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Old Jan 14, 2013, 04:23 PM   #251
TriJetHero
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JB has become harder and harder with fewer holes.

They have on exploit they don't want to burn, best guess it is a very easy entry with that one.

They don't want to burn it because of futute jailbreaks, beter to wait a while longer for a new exploit to replace that one than not have any entry point for the next jailbreak, it's chess, thinking several moves ahead, only sacrifice the queen to save the game. Too early for that.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 04:28 PM   #252
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Let me just see if I have my thinking straight on this, because the way I'm visualizng it, I'm not following you on this.

Okay, so the current 6.0.2 untethered makes use of one important exploit (Big Betty) and 3+ others. To release a 6.0.x, they need one more exploit to replace Big Betty. Maybe they have one, maybe they don't; they're not required to go public with that.

In order to have a 6.1 untethered, they will need that additional exploit PLUS new exploits to make up for whatever is lost by the 6.1 fixes.

In both cases, Big Betty isn't used as part of the jb so the devs can continue to use it to explore new versions of iOS.

So then what's stopping them from releasing a 6.0.x jb once 6.1 launches? Worry that they will lose the exploits? In that case, why ever release a jb? (Maybe there's something about past jailbreaks I'm not aware of that makes the current situation different). PB's posts implied that once 6.1 launches, there are some exploits they are willing to burn (or at least he would be), but maybe I totally misread that.

Thanks in advance, I'm looking to learn more about the concepts involved (as opposed to arguing that a jb is in the near future).
You're over speculating and analyzing too much. Point is, jb for 6.0.X won't be released unless GM of 6.1 burns the core exploits they have at present. If it doesn't burn them, we're in a holding pattern again.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 06:18 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by TriJetHero View Post
JB has become harder and harder with fewer holes.

They have on exploit they don't want to burn, best guess it is a very easy entry with that one.

They don't want to burn it because of futute jailbreaks, beter to wait a while longer for a new exploit to replace that one than not have any entry point for the next jailbreak, it's chess, thinking several moves ahead, only sacrifice the queen to save the game. Too early for that.
Great summary. Word.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 07:23 PM   #254
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Best I could do.
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 09:50 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by TriJetHero View Post
They have on exploit they don't want to burn, best guess it is a very easy entry with that one.

They don't want to burn it because of futute jailbreaks, beter to wait a while longer for a new exploit to replace that one than not have any entry point for the next jailbreak, it's chess, thinking several moves ahead, only sacrifice the queen to save the game. Too early for that.
I get this part of it; PB was pretty clear about that, and it makes sense. No point in giving up a good entry point into a new iOS build.

Let me rephrase my question: say they were able to build a jb which didn't use that one important exploit at all and which took advantage of new exploits found in 6.1. Would there then be a reason to wait, or would it make sense to release a public jb at that point?
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 10:22 PM   #256
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id assume they might want to wait to save that exploit too lol. its like when is it time to burn an exploit or make it where the exploit can last longer
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Old Jan 14, 2013, 11:43 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by td1439 View Post
Let me just see if I have my thinking straight on this, because the way I'm visualizng it, I'm not following you on this.

Okay, so the current 6.0.2 untethered makes use of one important exploit (Big Betty) and 3+ others. To release a 6.0.x, they need one more exploit to replace Big Betty. Maybe they have one, maybe they don't; they're not required to go public with that.

In order to have a 6.1 untethered, they will need that additional exploit PLUS new exploits to make up for whatever is lost by the 6.1 fixes.

In both cases, Big Betty isn't used as part of the jb so the devs can continue to use it to explore new versions of iOS.

So then what's stopping them from releasing a 6.0.x jb once 6.1 launches? Worry that they will lose the exploits? In that case, why ever release a jb? (Maybe there's something about past jailbreaks I'm not aware of that makes the current situation different). PB's posts implied that once 6.1 launches, there are some exploits they are willing to burn (or at least he would be), but maybe I totally misread that.
What's stopping them from releasing the a 6.0.X JB once 6.1 launches (assuming that "Big Betty" isn't patched by Apple) is the fact that they would still have to burn the "Big Betty" exploit that they want to save for the future. What you seem not to be grasping is that currently they have no other way to do what "Big Betty" does. If they find such a way in 6.0.X, of course, then they very well might burn it to release a jailbreak (or if the new hole is better they might keep that and burn "Betty"); or they might wait until 6.1 is released and see which is patched before deciding and if both are patched use the one that's easiest. But until they find such a new exploit (or BB is patched) there will be no jailbreak...whether 6.1 is released or not.

