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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:14 PM   #51
fixmymac
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The Real Issue

The 2-year warranty situation in the EU is not as clear as it seems. My understanding is as follows;

1. A fault within year one is assumed to have been present since the item was manufactured. The onus is on Apple to argue/prove? otherwise.

2. A fault appearing after year one is NOT assumed to have been present since the item was manufactured. The onus is on the OWNER to argue/prove? otherwise. It is often the case that local Consumer Protection Laws (Sale of Goods Act etc.) are used to argue the case on behalf of the owner.

It is very clear that the second year of coverage in the EU is quite different to that of the Apple-provided first year of coverage. AppleCare extends the level of coverage provided in year 1 by two extra years.

Given the potentially huge repair costs that come with certain component failures, i personally think AppleCare is worth every penny.

However, it is also clear that Apple need to sell AppleCare very differently. Most people automatically say no to Extended Warranty offers, as they are seen as poor value for money. If Apple explained things clearly to the customers in the EU i think they would sell MORE plans.

Perhaps the real issue is that Apple should show a bit more faith in their design and build quality by offering a 2-year, or maybe even 3-year, warranty as standard.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by fixmymac View Post
1. A fault within year one is assumed to have been present since the item was manufactured. The onus is on Apple to argue/prove? otherwise.

2. A fault appearing after year one is NOT assumed to have been present since the item was manufactured. The onus is on the OWNER to argue/prove? otherwise. It is often the case that local Consumer Protection Laws (Sale of Goods Act etc.) are used to argue the case on behalf of the owner.
6 months each not year
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:20 PM   #53
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Apple's Standard 1 Year Warranty on all products:

Covers any manufacturer defects on iPhone/iPod/iPad/All Mac computers. No accidental damage. No cracked screens. No "jammed in" home buttons. No cracked backing. Even the battery is a grey area on the warranty.

AppleCare+ (Plus): iPhone/iPad/iPod ONLY. No Mac Computers. Extends your warranty by ONE additional year ( 2 years from your purchase date ) and covers (2) two incidents of accidental damage. Cracked screens, cracked anything, water damage, pretty much everything EXCLUDING your iPhone being in several different pieces mangled by a garbage disposal or hacked to pieces with an axe.

Standard AppleCare: iPhone/iPad/iPod; extends your ORIGINAL MANUFACTURERS warranty by (1) one year, to a total of (2) years of coverage from your purchase date. Does not cover any accidental incidents.

AppleCare for iMac/MacBook/etc: Extends your original manufacturers warranty by (2) two years to a total of (3) three years from your purchase date. I.E: Purchased 8/2014, will be covered until 8/2017. No accidental damage. No drops or any of that fun stuff. Just an extension of the original manufacturer warranty.

...well these are the policies for Americans anyway. Not so sure about the terms and conditions for EU.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:25 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Galatian View Post
Oh and please...next time some American thinks he has to be super smart about European economy: may I remind that this all started with the sublim credit crisis in the US. Last time I checked the US is completely broke. No one is going to bail you out...guess with all the FOX news you guys just don't get it yet...well keep bashing Greece...it'll come back at you!
The EU financial crisis has been brewing for decades due to business unfriendly legislation with fewer and fewer of the population paying for more and more of the populace. And no, I don't watch FOX news.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:36 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by fixmymac View Post
The 2-year warranty situation in the EU is not as clear as it seems. My understanding is as follows;

1. A fault within year one is assumed to have been present since the item was manufactured. The onus is on Apple to argue/prove? otherwise.
It's six months, not a year. And the onus is not on Apple, the onus is on the store that sold the item. Buy a Mac at PCWorld, it's PC World's responsibility, not Apple's. Buy a Canon printer at the Apple Store, and it's Apple's responsibility, not Canon's.

In addition, since Apple (and in this example, Canon as well) give you one year manufacturer's warranty, you are free to ask Apple / Canon to fix the problem if you prefer.


Quote:
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The EU financial crisis has been brewing for decades due to business unfriendly legislation with fewer and fewer of the population paying for more and more of the populace. And no, I don't watch FOX news.
Not really business unfriendly. It costs money, obviously, but the customer pays for that. And since the responsibility is on the seller, shops will try to sell goods that are made by a reliable manufacturer.

