MKV vs MP4 containers

[spacepower7]

Originally Posted by Sparky9292

Well put, but I really wish release groups would put add 2ch AAC track to the MKV so I don't have to transcode one in. Not everyone has a ac3 receiver connected to their ATV2.

More annoying is groups that have mp4 h.264 and 5.1 acc and if you are lucky a separate 2.0 AAC . Why not keep the original ac-3 dd 5.1 and AAC 2.0. It's mostly the PS3 release groups I think.

So are PS3 users more likely to pirate than apple users? I'd say PS3 users are more tech savy and more likely to pirate than Apple users.

Any thoughts?

The only things that I have ever downloaded are not for sale and can't be distributed in my country thanks to the media oligarchs. I'd buy if they were willing to sell their products to me.

[Sparky9292]

Originally Posted by spacepower7

More annoying is groups that have mp4 h.264 and 5.1 acc and if you are lucky a separate 2.0 AAC . Why not keep the original ac-3 dd 5.1 and AAC 2.0. It's mostly the PS3 release groups I think.

So are PS3 users more likely to pirate than apple users? I'd say PS3 users are more tech savy and more likely to pirate than Apple users.

Any thoughts?

Hmmm so PS3's will convert AC3 5.1 into stereo on the fly?

Yeah I mean it doesn't take up much more space to simply include the 2.0 AAC track... christ.... I guess all release groups have kick ass surround sound systems.

[obsidian1200]

Originally Posted by Sparky9292

Hmmm so PS3's will convert AC3 5.1 into stereo on the fly?

Yeah I mean it doesn't take up much more space to simply include the 2.0 AAC track... christ.... I guess all release groups have kick ass surround sound systems.

Well, if you don't like what release groups have to offer, don't download from them :P or just learn how to convert the surround sound track into a 2.0 AAC track and mux it back with the original file.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by Sparky9292

Well put, but I really wish release groups would put add 2ch AAC track to the MKV so I don't have to transcode one in. Not everyone has a ac3 receiver connected to their ATV2.

There are several release groups that release MP4 movie files with 2ch AAC audio tracks. And there is a particular private torrent site that specializes in TV and movie torrents for iPods/iPhones and AppleTVs only.

[Sparky9292]

Originally Posted by Idgit

There are several release groups that release MP4 movie files with 2ch AAC audio tracks. And there is a particular private torrent site that specializes in TV and movie torrents for iPods/iPhones and AppleTVs only.

Whoa whoa whoa... I didn't say I was pirating anything. These are for free: http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/ I just want to watch these on my AppleTV2.

[wildeco]

So in the end, after all your research in your opinion what is the best way to digitize a DVD for the best video and audio?

Originally Posted by bedifferent

I figured

Taking your advice and using Passthru. No reason to encode it, doesn't do anything. I just like the sound of "6-Channel Discrete" versus "Passthru," seems like it's doing something more lol

Now I need to nail down "Deblocking" and "Psychovisual" settings. Noticing some SD DVDs (no animations) have more grain than others (esp in white or black areas). Played around w/ settings on the same DVD. Tried these:

- Deblocking -1,-1:Psy-rd=1.4,0.3
- Deblocking 0,0 (Default):Psych-rd=1.2,0.25
- Deblocking 1,1:Psy-rd=1.2,.020

The differences are very subtle. Main screen is my 50" Pioneer Elite w/ aTV 2 via XBMC, also play on my dual 24" LED LCD's on my Mac Pro (rarely on my iPad, I can remux if so). Assuming Deblocking at 0,0 and tweaking Psychovisual settings for sharpness and grain may be best (or leaving it all alone as it's unnecessary)?

Also, what's your take on Anamorphic? I've been using Loose w/ Modulus=16 as I read this allows for playback on various screen sizes. Yet I've read this crops the image. Anamorphic strict or loose?

[bedifferent]

Originally Posted by wildeco

So in the end, after all your research in your opinion what is the best way to digitize a DVD for the best video and audio?

As the new Handbrake supports DTS sound in m4v containers, m4v is now my goto as it's supported natively in iOS/Apple TV (just make your first track stereo).

Output settings:

MP4 file, Large file size

Video Codec: H.264 (x264)

Framerate (FPS): Same as source

Variable Framerate

Video Quality:
This is subjective, many have differing opinions but as I have a 12-Core Mac Pro I opted for better quality encodes.

