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Old Jan 14, 2013, 10:59 AM   #76
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I will agree with all of that stuff as long as the Commander in Chief is no longer so. When they separate the president/congress/etc from the top of command of our armed forces and the military become the people's and not the government's then I would not be against those. (If I am not mistaken I think Switzerland has something like that?)
Oh. So you want to change the Constitution?

Cool. So do I.

I want to get rid of the 2nd Amendment.

We're both on the same page.

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Old Jan 14, 2013, 11:06 AM   #77
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Wow, that's funny. The main thrust of the White House's proposals deal with limiting who has access to guns, and groups of gun rights advocates, like the NRA, oppose any effort no matter how logical.
I dare you to point to any post of mine that disagreed with that position. I don't give a crap who it is that supports the position I hold or opposes it. I believe the people that use the guns in the wrong way are the problem... not the guns themselves. If the White House is saying the same thing, then I'm all for it.

Unlike you, I don't tailor my positions to coincide with the people who I like or dislike. If I happen to be 100% in line with that which Obama is saying, great.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 11:11 AM   #78
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I dare you to point to any post of mine that disagreed with that position. I don't give a crap who it is that supports the position I hold or opposes it. I believe the people that use the guns in the wrong way are the problem... not the guns themselves. If the White House is saying the same thing, then I'm all for it.

Unlike you, I don't tailor my positions to coincide with the people who I like or dislike. If I happen to be 100% in line with that which Obama is saying, great.
Ok, but it's not just the people. It's the tools they are using. Why NOT limit the capability of the guns that are being used? Why? Is it really that important for you to own an ak-47 clone?
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 11:15 AM   #79
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I'm brainstorming some ideas, trying to balance all concerns on all sides.

Base assumptions:
1) Firearms are necessary for hunting.
2) Firearms server recreational purposes.
3) Firearms are necessary for protection against government tyranny.
4) Firearms are effective home/personal defense tools, but not the only ones.


Therefore:
1) Allow unlicensed purchase of bolt-action, non-magazine (is there a better term for that?), long-barrel rifles. Allow unlicensed purchase of breech-load shotguns. Allow unlicensed purchase of single-shot .22 sidearms (is that enough to put down a wounded animal? Perhaps a different round, if not.) Usage shall only be per rules of the state, county, municipality, and fish and game authority.

2) Handguns, shotguns, rifles, carbines, machine guns, miniguns, etc., both semi-automatic and fully-automatic, can be purchased from a licensed shooting range, but can never leave said range. Weapons would be personally owned, but checked out and in for use. Transportation to other ranges, or to competition locations, would be handled by the range. Ranges would be licensed by some authority, must comply with particular regs, admit only the mentally competent, be subject to periodic auditing, yadda yadda.

3) Think of the Switzerland setup. Reinterpret the 2nd Amendment to mean that the right the bear arms is predicated upon being an active member of a well-regulated militia. Think of the National Guard but on a state-by-state level. Military training, drills, exercises, weapons qualifications, mental competency tests. Weapon and ammunition audits. Members would be allowed to possess and keep with them their combat arms. (Same stuff as used by the regular uniformed military.)

4) No other sales of firearms except for the above usages. Promote non-lethal methods of protection. Pepper spray, tasers... what else?

Thoughts / Issues:
A) What to do about all the firearms currently in circulation?

B) Granting the government control of deciding who is mentally competent seems to me to be a much more insidious and powerful, and therefore dangerous, tool than a disarmed citizenry. Which is why I'm leaving it up to the gun ranges and militia to determine who can get access to the weapons. Perhaps such organizations can be held liable if one of their members kills somebody with their legally owned firearm, which would give them incentive to be selective.

C) There will still be killings by people owning hunting firearms, and people who somehow get guns out of shooting rangers, and people who have combat rifles from their militia activities. Hopefully such killings would happen much less frequently and ultimately be an acceptable cost - although there should always be continuous work done to reduce the number as much as possible. (Parallel - people die in car crashes all the time. It rarely makes the news unless the person is already famous. Society seems to deem those deaths acceptable due to all the advantages of cars - but at the same time there is always work being done to reduce the number of those deaths.)

D) I can see lots of complaints that non-lethal defense is not remotely good enough compared to properly used lethal defense. And I don't really have a good rebuttal. Any ideas how to keep people safe, at home and away, using strictly non-lethal means?