Last edited by gnasher729; Jan 15, 2013 at 04:42 PM.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:43 PM   #56
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That being said, nobody really has a clue what the EU warranty covers and what it doesn't. The idiots in Brussels dont really care about actually following through with anything unless it makes them money.
Those idiots of the European Union don't write laws. They write regulations and directives which union members should implement as they like (the directive is somewhat the minimum). It's because of Euro-Skeptical nations like the UK there are no such things as European laws concerning product warranties.

----------

Quote:
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The EU financial crisis has been brewing for decades due to business unfriendly legislation with fewer and fewer of the population paying for more and more of the populace. And no, I don't watch FOX news.
Yeah, it's just working out fine for you: Debt Clock.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:58 PM   #57
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The EU financial crisis has been brewing for decades due to business unfriendly legislation with fewer and fewer of the population paying for more and more of the populace. And no, I don't watch FOX news.
Yes, you are right, but at least we do not have to take a credit or a loan if we have to go to a hospital for surgery. Whereas business seems to rule everything in the US...I would say that customer protection seems more effective and promoted in Europe than it is in the US.
Apple are doing good ans solid products but think they are over the laws of any countries. So what difference does it make if they have 1 million dollar fine? All Apple salesman in Europe share your view, and have never heard of this 2 year warranty. They are lying because they are asked to sell Apple Care. However some big retail stores offer this additional year which is in fact compulsory by law. And Samsung clearly "offers" 2 years warranty on their phones and tablets (in fact they do not offer anything, they simply abide to the EU law on consumer goods).
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:01 PM   #58
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I think the EU ruling is actually screwing the customer.

The problem is that the 2years only covers original defects not things that break. If you have a nervous tick, and press the home button a bazillion times, thats not covered. Break the screen, NOPE! Thats probably normal wear and tear and you being a spaz.

Apple care covers the normal wear and tear. I have had Apple replace a phone that stopped where the home button randomly stopped working without any questions because it was under applecare.
Now Apple can tell those in the EU to go to hell. I'm not saying they will, but I think AC gives you a bit more options.
I had the exact sam situation. I was very happy with my purchase of AppleCare.

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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:03 PM   #59
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Either way, in practice, most companies just give you a 2 year warranty no questions asked. Everything is covered except for intentional damage or things like dropping the product on the ground or into water.
Apple is just being a dick about the second year. Like they always do. Whether or not they are following the law doesn't really matter. What this is about is the "spirit of the law". Apple only follows the letter of the law. This seems to be somewhat a difference in mentality between Europe and the US. People in the US are more inclined to follow the letter of the law while in Europe we prefer to side with the spirit. (disclaimer: I can't prove this statement, but it's just a gut feeling).

I've never heard, or experienced, of a company asking you to prove that a defect was already present in the second year. They just replace it and follow the spirit of the law.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:10 PM   #60
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More likely they didn't have to replace it under law, they did it because they wanted to shut you up and get rid of you. Sometimes it's just not worth dealing with folks like you so they bend over and take it. Cost of doing business.
Yeah...no...Sorry I'm not stupid and when I purchase a product that I know comes with a 2 year guarantee/warrantee I'm sure as hell not going to take some crap from some not-fit-for-the-job salesperson.

And this is the whole point off the law suit: I know my right, many persons don't and Apple seems - as it appears to me - to try to save a few pennies by just outright lying to their customers. If this is good for them in the long run?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
So you agree with me that Apple should stop selling Applecare in the EU ?
I have never seen the reason with getting an expended warranty. Granted I had one with my old Dell Laptop and I have actually had to use that one twice because of the graphic card, but if a computer already fails me twice within short periods of time, I know where not to buy again...so yeah. I wouldn't it gone. I have my iPhone insured separately because we don't get Apple Care+ here anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNothing View Post
The EU financial crisis has been brewing for decades due to business unfriendly legislation with fewer and fewer of the population paying for more and more of the populace. And no, I don't watch FOX news.
Granted there has been some major wrongdoing here in Europe. Greece (and other countries) should not have been granted access to the EU to begin with. I'm not saying that because I don't like greek person, but the EU actually made laws and requirements for countries to get into the EU and bend and broke those said laws several times...Germany included.

