SSD) and I could not be happier in any respect with the technology I use.

I live in NY and until fairly recently lived in the city, my exposure to Apple users was mostly of the hipster variety so for years I just looked away. Once I got in to it though, I mean, OS X - this is SUPER geeky stuff, It's Unix, if you want to tinker oh boy can you tinker. If you want to sit back, relax and just use the machine, you can do that too. These Apple guys are the best at what they do.

Sure, you'll need to force quit an app here or there, but your computer won't freak out and pause and read the hard drive for a minute and lock up, you won't get a blue screen flash. You won't have to dig through 30 sub menus to change something, etc. It's not even the faults that Window's has, but it's just the overall responsiveness and polish of OS X that makes it so much better.

It's fast - REAL fast, it runs the latest and greats apps, from Office to Adobe's suite, and have you noticed more and more game devs are developing for Mac? Their app store is sweet and curated but you can install anything you want.

The design of the machine itself is top notch, When I use my Apple stuff sometimes I really think to myself, wow, they just did think of everything, and it shows.

It's not a spec to spec, dollar to dollar comparison, it's the overall value of the experience.There's an inherent value to using OS X and another one for not using Windows, I'm really sure you'll see that after you use it for a bit.

P.S. did I mention it was fast?
That was a pretty good review that I enjoyed reading

You made a good point about people comparing them. Windows shouldn't even be compared to OSX because OSX is on a totally different level.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:21 PM   #36
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Turbo boost basically ramps up the clock speed of a single core when the other cores aren't being used. It's great for single threaded applications, but like I said, both the MBP you ordered and that 17" PC you are looking at have the same capability.
Somewhat false. There's an algorithm that balances voltage, heat, cores, and clock speed to achieve the best performance. Theoretically, under ideal cooling conditions, the Turbo Boost frequency can be applied to all cores.

However, when the computer heats up, it usually applies to two cores, depending on how many threads the OS is requesting during the Maximum Processor State. It's extremely rare that the maximum clock speed is achieved, as many applications get more performance out of 4 slightly higher clocked cores than a single extremely high clocked core.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:34 PM   #37
thundersteele
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Originally Posted by Elmzeh View Post
Wow I never realised that, I just assumed it was 3.6ghz standard! Is the turbo boost similar or the same as overclocking? If so isn't running on turbo boost for an extended amount of time bad on any system as it burns out the hardware?
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The i7-3820 (3.6GHz) used in that PC is the same processor used in the top of the line non retina 15 MBP. The 3.6GHz is the "turbo boost" speed, during multithreaded operation, it'll tun at 2.7GHz. At stock speed it's only 100MHz faster than the CPU in the MBP you bought(which is also capable of 3.6GHz "turbo boost".)
This is quite wrong. The "other" laptop is a gaming laptop with desktop CPU and GPUs, while the MBP has mobile CPU and graphics.

The details:
i7-3820 (the desktop CPU)
clock speed 3.6 GHz
max turbo 3.8 GHz

i7-3720qm (the MBP)
clock speed 2.6 GHz
max turbo 3.6 GHz

Note that the desktop CPU can run at 3.6 GHz continuously with appropriate cooling. The mobile CPU can peak at 3.6 GHz but will clock down to 2.6 GHz (or even lower) once the temperature catches up (this takes a few seconds probably).


There is no point in my opinion to compare the two machines. One is a desktop-replacement made for gaming that weights 5.5kg, plus another kg for the massive power brick that you would have to carry around since the battery life is pathetic.
The MBP is a mobile laptop with less than half the weight and easily 5-7 hours of battery life with light work load. If gaming performance is more important than portability, by all means the OP should go for the gaming "laptop".
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 08:24 PM   #38
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Hey everyone!

Thanks so much for all of your responses, the general vibe I'm getting is that MBP's are amazing and OSX is incredible - with the opportunity to get a full refund within 14 days of receiving the system if I don't like it there is no reason for me to not go ahead and give it a try!

The whole reason I initially wanted to go for a MacBook Pro is because I definitely didn't want to get another desktop and don't really want a gaming focused laptop/desktop replacement as I'm not as heavily into games as I once was - as long as it can run games like Counter Strike, Diablo 3, LoL and DOTA 2 on with good performance ill be happy! (Definitely not expecting to be playing Crysis 3 on ultra settings with it!)

So while gaming performance is part of what I'm after it doesn't make up the full package. I want a great system that works fast, looks good, is reliable and will last and that I can use to perform everyday tasks as well as trying my hand at Photo and Video editing as well as music production... Looking over everyone's responses it really does sound like the MacBook Pro / OSX is for me!