E) The "but what about baseball bats, knives, strangulation, etc?" objection. Yes, such killings will continue. But like cars, the utility of baseball bats and knives and hands and feet would mean we just have to accept those, except for our current methods of law enforcement to dissuade murder regardless of the method used.

F) Item #4 is intended to reduce illegally used firearms on the premise that (some? many? all?) of them started life as a legal firearm at some point. With fewer legal firearms, would there be a reduction of illegal firearms? Or would they be smuggled in from outside the country? (I assume that illegal manufacture of firearms would not become a problem.) Assuming there is a reduction of illegal firearms, would the number of crimes committed with a firearm diminish?

Last edited by elistan; Jan 22, 2013 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Added issue F.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 11:23 AM   #80
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Ok, but it's not just the people. It's the tools they are using. Why NOT limit the capability of the guns that are being used? Why? Is it really that important for you to own an ak-47 clone?
I have asked you (and others) multiple times. What capability are you referring to? Please tell me what capability a semi-automatic AK-47 clone presents that isn't available utilizing any number of non-military looking firearms?

PLEASE, stop the generalities and give me a specific answer.
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Last edited by maflynn; Jan 14, 2013 at 02:25 PM. Reason: removed insult
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 12:15 PM   #81
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If I used my sports car to intentionally kill people, then perhaps it should be banned. You know the difference.
So we should ban commercial jets then.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 12:19 PM   #82
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So we should ban commercial jets then.
No just the NY ones.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 01:13 PM   #83
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Oh. So you want to change the Constitution?

Cool. So do I.

I want to get rid of the 2nd Amendment.

We're both on the same page.

I never said anything to that nature. I said IF it happened. I never said that I would support it happening, just that it would change the dynamic enough to make me reconsider my current beliefs.

Reading comprehension...
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 01:39 PM   #84
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Oh. So you want to change the Constitution?

Cool. So do I.

I want to get rid of the 2nd Amendment.

We're both on the same page.

I disagree, depending on how it is interpreted the second amendment doesn't really guarantee that many gun rights at all.

The only real argument against it is its unbelievable lack of clarity, but that would probably require a re-write of the whole constitution to clean up.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 01:59 PM   #85
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What's funny is that Scalia, the deciding vote, said the 2nd doesn't protect assault weapons. Oh well.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:02 PM   #86
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What's funny is that Scalia, the deciding vote, said the 2nd doesn't protect assault weapons. Oh well.
Was that your answer to my query? If yes, I guess you really can't provide any specifics.

Not a big surprise.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:04 PM   #87
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Was that your answer to my query? If yes, I guess you really can't provide any specifics.

Not a big surprise.
How is a reference to the supreme court decision on this issue "not providing specifics." The fact that you don't know what I'm talking about doesn't change the point.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:14 PM   #88
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How is a reference to the supreme court decision on this issue "not providing specifics." The fact that you don't know what I'm talking about doesn't change the point.
You leave absolutely no doubt that you are an attorney. I know exactly what you are talking about. It's pretty clear to me that you will quote any number of wondrous things...

My question to you was:
Quote:
Please tell me what capability a semi-automatic AK-47 clone presents that isn't available utilizing any number of non-military looking firearms?
I'd love to hear your argument on how quoting Justice Scalia on what he feels is or isn't protected by the 2nd Amendment in any way, shape or form, answers the question I posed. Specifically, concisely and with relevance.

I am waiting for what I'm sure will be most eloquent legal doublespeak that says absolutely nothing in reference to the question.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:15 PM   #89
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You leave absolutely no doubt that you are an attorney. I know exactly what you are talking about. It's pretty clear to me that you will quote any number of wondrous things...

My question to you was:


I'd love to hear your argument on how quoting Justice Scalia on what he feels is or isn't protected by the 2nd Amendment in any way, shape or form, answers the question I posed. Specifically, concisely and with relevance.

I am waiting for what I'm sure will be most eloquent legal doublespeak that says absolutely nothing in reference to the question.
I'm getting tired of you insulting lawyers.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:18 PM   #90
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I'm getting tired of you insulting lawyers.

Objection. Lacks foundation.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:20 PM   #91
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I am waiting for what I'm sure will be most eloquent legal doublespeak that says absolutely nothing in reference to the question.