But, when looking at the Internet, one might suspect that you guys just really don't care that you are completely broke. I don't know I would be worried...Yet funnily all your rating firms still give the US AAA...hypocrite much?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by bassfingers View Post
Oh goodness, how dare apple not tell customers about the 2-year warranty which only covers *ORIGINAL* defects. Therefore covering nothing.

[...]

3. Haven't europeans figured out what happens when they try to give everyone everything? They wind up like Greece. Somebody pays for everything. Whether they agree to it or not
Your last point first: Works fine in Norway, and Norway's not exactly bankrupt...

In Norway the laws say that if you can expect a product to last more than 3 years, then they are covered for 5 (yes, five) years. This of course does not apply to batteries, which are expected to deteriorate. But say a Macbook from 2009 fails to start up tomorrow (and it hasn't been subject to more than normal wear and tear), I could bring that in and then the law says that Apple can choose to either: Repair, upgrade or give me my money back.

Of course, most people don't, as they want new stuff every year. Still, a court order last year decided that mobile phones are covered by 5 year warranty. And you can claim that prices go up because of that. But I'd rather hope that quality goes up...

On top of all this, I've heard very misleading nonsense from Apple store employees about Applecare. But of course it has its place as it covers much more than just normal wear and tear.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:52 PM   #62
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AppleCare + on the iPhone is the first time Apple really had an extended warranty that covered any and all damage to their products. Regular AppleCare might or might not cover damage, depending on what the damage is and who the Genius is that you talk to.

In any case, I never got regular AppleCare as an extended warranty. I got it for three years (with a Mac) of unlimited tech support. I can call them any time about anything, or I can bring my equipment down to a nearby Apple Store. That alone has been worth the price of AppleCare.

Maybe that's what Apple should focus on in Europe: AppleCare isn't an extended warranty; it's a technical support plan.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 06:10 PM   #63
mrmac007
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Apple Care is a bit of a con

In the uk everything electronic comes with a 1 year warranty that's he law here.
There's also this europen law that all white goods should have a 2 year warranty, Apple here say that a computer is not white goods when I asked them.
What I also asked was what about my statutory rights in the uk anything you buy is covered by this and no warranty is alowed to affect this. Statutory rights are all goods should be fit for purpose if you pay £500 for a tv for example the product is expected to last a reasonable amount of time. or 1 year for a £500 fridge that broke down would not be acceptable, you could then say that the goods where not fit for purpose and expect it to be repaired at no cost. If you payed £100 for a fridge then you wouldn't expect it to last as long as a more expensive product.
Apple computers are £849 for the cheapest lap top the MacBook Air you would expect it to last at least 2 years for the price under normal conditions yet if it's 18 months down the road Apple will charge you for the repair when you quote your statutory rights they say you need to speak to our legal department.
£529 for an iPhone if it goes wrong after 12 months through no falt of your own it will cost £170 to repair or replace unless you pay £61 for Apple care in which case your covered, so a premium product is not supposed to last the length of your 24 month contract is it at £529 or more after you've finished paying your contract.
Try it next time you buy anything in the Apple Store in the UK ask about wheather your covered by your statutory rights remember its the law and no warranty is aloud to over ride this.

Last edited by mrmac007; Jan 15, 2013 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Spelling and a couple more points
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 06:58 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by sir1963nz View Post
Problem is, Apples Warranties are the among the shortest around while their profit margin is the highest. So it sound like you are already paying for something that you are not getting.

Longer warranties also make it in the interest of manufacturers to make their products to a higher quality so they don't have failures.

In New Zealand we have "The Consumer Guarantees Act" which has all sorts of implications, one is it must be "durable", i.e. have a reasonable expectation of life, for computers this can be up to 5 years. I had a new motherboard fitted in a MacBook that was 2 1/2 years old for free under a claim. Retailers still try and sell extended warranties here, and some will even blatantly lie and tell you the CGA is the same as the warranty.
Agree about everything in this post. Especially when Apple has the highest profits margins in the industry, and talk about their quality, one would expect them to at least offer 2 year standard warranty.

I've always felt it a bit of ripoff to always pay so much for an Apple product, but to only get 1 year warranty.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:10 PM   #65
blahblah100
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Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

You would be very wrong. Apple makes little to no money on Apple Care, training etc.
Source?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:18 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Erwin-Br View Post
I think AppleCare is even more profitable than the device they're selling it for, so... No.
This ... they're selling insurance, it's an extremely profitable item.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:41 PM   #67
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Ignorance is a bliss...

