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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:06 PM   #301
KnightWRX
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Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
My arguments trumped yours. No reason to adjust them in the slightest.
When ? We essentially pointed you to all the competiting offerings on the market, their prices and specifications and showed you how Apple's pricing is pretty much competitive to these with the added value Apple throws in.

I don't seem where you made a counter argument to that. Are you still thinking a 27" TN panel 1920x1080 monitor is equivalent to the 1440p LED IPS ATD with FW, GbE, webcam/speakers and daisy chaining capability ?

Apple's ATD is not priced "stratospherically" compared to its real competition, the IPS/PLS 1440p 27" Monitors out there.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:41 PM   #302
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I suspect the next Apple monitor will be thinner and that's about it. If they make it into a TV, it would need HDMI as well.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:42 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Wardenski View Post
I suspect the next Apple monitor will be thinner and that's about it. If they make it into a TV, it would need HDMI as well.
... and that's difficult to implement because?...
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:45 PM   #304
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I'm new to Apple but I know that Apple likes to make big announcements a few times per year. e.g. March 2013 for new iPads and June 2013 for new Macbooks. Is it likely/probable that the new 27" TBD will be announced outside of these events? Has that happened in the past?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:48 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Does the Dell 27" Ultrasharp come with built-in Thunderbolt cable and built-in MagSafe cable for the MBP/MBA? What about a built in webcam?

Boom....
Nope .. But it has more inputs variety. ATD does not. You don't have Thunderbolt then ATD is practically a $999 paper weight

It has 3 years warranty by default. ATD does not unless you fork another $$ to buy another Mac and stick AppleCare to them.

It has better color gamut and accuracy. ATD panel is just so so.

It has adjustable height hinge, ATD does not.

What? Those are features too. You're just so one sided so ATD is so perfect and trash equally great competitor's features.

In the end it's all even out, yet Dell can still be had for much cheaper. ATD does not.

And funny side is that Dell can be used for any Mac, Thunderbolt or not. ATD does not "just work" unless it has TB.

Last edited by iSayuSay; Jan 15, 2013 at 04:55 PM.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:48 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by joeloco View Post
I'm new to Apple but I know that Apple likes to make big announcements a few times per year. e.g. March 2013 for new iPads and June 2013 for new Macbooks. Is it likely/probable that the new 27" TBD will be announced outside of these events? Has that happened in the past?
The current TBD was announced on July 20th 2011, alongside a Mac Mini refresh. There was no event, they just updated the website.

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/20/...rbolt-display/
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:55 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by iSayuSay View Post
Nope .. But it has more inputs variety. ATD does not. You don't have Thunderbolt then ATD is practically $999 paper weight

It has 3 years warranty by default. ATD does not unless you fork another $$ buy another Mac and stick AppleCare to them.

It has better color gamut and accuracy. ATD panel is so so.

It has adjustable height hinge, ATD does not.

What? Those are features too. You're just so one sided so ATD is so perfect and trash equally great competitor's features.

In the end it's all even out, yet Dell can still be had for much cheaper. ATD does not.

So if you don't want the ATD don't buy it. But having owned Dell monitors, ACD and a 27" iMac, I am saving my money and waiting for the new ATD. No questions about that. Others want to save a few bucks and get the Dell or the cheaper Korean knockoffs.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:17 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
When ? We essentially pointed you to all the competiting offerings on the market, their prices and specifications and showed you how Apple's pricing is pretty much competitive to these with the added value Apple throws in.
You did nothing of the sort.

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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
I don't seem where you made a counter argument to that. Are you still thinking a 27" TN panel 1920x1080 monitor is equivalent to the 1440p LED IPS ATD with FW, GbE, webcam/speakers and daisy chaining capability ?

Apple's ATD is not priced "stratospherically" compared to its real competition, the IPS/PLS 1440p 27" Monitors out there.
It was shown conclusively that apple's pricing on the TB display is in the stratosphere, just like the pricing on most of their other products.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:36 PM   #309
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Seriously guys, stop feeding the trolls.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 06:18 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by ipedro View Post
... and that's difficult to implement because?...
Didn't say it was difficult. I would assume the next one would not include HDMI because the current one does not. Apple TV would be separate product.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 06:59 PM   #311
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So I'm going to just quote everything you've said so far. You haven't even given so much as an argument at all. Everything you've said amounts to "I disagree, so you're wrong," without a single statement as to *why* you think what you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
You sure used a lot of words, unfortunately most of what you wrote is utter nonsense. I think you need to start by examining what the term "margin" actually means. You have no earthly clue what kind of margin apple would have on a 21.5" TB display. The price they are charging for their 27" isn't even in the same stratosphere as competing 27" monitors, so you can throw that argument of yours in the trash. It didn't make any sense whatsoever.

Secondly, where do you get the idea that apple competes on cost? It doesn't. Never has, and likely never will. A 21.5" TB display would still be outrageously expensive, just not as cartoonishly expensive as the 27".

Lastly, apple DID sell a 20 inch cinema display (the predecessor to the TB display). They also sold a 23" and a 30". Forgot that little nugget of information, did we? So much for "apple would never do this or that... blah, blah, blah." Newsflash... they already did do it and nothing is stopping them from doing it again.
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Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
I happen to have a degree in management. Graduated with honors, no less.

Your words are utter nonsense. Absolutely nothing you said was based in fact and every point you made was easily refuted.