Why don't you tell me what you do for a living so I can insult and belittle your chosen profession in a pathetic, lame-ass attempt to skirt the rules regarding insulting other members.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:20 PM   #92
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I'm getting tired of you insulting lawyers.
Well, I'm getting tired of you being unable to back up a previous post with any facts at all, and then tap dancing all over the place to avoid admitting that you have no facts.

I promise to say no more about lawyers. Based on your responses and tactics I really don't have to.

I still anxiously await your answer to my previous question. But, I suspect I will never get one, at least not one that actually addresses the question with any kind of direct, factual answer.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:22 PM   #93
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Well, I'm getting tired of you being unable to back up a previous post with any facts at all, and then tap dancing all over the place to avoid admitting that you have no facts.

I promise to say no more about lawyers. Based on your responses and tactics I really don't have to.

I still anxiously await your answer to my previous question. But, I suspect I will never get one, at least not one that actually addresses the question with any kind of direct, factual answer.
You keep demanding answers about "capabilities," and yet, as a gun-advocate, you refuse to say what rules you think would be reasonable. I'll tell you what, when you tell me what rules you think would work, and would be workable, then I'll tell you what capabilties I want banned.

(edit) It's a chicken-**** argument to say we can't do anything because an "assault weapon" can't be defined to your satisfaction.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:25 PM   #94
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Why don't you tell me what you do for a living so I can insult and belittle your chosen profession in a pathetic, lame-ass attempt to skirt the rules regarding insulting other members.
No need. I already gave you permission in another thread to insult me directly using whatever derogatory terms you would like.

Take your best shot.

But, it will forever be on the record that you couldn't back up your previous post with any substantive facts.

Wail away!
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:26 PM   #95
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No need. I already gave you permission in another thread to insult me directly using whatever derogatory terms you would like.

Take your best shot.

But, it will forever be on the record that you couldn't back up your previous post with any substantive facts.

Wail away!
What facts do you need? People are dying every day due to gun violence. What more do you need? Are you really that blind?

(edit) Gun ownership has gone up in this country, and gun crime has gone up in this coutnry and in Mexico.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:32 PM   #96
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What facts do you need? People are dying every day due to gun violence. What more do you need? Are you really that blind?

So you're saying guns commit crimes? Maybe they make people crazy or make them homicidal? Get rid of guns and people won't kill people anymore?

At one time nearly every home had a loaded unlocked gun in it, and we didn't have school shootings. Maybe they are lacing "assault rifles" with LSD or possibly bath salts.

----------

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(edit) Gun ownership has gone up in this country, and gun crime has gone up in this coutnry and in Mexico.
Population has gone up as well, increasing your chances of crazy people.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:32 PM   #97
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What facts do you need? People are dying every day due to gun violence. What more do you need? Are you really that blind?
I understand that people are dying every day, and I sorely would like that to change. I have offerred what I believe are reasonable and potentially effective ways to combat this.

However, you really need to learn that when you post something and someone subsequently calls you out on it, you should either answer the question:
Quote:
Please tell me what capability a semi-automatic AK-47 clone presents that isn't available utilizing any number of non-military looking firearms?
or admit that you had no basis in fact for your post.

Which is the case here. Your post was totally emotion based. You've been running away from it in every possible direction since I responded.

I think we can just forget it. Anyone else reading this thread has already seen where you are (or aren't) with regard to the question.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:46 PM   #98
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Population has gone up as well, increasing your chances of crazy people.

True but how does one tell the difference between the crazies and the gun nuts?
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:55 PM   #99
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True but how does one tell the difference between the crazies and the gun nuts?

It's funny how after these shootings happen everyone talks about how this guy has been "a little off" or was in counseling. It seems every knew most of theses homicidal maniacs were crazy before they did the shooting. I want to know why they weren't being treated, and as for Lanza, why were his mother's guns accessible to him? It sounded like she was trying to have him put into treatment, and that he even told his brother he was going to do this.

Sounds like to me we could weed out many of these people by learning the signs of this. Then we could encourage concealed carry to help stop a massacre. The more concealed carry the more likely a good samaritan will be there to stop a massacre. One or two though an atrocity is better than 20 or 30.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 02:57 PM   #100
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What's funny is that Scalia, the deciding vote, said the 2nd doesn't protect assault weapons. Oh well.
Kennedy was the deciding, or swing vote.

Scalia authored the majority opinion.

Said nothing regarding 'assault weapons'

2nd protects "weapons in common use at the time"
Militia today to be as effective as 18th century militias may require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society
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