Nobody is saying that the situation won't change with the discovery of new exploits, merely that the release of 6.1 won't automatically change anything, as some people seem to be assuming.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 12:25 AM   #258
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What you seem not to be grasping is that currently they have no other way to do what "Big Betty" does.
Ah, okay. That was indeed the part I wasn't understanding. Thanks. So now we just hope there's some kind of breakthrough after 6.1 launches, I guess.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:32 PM   #259
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Ah, okay. That was indeed the part I wasn't understanding. Thanks. So now we just hope there's some kind of breakthrough after 6.1 launches, I guess.
Or before. There's no reason to think that 6.1 will necessarily change the situation. That's my whole point: 6.1 is only relevant if it patches the exploit we've been calling "Big Betty." Otherwise it won't really change anything. We'll still be waiting for them to find an exploit.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:44 PM   #260
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So, would this mean it's safe to update to 6.0.2?
I'm currently on 6.0, and been having some WiFi issues.

I wouldn't think a jailbreak would be released that didn't work on the most current version.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:53 PM   #261
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So, would this mean it's safe to update to 6.0.2?
I'm currently on 6.0, and been having some WiFi issues.

I wouldn't think a jailbreak would be released that didn't work on the most current version.
Staying at 6 would be the best option for right now
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:07 PM   #262
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So, would this mean it's safe to update to 6.0.2?
I'm currently on 6.0, and been having some WiFi issues.

I wouldn't think a jailbreak would be released that didn't work on the most current version.
Agree with you. I think it's safe to go to 6.0.2.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:26 PM   #263
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For the highest likelihood to jailbreak, you should always stay put. We don't know which exploits the devs have located, and if Apple somehow already patched them in 6.0.1 or 6.0.2.

At this point, with 6.1 hopefully being released within a week or so (according to speculation at least), you might as well hold out just a little bit longer.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:47 PM   #264
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Or before. There's no reason to think that 6.1 will necessarily change the situation. That's my whole point: 6.1 is only relevant if it patches the exploit we've been calling "Big Betty." Otherwise it won't really change anything. We'll still be waiting for them to find an exploit.
Is there an important difference between the terms "bug" and "exploit"? If so, that would account for some of my misunderstanding. I just went back and re-read the Reddit post in question, and PB talked about 4+ bugs used in the jb he mentioned. I had sort of been thinking of "bug" and "exploit" interchangeably, but now I'm wondering if that's incorrect.

Thanks for your patience. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so I can follow these discussions on a conceptual level (it's for darn sure I'll never be able to follow them on a technical level ).
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:17 PM   #265
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Is there an important difference between the terms "bug" and "exploit"? If so, that would account for some of my misunderstanding. I just went back and re-read the Reddit post in question, and PB talked about 4+ bugs used in the jb he mentioned. I had sort of been thinking of "bug" and "exploit" interchangeably, but now I'm wondering if that's incorrect.

Thanks for your patience. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so I can follow these discussions on a conceptual level (it's for darn sure I'll never be able to follow them on a technical level ).
an exploit is always a bug. a bug isn't necessarily an exploit.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:40 PM   #266
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Is there an important difference between the terms "bug" and "exploit"? If so, that would account for some of my misunderstanding. I just went back and re-read the Reddit post in question, and PB talked about 4+ bugs used in the jb he mentioned. I had sort of been thinking of "bug" and "exploit" interchangeably, but now I'm wondering if that's incorrect.

Thanks for your patience. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so I can follow these discussions on a conceptual level (it's for darn sure I'll never be able to follow them on a technical level ).
An exploit is a bug that's been used (exploited) to accomplish something. Planetbeing's jailbreak exploits four different bugs to accomplish different tasks necessary to the jailbreak (one might allow him to gain access to the file system, another to modify the kernel, another to boot the modified kernel, etc.). Without any one of those four exploits he would not be able to have a working untethered jailbreak. Of those four, there is one that allows him to access the kernel which he and others are not willing to release to the public. That's the holdup.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:07 PM   #267
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An exploit is a bug that's been used (exploited) to accomplish something. Planetbeing's jailbreak exploits four different bugs to accomplish different tasks necessary to the jailbreak (one might allow him to gain access to the file system, another to modify the kernel, another to boot the modified kernel, etc.). Without any one of those four exploits he would not be able to have a working untethered jailbreak. Of those four, there is one that allows him to access the kernel which he and others are not willing to release to the public. That's the holdup.
Thanks again - most helpful.

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At this point, with 6.1 hopefully being released within a week or so (according to speculation at least),
Yeah, wasn't the 6.1 beta 5 supposed to go out last Friday or yesterday? Seems like there hasn't been any word of it so far.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:15 PM   #268
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Sorry, but no. We all here love our jailbreak, but we are the extreme minority. While Apple may lose a few sales due to lack of a jailbreak, they gain many more in the corporate sector for having the safest locked up mobile OS. They will never intentionally leave holes for JB exploits.