Apple care is useless in Europe, unless they account for accidents, and I don't think they do? I.e. the laptop I'm typing on is almost three years old. It already got it's hardisk replaced last year. And it's going in for a battery change next week, as it's only had 700 recharges and it's getting a rather dull battery performance... No questions asked. Apple replace the parts...

Selling Apple care for european customers are highly unethical business practice. But probably very tempting from an economic standpoint...
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:04 PM   #68
Mr. Retrofire
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And some MacRumors (MR) users say, MR does not publish Apple critical articles.

Ha, ha, ha. Such an uninformed bunch of liars.

If they cannot read, is that a problem of MR? iThink, not. And btw, MR has enough Apple critical forums. Is that not enough?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:24 PM   #69
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In New Zealand we have "The Consumer Guarantees Act" which has all sorts of implications, one is it must be "durable", i.e. have a reasonable expectation of life, for computers this can be up to 5 years. I had a new motherboard fitted in a MacBook that was 2 1/2 years old for free under a claim. Retailers still try and sell extended warranties here, and some will even blatantly lie and tell you the CGA is the same as the warranty.
You're right. The automatic 1 year warranty is worthless in NZ because you're already covered for longer by the CGA. In fact I've always felt like the Applecare they offer in NZ is misleading on Apple's behalf. You can imagine them thinking: "I hope she doesn't know about the CGA..."
It's like selling sand to (hopefully blind) arabs and I'm guessing, getting away with it .
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 11:51 PM   #70
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After six months you have to demonstrate that any failure in your purchase is not due to misuse, excessive wear and tear or other factors. It is not logical to assume that faults that develop must necessarily have been there at the time of purchase. If the court assumes otherwise [...] .
As I said, I'm not a lawyer, and I even didn't read the 1999 directive. However, since my childhood, my experience has been that I don't need to prove anything nor to go to court if a product fails under warranty. Just go to the shop and tell them it failed, and show them the warranty agreement that came with the product. That's enough. No questions. No court.

That's always been my experience, although I admit I tend to buy at shops with good reputation.

Also, as I said, I've used the 2years warranty very little times in my life, because products tend to last longer.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 02:19 AM   #71
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I worked in a apple store for a time, I was specificly instructed to say there was a 1 year warrenty and they could upgrade to 3 years. When we had a customer who complained that it's mandatory to have 2 years warrenty in Belgium my boss had to look up the law and even then was doing her very best to dodge the question.

Its simple people, It's 2 years in Belgium/Europe, if Apple doesn't want to deal with that they shouldn't sell there. All the other computer manufacturers don't seem to have a problem with it.
Also it's far from common knowledge that you have a 2 year warrenty by law. I first heard of it in school during my IT law lesson's. I tell about it to everybody that is looking to buy a computer so they are informed and haven't had a person who knew about that was in IT.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 02:50 AM   #72
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Oh goodness, how dare apple not tell customers about the 2-year warranty which only covers *ORIGINAL* defects. Therefore covering nothing.

After the first year of AppleCare, Apple has no obligation to service a machine. (unless the customer can prove that the computer shipped with said defect)

Apple also has no customer service obligation to supporting machines for customers who do not pay for the support

EDIT: in response to Radio:

several reasons:

1. Somebody has to pay for everything. The 'people' never get anything for free

2. If apple is forced to go beyond the EU regulation for customers, it devalues the AppleCare others purchased

3. Haven't europeans figured out what happens when they try to give everyone everything? They wind up like Greece. Somebody pays for everything. Whether they agree to it or not
I have often overheard Apple store employees and 3rd party resellers push the AppleCare (the ´+´which covers accidental damage is not available in regions I frequent). It's clear that this is a major profit centre for them, and previous Apple retail employees have stated that management looks favourably upon those that manage to sell this to customers.

Although there are plenty of stupid laws, and I tend towards libertarianism,

1. Yes. The EU regulation is meant to protect consumers by forcing companies to honour good engineering practices and not produce crap. Similar to laws regarding food. Else producers would quite happily mix animal dung into your food supply if they have a chance to get away with it.