- Constant Quality
- RF - 18 (for Blu-Ray) and 20 (for SD)

Picture size:
Output: Same as source

Trick: In Picture Settings Select

Anamorphic: None

Uncheck "Keep Aspect Ratio"

Maximize both Height and Width to the same dimensions as "Source" (ex 1920 x 1080)

Modulus: Select 16 for SD DVD's and 8 for Blu-Ray DVD's

Now select "Loose" for Anamorphic. Done. Now you will have 1920x1080 loose picture settings.

Video Filters: Detelecine - Decomb

Audio Filters:

Track 1:
- Codec: AAC (Core Audio)
- Mixdown: Dolby Pro Logic II
- Samplerate: Auto
- Bitrate: 192

Tracks 2-4:
- Depends, I normally make Track 2 full surround sound, either AC3 Passthru or DTS-HD or DTS Passthru.
Also add audio commentaries.

Advanced:
There's a lot to learn with Encoding, Psychovisual, Analysis, etc. I use very high settings as my Mac can handle it, although some may state it's overkill with little benefit, I disagree. Here is the "Current x264 Advanced Option String:"

b-adapt=2:rc-lookahead=50: psy-rd=1.5,0.10:bframes=8:ref=8:me=umh:subq=10:trellis=2:analyse=all:merange=32:aq-strength=1.2

[kagharaht]

Originally Posted by bedifferent

As the new Handbrake supports DTS sound in m4v containers, m4v is now my goto as it's supported natively in iOS/Apple TV (just make your first track stereo).

Output settings:

MP4 file, Large file size

Video Codec: H.264 (x264)

Framerate (FPS): Same as source

Variable Framerate

Video Quality:
This is subjective, many have differing opinions but as I have a 12-Core Mac Pro I opted for better quality encodes.

- Constant Quality
- RF - 18 (for Blu-Ray) and 20 (for SD)

Picture size:
Output: Same as source

Trick: In Picture Settings Select

Anamorphic: None

Uncheck "Keep Aspect Ratio"

Maximize both Height and Width to the same dimensions as "Source" (ex 1920 x 1080)

Modulus: Select 16 for SD DVD's and 8 for Blu-Ray DVD's

Now select "Loose" for Anamorphic. Done. Now you will have 1920x1080 loose picture settings.

Video Filters: Detelecine - Decomb

Audio Filters:

Track 1:
- Codec: AAC (Core Audio)
- Mixdown: Dolby Pro Logic II
- Samplerate: Auto
- Bitrate: 192

Tracks 2-4:
- Depends, I normally make Track 2 full surround sound, either AC3 Passthru or DTS-HD or DTS Passthru.
Also add audio commentaries.

Advanced:
There's a lot to learn with Encoding, Psychovisual, Analysis, etc. I use very high settings as my Mac can handle it, although some may state it's overkill with little benefit, I disagree. Here is the "Current x264 Advanced Option String:"

What is your home screen TV viewing size? I find that 18 isn't so good at 60". I compared it to 16. It's about as best at it can get at that screen size. Going 15 or lower didn't improve the image, just made the file size large.

[bedifferent]

Originally Posted by kagharaht

What is your home screen TV viewing size? I find that 18 isn't so good at 60". I compared it to 16. It's about as best at it can get at that screen size. Going 15 or lower didn't improve the image, just made the file size large.

60" Pioneer Elite. Tbh I've used 18 for most everything and gone to 16 for some movies. Anything more and you are correct, it simply makes for a longer encode and file. Some suggest 20 for Blu-Ray encodes, but I've noticed a difference bet 20 and 18, it seems 18 is my sweet spot.

Of course this all depends on your system and how much it can handle. I'm currently 20% into handbraking a Blu-Ray rip using 18 with all the presets I listed, and I have about 8 hours left. This is on a 12-Core Mac Pro with 12 GB's RAM. I couldn't imagine encoding on an iMac or such.

[kagharaht]

Originally Posted by bedifferent

60" Pioneer Elite. Tbh I've used 18 for most everything and gone to 16 for some movies. Anything more and you are correct, it simply makes for a longer encode and file. Some suggest 20 for Blu-Ray encodes, but I've noticed a difference bet 20 and 18, it seems 18 is my sweet spot.

Of course this all depends on your system and how much it can handle. I'm currently 20% into handbraking a Blu-Ray rip using 18 with all the presets I listed, and I have about 8 hours left. This is on a 12-Core Mac Pro with 12 GB's RAM. I couldn't imagine encoding on an iMac or such.

Looking forward to your results.

[r270ba]

Why not just take a straight rip using MakeMKV and not use HB to encode at all? Would that not give you the truest 1:1 copy? Granted the files sizes are huge but storage is cheap. I currently have 12TB QNap system so I can fit quite a bit of my BD and DVD rips this way.