There's no way I want to carrying around a gaming based laptop/desktop replacement but one of the main things that concerned me the other night was a post I found on another forum which said laptops specced similar to the gaming one that I linked would be much much better for music, video and photo applications due to the pure power behind it.. Thanks to all of your responses I no longer feel this is the case and even if a high specced windows system was slightly faster there's still no way it would match up to a MacBook Pro in all of the other aspects as you all have mentioned (Portability, Style, Reliability, OSX etc)

Once again thank you all for your responses and ill be sure to update you when it arrives! (It's currently in Korea but the estimated delivery date is this Friday!)

All the best,

Elmzeh
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 08:39 PM   #39
xShane
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Originally Posted by Elmzeh View Post
Hey everyone!

Thanks so much for all of your responses, the general vibe I'm getting is that MBP's are amazing and OSX is incredible - with the opportunity to get a full refund within 14 days of receiving the system if I don't like it there is no reason for me to not go ahead and give it a try!

The whole reason I initially wanted to go for a MacBook Pro is because I definitely didn't want to get another desktop and don't really want a gaming focused laptop/desktop replacement as I'm not as heavily into games as I once was - as long as it can run games like Counter Strike, Diablo 3, LoL and DOTA 2 on with good performance ill be happy! (Definitely not expecting to be playing Crysis 3 on ultra settings with it!)

So while gaming performance is part of what I'm after it doesn't make up the full package. I want a great system that works fast, looks good, is reliable and will last and that I can use to perform everyday tasks as well as trying my hand at Photo and Video editing as well as music production... Looking over everyone's responses it really does sound like the MacBook Pro / OSX is for me!

There's no way I want to carrying around a gaming based laptop/desktop replacement but one of the main things that concerned me the other night was a post I found on another forum which said laptops specced similar to the gaming one that I linked would be much much better for music, video and photo applications due to the pure power behind it.. Thanks to all of your responses I no longer feel this is the case and even if a high specced windows system was slightly faster there's still no way it would match up to a MacBook Pro in all of the other aspects as you all have mentioned (Portability, Style, Reliability, OSX etc)

Once again thank you all for your responses and ill be sure to update you when it arrives! (It's currently in Korea but the estimated delivery date is this Friday!)

All the best,

Elmzeh
Glad you got everything worked out and that we all could help you

Enjoy your new MacBook Pro
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 12:43 AM   #40
Dominus Mortem
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Windows feels clunky to me after using a Mac now for 2 1/2 years. Everything is smoother and more intuitive. At first I thought I'd just get one Mac machine and keep most of my Windows machines. After 6 months all the PCs/Windows machines were gone. Never missed them. I look at and play with the Windows laptops when I see them in stores but they feel years behind the MB Pro and Air.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 03:06 PM   #41
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Just breezed over this post. But let me give you my 2 cents if i may . I have a strictly gaming PC i built my self, can run anything on ultra. Recently i got the bright idea to put my macbook pro mid 2010, on ebay, and get a Asus 14" g46vw, i5, 660m, 8gb ram to do some light gaming on it. Wishing i never put my macbook on ebay and i believe the asus is going back for an upgrade on a new macbook. Windows 8 is less then bad, i hate it, osx is so fluid especially equipped with QS app, it just works. Granted the little asus gets decent battery life and looks nice, screen quality is bad also, i can't get used to it compared to my macbook. Another problem with having a gaming laptop, and a pc gaming laptop, i find myself less on my pc desktop now which rips games apart and playing on this sub par laptop. I think its nice to have diversity, one really nice gaming PC and a macbook laptop, two of the same type like i have now, i just don't really enjoy it.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 12:47 PM   #42
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Macbook Pro

I made the change from Windows to Mac a few weeks ago, It's one of the best decisions I've made. Everything about OSX is better than Windows. It's a lot smoother. I wouldn't recommend it for running games though, my 13 inch MBP with the dual core I7 and 8GB Ram can reach temperatures of 105C when running simple games, Apple claim this to be normal but It's got to have some impact on the hardware. The games themselves run smooth but the temperature does get a little to much, if you don't mind the heat you'll be fine.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 01:14 PM   #43
1member1
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I had cold feet before ordering my 13 rmbp.
Yeah it's pricey sometimes even too much but I'm enjoying it so much.
I don't think I ever owned a laptop like this before.

I had old white macbook that is end of life and I couldn't use it. I suffered with PC for 2-3 years until I could get mac of my own.
I think you will enjoy it. you will find a better ways to make your life easier and of course the peace of mind of OS X.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 08:03 PM   #44
Elmzeh
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Talking **Update**

Hey everyone,

Just thought I'd give you a quick update;

After days of monitoring its progress all the way from Shanghai, China - my MacBook Pro has arrived!

To give you an idea on how hooked I am so far, I got home from work at around 6pm in the evening and am still on it now at 1:30am and I'm seriously impressed.