2. Apple has been proven to mislead customers by implying that they have less rights than they are entitled to, and by trying to sell an extra warranty which covers *little* extra. Lying to customers is typically frowned upon by the legal authorities.

3. Agree. Everyone has to pay, back to point 1. the regulations are to prevent the Corporatocracy that is increasingly onerous. Look at the crap being sold as "food" on the shelves of a typical Walmart. Look at the fines levied against single moms that download a CD from internet (here the lobby groups have won, for now). Look at the Ford Pinto.
Companies already have departments that purposefully design-down equipment to ensure that it just barely meets the 1-2 year warranties (c.f. lightbulb industry, printer industry, washing machine industry). How ****** sick is that?

Yes, regulations are needed, and yes it costs money for companies to implement those regulations, because I don't think it's a smart idea to live in a world where everything is traced back to money, where shorting is legal and where there is no regulation.

Race to the bottom.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 03:54 AM   #73
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Are European consumers generally uninformed misfits? I don't live in Europe and even I know about the 2 year warranty. Just another frivolous suit to line the pockets of lawyers.
The consumers are generally very well aware of their rights. These things are done to prevent companies from misleading consumers.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 03:56 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by mrmac007 View Post
In the uk everything electronic comes with a 1 year warranty that's he law here.
There's also this europen law that all white goods should have a 2 year warranty, Apple here say that a computer is not white goods when I asked them.
What I also asked was what about my statutory rights in the uk anything you buy is covered by this and no warranty is alowed to affect this. Statutory rights are all goods should be fit for purpose if you pay £500 for a tv for example the product is expected to last a reasonable amount of time. or 1 year for a £500 fridge that broke down would not be acceptable, you could then say that the goods where not fit for purpose and expect it to be repaired at no cost. If you payed £100 for a fridge then you wouldn't expect it to last as long as a more expensive product.
Apple computers are £849 for the cheapest lap top the MacBook Air you would expect it to last at least 2 years for the price under normal conditions yet if it's 18 months down the road Apple will charge you for the repair when you quote your statutory rights they say you need to speak to our legal department.
£529 for an iPhone if it goes wrong after 12 months through no falt of your own it will cost £170 to repair or replace unless you pay £61 for Apple care in which case your covered, so a premium product is not supposed to last the length of your 24 month contract is it at £529 or more after you've finished paying your contract.
Try it next time you buy anything in the Apple Store in the UK ask about wheather your covered by your statutory rights remember its the law and no warranty is aloud to over ride this.
There is no statutory warranty. The Sale of Goods Act gives you up to 6 years guarantee (5 in Scotland), which is not the same thing as a warranty. Warranties come primarily from the manufacturer and occasionally from the retailer (in the form of purchased extended warranties) and are in addition to your statutory guarantee. Nonetheless, most goods sold come with a discretionary one year manufacturer warranty at no extra cost. This includes Apple with its one year Applecare warranty.

In practice, the law covers you for the first six months of purchase with regard to defective goods. After that, if the retailer is not willing to repair, refund or replace and the manufacturer refers you back to the retailer for service you have to sue in court. You have up to six years to do that depending upon the expected useful life of your purchase. You are correct in that warranties cannot override or replace your statutory rights, but in practice, they are much more useful in sorting out problems quickly.

To take your example above, if your fridge broke down after a year, the question fit for purpose is not that clear cut if the fridge operated correctly for the first year as it was clearly fit for purpose in its first year. The retailer could argue that you may have had a poorly regulated power supply at home, left the door open while switched on causing the fridge motor to strain leading to failure etc. The onus is on you to demonstrate that you operated the fridge in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

The EU directive 1999/44/EC on the Sale of Goods and Guarantees was only intended to harmonise consumer guarantee laws within the EU by setting a minimum level of protection and consequently fell mostly short of the protection already given by the UK's existing Sale of Goods Act. For that reason, very little of the directive was adopted into UK legislation. It should therefore be ignored by the British and there is no point quoting "EU law on 2 year warranties" at shop assistants as it simply does not exist.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 04:41 AM   #75
k995
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Are European consumers generally uninformed misfits? I don't live in Europe and even I know about the 2 year warranty. Just another frivolous suit to line the pockets of lawyers.
So because users are misinformed or dont know it companies can give out false information or sel the same warranty twice?
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