If you need something to be iDevice compatible then use HB to convert it to a smaller format using and MP4 container. Heck...for episode rips, I don't even use HB. I just remux the MKV to MP4 and transfer the 1gb (or so) file per episode to my iPad.

Thoughts?

[dynaflash]

Originally Posted by bedifferent

Trick: In Picture Settings Select

Anamorphic: None

Uncheck "Keep Aspect Ratio"

Maximize both Height and Width to the same dimensions as "Source" (ex 1920 x 1080)

Modulus: Select 16 for SD DVD's and 8 for Blu-Ray DVD's

Now select "Loose" for Anamorphic. Done. Now you will have 1920x1080 loose picture settings.

Video Filters: Detelecine - Decomb

I don't even want to get into why this is not the best idea. I understand you do it but please be careful recommending it to those that do not realize what they are doing. And then come to the hb forums looking for help on why their picture is off.

[primus11]

This has been an awesome thread for me.

After much debate, I decided to just do a 1:1 rip of my DVD's and leave them alone on my NAS. No remuxing, no transcoding, no recoding, no encoding, no MP4, no MKV, no M4V, no AAC, no AC3, no DTS.

I can't help but think that it was a mistake to rip my CD's to the lossy MP3 format back in '99 just like it is a mistake to convert DVD & BD to a (more) compressed, lossy format today. I am sure the encoders are swell, but compression is still compression.

Since no one can predict the future, it is impossible to say what sort of codec or container or format I will want or need 5 years from now. Sure it is going to take up more space and sure it is going to be more work if I want to convert these files for playback on a iOS device, but at least I will have an actual backup of the orignal media I paid for and not just a lossy copy.

My .02

[mic j]

Originally Posted by primus11

This has been an awesome thread for me.

After much debate, I decided to just do a 1:1 rip of my DVD's and leave them alone on my NAS. No remuxing, no transcoding, no recoding, no encoding, no MP4, no MKV, no M4V, no AAC, no AC3, no DTS.

I can't help but think that it was a mistake to rip my CD's to the lossy MP3 format back in '99 just like it is a mistake to convert DVD & BD to a (more) compressed, lossy format today. I am sure the encoders are swell, but compression is still compression.

Since no one can predict the future, it is impossible to say what sort of codec or container or format I will want or need 5 years from now. Sure it is going to take up more space and sure it is going to be more work if I want to convert these files for playback on a iOS device, but at least I will have an actual backup of the orignal media I paid for and not just a lossy copy.

My .02

I agree with much of what you said. I am sort of a little of this and a little of that. Probably 95% of my library are 1 time watch movies. Then there is the 5% that are the classics or personal favorites that I tend to rematch. So I keep uncompressed and compressed files of all of them (for the aTV). Once the drive is fills up, I delete just enough of the compressed & uncompressed files in the 95% group, to make room for more media. Slowly, the 5% grows to 100%, then I buy a new drive.

[Blackberryroid]

Originally Posted by spacepower7

mp4 is a container just like mkv, the video inside is mp4 in the mp4 (usually h.264) and every mkv that I see has mp4 (h.264) video inside it.

Mkv can have a variety of video formats inside, but I always see h.264 which is iOS compatible. Therefore I use subler, MKVtools, or iflicks to put the video and audio of the mkv into a mp4 container. It only takes 10 minute on a core2duo 2ghz Mac mini. there is no loss of quality.

What do you mean by container? Is it a folder or something? Why have a container? Can I just take the file without the container? What is the point of a container?

[mic j]

Originally Posted by Blackberryroid

What do you mean by container? Is it a folder or something? Why have a container? Can I just take the file without the container? What is the point of a container?

A container makes a video with multiple tracks (video, audio, subtitle, chapter) appear and act as a single file. So think of it as a way of organizing associated files. In a way, a dvd is also a "container" that holds various folders of movie information. Some media players can play a movie from this dvd folder structure others cannot, e.g. aTV.

[Ddelrio08]

I have over 500 blu ray and dvd titles ripped via MKV on a sinology 15TB server. I use a Linksys EA6500 with matching wireless Linksys bridge for my home theater devices (PS3, Xbox, Wii U, Cable Box, and WD Tv Live Plus box) I now use a WD TV Live Plus box to play all of my 1080P rips.

This is what I can say from EXPERIENCE! I first started using MP4 extensions for my movies and encoded them using the H.264 @ 10,000Kbps and 0.5 bits/pixel and watching my movies (which is the max for this format). The quality was great and the rips played great on my PS3... then along came Cinavia Ecryption.