First of all, after watching a few unboxing videos I knew what to expect but it still didn't prepare me for what was in store.. before we even get to the system itself I've got to say it comes in the most amazing, clear and attractive packaging that I have ever seen. It wasn't only myself that noticed, there were clear gasps around the room as I began to open the box and slowly reveal the beauty that is the MBP;

It's taken me a while to get use to and adapt to some of the basics but Apple was more than happy to help me with my queries while getting started.

Once the system had been set up and I'd done a bit of browsing and downloading of some key applications I decided to do some benchmark and performance tests;

Performance Tests

Boot Time: 27-31 Seconds
NovaBench Score: 1249
Geekbench Score: 12040
Static Temperature: 36 Degrees (I'm not 100% sure what the main temp is that I have to monitor while the system is running, I've downloaded the "Temperature Monitor" app and this is the temp that it says there however I believe that its referring to the Heatsink temp?)

In regards to the CPU Core temperatures, while the system is almost idle they sit at around 52 degrees.

Gaming Performance (So Far)

So as I mentioned in the start of this thread, I've not been looking for an ultimate gaming system and I definitely didn't want to get a desktop computer although I do enjoy some casual gaming through Steam and on such games as Diablo III, LoL etc;

As it stands I've only tested the system on my trial account of Diablo III and once again have been surprised; On mostly high settings the FPS has been stable at 60, occasionally dropping and jolting as I entered new areas within the game but this is to be expected. All in all the game itself seems to run extremely well and smooth although I am only in the initial levels of the game so it may become a bit slower as I start dealing with larger groups of mobs on screen.

While playing Diablo III the fans did kick in around 3-4 times that was noticeable but it wasn't a distracting or horrible sound, if anything it just felt like the system was calmly telling me that it was working just a little bit harder! These moments of the fans being noticeable only lasted for around 15-30 seconds then they would stop which was impressive as I expected them to kick in as soon as I loaded the game up but they only seem to come on at certain points which is impressive

After 40 minutes of gameplay the top left of the MacBook Pro is slightly warm but nothing serious at all (This once again is a pleasant surprise as I couldn't even browse the internet on my last laptop while it was on a flat surface as it would overheat and shut down after around 30 minutes of use!)

I checked the CPU Core Temperature as soon as I quit the game and I believe that they was sitting around the 73 - 86 degrees mark which as far as I'm aware isn't too bad at all!

So far I've tested out some basic applications, done some casual browsing, a little bit of gaming and as it stands am truly incredibly impressed;

All of you was absolutely right, it is a beautiful system and machine.. seeing the Apple logo light up as the system begins to boot is amazing especially after only ever seeing it in the Apple Store and in movies before now!

A few members of my family came to see me initially boot the system up to see what it looked like and they was also amazed. It just so happens that I was setting it up in a dimly lit room of the house and had totally forgot about the backlit keyboard.... well I must say when the logo lit up on the back and the keyboard came to life with a divine glow they couldn't take their eyes off of it and mutually agreed it was probably the best looking laptop they'd ever seen + they also thought the magsafe charger was pretty snazzy too

I'd like to thank all of you that have responded to this thread so far and I will be sure to update you over the next 1-2 weeks while I give it a try through the 14 day grace period but so far all in all.. I love it!

There are still a few things I need to update to such as scrolling down on the mouse wheel moves up the page and vice versa as well as getting use to the swipe movements on the trackpad but they will all come in time.

Over the coming days I will be hoping to test some additional software as well as a few more games. Should the results prove positive (Which I'm confident they will) I am considering doing a full YouTube gaming review of the system but depending on time I may post the results either in this thread or in a brand new one to give others who have been curious like me some clear, concise and updated info about the gaming capabilities of the machine!

Day 1 down, 13 to go.

More updates to follow - watch this space!
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 08:47 PM   #45
Ledgem
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I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying your new system. The transition to Mac can be a bit rough; if you're finding it to be that way, virtualization software is the way to go. Back when I switched over, I virtualized Windows almost all the time for the first week that I used my Macbook Pro. It allowed me to operate without any performance penalty due to my getting used to the system. I slowly found replacement software to my Windows programs and learned the Mac side of things on my own time, and weaned off of the virtualization. After about a month or so I was only rarely virtualizing.

There are some things that Windows does better than OS X, and there are some things that OS X does better. I wouldn't necessarily mind using Windows 7 as my main OS if I had to, but Windows 8 looks terrible.

Switching away from OS X would be rather painful, but not so much because of OS X itself. Apple's tight integration of all of its devices is seamless and a very nice feature. Windows can access iCloud services, too, but it's not quite the same. I also use the "Magic Trackpad" and rely on the gestures quite heavily - I'm not sure that there's any equivalent for Windows.
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