That said, the JB community provided lots of great inspiration for tweaks, so Apple should give credit where it's due and realize opening iOS to a degree would only help it grow.

I do agree with moving to Android. I don't like Android but am excited to play with a more open and configurable OS if there is no jailbreak or if iOS 7 is as stale as iOS 6.
Corporate customers don't care. If they don't want their devices JB'ed, then they can not allow their employees to JB.

I will move to Android when 5.0.1 is finally too old and decrepit for me if there are no more JBs.

Apple should just give an option to have root access without a JB. Or maybe give it to developers or something, and then everyone who wants to have the same would have to pay $99/year for a developer account. How funny and Apple-esque would that be?

What about those of us on 5.0.1 or 5.1.1 if they drop a JB for 6.0.1? Will there be a short window where we can still get the IPSWs for 6.0.1 signed to upgrade to that before the window closes and we'd be forced onto a non-jailbreakable 6.1. I don't see this as a very doable option. I'm thinking either 6.1 or nothing.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:38 PM   #269
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Corporate customers don't care. If they don't want their devices JB'ed, then they can not allow their employees to JB.

I will move to Android when 5.0.1 is finally too old and decrepit for me if there are no more JBs.

Apple should just give an option to have root access without a JB. Or maybe give it to developers or something, and then everyone who wants to have the same would have to pay $99/year for a developer account. How funny and Apple-esque would that be?

What about those of us on 5.0.1 or 5.1.1 if they drop a JB for 6.0.1? Will there be a short window where we can still get the IPSWs for 6.0.1 signed to upgrade to that before the window closes and we'd be forced onto a non-jailbreakable 6.1. I don't see this as a very doable option. I'm thinking either 6.1 or nothing.
You missed my point. By allowing a jailbreak, it means there is a security exploit. Security is the first priority to any decent IT department of a corporate environment.

Once 6.1 drops you'll probably have at most 24 hours if we're going by average past trends.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 07:47 AM   #270
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An exploit is a bug that's been used (exploited) to accomplish something. Planetbeing's jailbreak exploits four different bugs to accomplish different tasks necessary to the jailbreak (one might allow him to gain access to the file system, another to modify the kernel, another to boot the modified kernel, etc.). Without any one of those four exploits he would not be able to have a working untethered jailbreak. Of those four, there is one that allows him to access the kernel which he and others are not willing to release to the public. That's the holdup.
very helpful explanation. thanks.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 08:31 AM   #271
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...what i completely not understand with this "holding back for future jailbreak" thing is the following:

if you holding something back so it will not be patched is fine as long as there are no big changes ahead which perhaps make all exploits useless.

What about the issue that we're in mid january the last 5.x version was 5.1.1 and a new hardware platform (5s, 6 whatever) is around the corner? So i'm assuming we will see 6.1.1 before 7.x is coming out with a new iphone which completely changes the game because of new processor and such.
Remember the 4s had new hardware included and there is no unthethered jailbreak available for a long time. At the same time a jailbreak for 6.x is possible regarding the software only on old hardware.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 10:49 AM   #272
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...what i completely not understand with this "holding back for future jailbreak" thing is the following:

if you holding something back so it will not be patched is fine as long as there are no big changes ahead which perhaps make all exploits useless.

What about the issue that we're in mid january the last 5.x version was 5.1.1 and a new hardware platform (5s, 6 whatever) is around the corner? So i'm assuming we will see 6.1.1 before 7.x is coming out with a new iphone which completely changes the game because of new processor and such.
Remember the 4s had new hardware included and there is no unthethered jailbreak available for a long time. At the same time a jailbreak for 6.x is possible regarding the software only on old hardware.
I don't entirely understand your question, but the next OS or hardware aren't that close at all to release. We have to plan by prior recent years, which means no new hardware or iOS until the Fall.

If we approach late spring/early summer and still have no jailbreak, they might wait until iOS 7 at that point and for the new hardware.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 10:49 AM   #273
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mamema: As I understand it, the exploit they are holding back is one which allows them to examine the kernel to search for more exploitable bugs. Sure, it could be used to patch the kernel and give us a jailbreak...but it is much more valuable as a tool for finding other exploits. The fact that there is new hardware on the horizon is precisely the reason to hold on to this exploit - if they burn it now it might take even longer to create a jailbreak for the new hardware.

Of course they run the risk of its being patched by Apple. But they have to make a judgment call about which course is most likely to help the most people. And I trust the Dev Team far more to make a decision like that than I would you or me. They've shown that they can make the hard but right decision even when people are clamoring in the past. They've earned the benefit of my doubt.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 11:13 AM   #274
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 02:26 PM   #275
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Props to thelatinist for your patience. If I ever make a jailbreak you get first dibs. You'll know its me cause I'll name it something obvious and unoriginal like Y3ll0wF3vEr.dmg.
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