Instead of trying all the stupid work arounds, I chose to research another way to play the movies. In came the WD TV Live box. It played the MP4's but suffered from stuttering during the film almost as if the connection between (which I knew wasn't the case because the PS3 played them seamlessly!). I tried converting the movies to WMV and playing them on my Xbox using similar high quality settings... the Xbox too suffered from laggy stuttering picture quality.

I then decided to do research and discovered MKV. UNBELIEVABLE QUALITY! I now encode my movies using the MKV extension and 18,000+Kbps @ 0.5 bits/pixel along with AAC 5.1 audio at 448-bits (better than the MP4 quality)! Its AMAZING!!! The movies look even cleaner than the Mp4's on the Playstation. There is a NOTICABLE difference. The picture looks practically identical to the Blu-Ray disc itself when I pop in the actual BDR! Yeah sure the movies are roughly 15Gb's in size on average... but I don't care. I wanted perfect quality regardless of the size.... and I GOT IT! The movies play flawlessly on my WD Box without stutter. I can even play them on my other WD box in my third floor bedroom that is hooked up via powerline ethernet which is slower than the wireless AC connection that my router send out and it still plays FLAWLESSLY! I love MKV!!! Also, I can copy subtitles and have the option to show them or not when I play the movie on my WD box... before I had to either burn it directly onto the Mp4 encoded movie or exclude is altogether.

SO YES... MKV is BETTER! Forget the nay sayers.... I did my fair share of research and MKV is the way to go along with a WD box to play the movie rips directly off of my server or a harddrive attached by USB (if that's your setup). Plus the WD box won't read CINAVIA so you'll never have to worry about the play back problems of encrypted rips!

Compatibility....? Who cares! If what you're looking for is a way to back up your entire collections (like me) and play them from a hard drive, server, HTPC... etc. Then MKV is the way to go for the BEST quality ever (assuming you encode in a high bitrate and high bit/pixel format).

That's my own personal experience... and that's why I choose MKV!

[dynaflash]

Originally Posted by Ddelrio08

Compatibility....? Who cares! If what you're looking for is a way to back up your entire collections (like me) and play them from a hard drive, server, HTPC... etc. Then MKV is the way to go for the BEST quality ever (assuming you encode in a high bitrate and high bit/pixel format).

That's my own personal experience... and that's why I choose MKV!

Huh? MKV or MP4 has *nothing* to do with the quality of the video track. The video track in either container is only as good as the video track encode itself. Typically its now h.264. same video track in both containers will be the same. Period, end of discussion. Though actually since you mention it mkv does have a few issues with variable frame rate from time to time. MKV does have a bit of an edge however supporting subs in various formats. But to say mkv has better video quality than mp4 is frankly ridiculous.

[orpheus1120]

Originally Posted by r270ba

Why not just take a straight rip using MakeMKV and not use HB to encode at all? Would that not give you the truest 1:1 copy? Granted the files sizes are huge but storage is cheap. I currently have 12TB QNap system so I can fit quite a bit of my BD and DVD rips this way.

If you need something to be iDevice compatible then use HB to convert it to a smaller format using and MP4 container. Heck...for episode rips, I don't even use HB. I just remux the MKV to MP4 and transfer the 1gb (or so) file per episode to my iPad.

Thoughts?

In an ideal world where storage & infrastructure are infinite and low cost, that would be the best solution. However that said in the real world, a 12TB storage will only fit around 250 blu rays before you need to add in storage expansion, not forgetting to factor in the storage needed for the additional copy for iOS devices as well. For most enthusiasts whom having blu ray + DVD collections in the hundreds, money is the real issue. So in practice, most people do with just one transcoded version for their casual viewing both on tv and their respective mobile devices, while leaving their blu rays as a hard master copy, and viewing them only when absolute true visual quality is needed.

1gb+ sized files are ok for iPads, but 50gb m4v? Hahaha...

[mic j]

Originally Posted by orpheus1120

In an ideal world where storage & infrastructure are infinite and low cost, that would be the best solution. However that said in the real world, a 12TB storage will only fit around 250 blu rays before you need to add in storage expansion, not forgetting to factor in the storage needed for the additional copy for iOS devices as well. For most enthusiasts whom having blu ray + DVD collections in the hundreds, money is the real issue. So in practice, most people do with just one transcoded version for their casual viewing both on tv and their respective mobile devices, while leaving their blu rays as a hard master copy, and viewing them only when absolute true visual quality is needed.

1gb+ sized files are ok for iPads, but 50gb m4v? Hahaha...

Well stated.