P.S. I read no further than the first 2 lines of your latest post. If you are expounding on your debunked points, there's no point in reading another word of drivel.
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Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
You can reply to as many posts as you'd like. It won't change the fact that your contention is utter nonsense. With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Everything you said is completely false. A 21.5" TB display would not be a low margin product. Period. And apple competes in several "low margin", "saturated" markets. Do your homework before you spout off.
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Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
Your argument was not based in fact, was not supported by any evidence, and your "reasoning" is specious at best. You made a declaration you had no business making. You have absolutely no authority to declare what apple will or will not do. Simple as that. It is ludicrous to throw out words like "never" in the technology sector. Such "arguments" aren't even worth discussing.

Furthermore, you have absolutely no idea what apple's profit margin would be on a hypothetical 21.5 TBD. Declaring such a product "low-margin" is nonsense when you have no clue how much such a product would a) cost to build and b) sell for. You dug yourself deeper by making several factually incorrect statements about apple and the markets they do (or do not) compete in.

I'm sorry, but the kindest word I can use to describe your argument is nonsensical. It doesn't warrant further discussion or argument. You simply aren't qualified to make such statements in the first place. You remind me of all of the "business experts" who swore up and down for months that apple would never release an ipad mini. In fact, I bet you *were* one of those people.
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Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
You did nothing of the sort.

It was shown conclusively that apple's pricing on the TB display is in the stratosphere, just like the pricing on most of their other products.
I've actually debunked all of your above posts point-by-point. You make unsubstantiated claims about how I have been refuted, but I don't see a single post by you or anyone else where this happens. Instead, you have repeated refused to post any examples substantiating *your* unfounded claims (such as about competitor prices or the non-existent low margin markets in which Apple allegedly competes).

No one is infallible, but tell me what your qualifications are again. Actually, just tell me what your reasoning is, as to date, you don't seem to have any. You are just refusing to acknowledge any intelligent discourse as it conflicts with your hopes and desires. I hate to break it to you -- your dream monitor is not likely to happen. Go buy yourself a $150 22" on Newegg and be happy.

I think your accumulated post history says it all. You're full of air and I'm done feeding a troll who lacks the comprehension to understand basic microeconomic theory.

Last edited by ybz90; Jan 15, 2013 at 07:13 PM.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:05 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Spungoflex View Post
You did nothing of the sort.



It was shown conclusively that apple's pricing on the TB display is in the stratosphere, just like the pricing on most of their other products.
Sorry, read the last page again, and again, and see why it was all pointed out to you, and that the pricing on the TB display is fair compared to its competition, the Dell Ultrasharp 27", the HP ZR series and others because of its added value.

Until then, stop saying we're wrong while dismissing everything everyone is posting to debunk you.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:06 PM   #313
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Sorry, read the last page again, and again, and see why it was all pointed out to you, and that the pricing on the TB display is fair compared to its competition, the Dell Ultrasharp 27", the HP ZR series and others because of its added value.

Until then, stop saying we're wrong while dismissing everything everyone is posting to debunk you.
Let's stop feeding this troll and just ignore him. He clearly won't listen to reason.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:16 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by djrobsd View Post
Yeah, the Korean knock-offs are coming.. It won't be long though before more mainstream makers like Samsung also have monitors like this. I guess at that point it all boils down to aesthetics, if you're willing to couple your shiny silvery mac hardware with an ugly black knock off monitor, then go for it... You will also not get any docking functions or a build in charger for your laptop. Also these monitors are in very limited supply at the moment.

I view the Thunderbolt display as this value:
Laptop charger - $90 bucks
Docking station w/ ports - $200
Thunderbolt cable built in $40 bucks
Actual monitor value around $669
Can't say I'd agree with the docking station estimate...is it even enough to call that a docking station? More like a few USB ports - moreso like a hub. A decent USB 3.0 hub is what? $70 tops?

85W Magsafes are $79 retail or buy a used Apple one off eBay for $32 (I bought several just to have in different rooms they work OK).

But the rest I agree with you. $1,000 is insane for anything less than a 30" IPS monitor and I even question that price. Right now I am using a 27" Samsung 1920 x 1080 monitor and an HDMI switch to bounce back and forth between my MBP and a PC. Works fine for what I need, although the extra pixels on the TBD or similar would be welcome.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:19 PM   #315
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Can't say I'd agree with the docking station estimate...is it even enough to call that a docking station? More like a few USB ports - moreso like a hub. A decent USB 3.0 hub is what? $70 tops?

85W Magsafes are $79 retail or buy a used Apple one off eBay for $32 (I bought several just to have in different rooms they work OK).

But the rest I agree with you. $1,000 is insane for anything less than a 30" IPS monitor and I even question that price. Right now I am using a 27" Samsung 1920 x 1080 monitor and an HDMI switch to bounce back and forth between my MBP and a PC. Works fine for what I need.
I think the docking stations are really overpriced, but iirc, there are only two, A Matrox and Belkin, and they're priced at around 300-400. In time, I expect them to come down, but that's the nature of the Thunderbolt industry right now.

Also, I want to draw the distinction between a 1080p TN (or even IPS) 27" and a 2560x1440. For a lower resolution 1080p monitor, $1000 would be grossly overpriced, but it's par for the course for the QHD screens from reputable manufacturers. Since 1080p works for you, that's great and frankly, I'm a bit jealous since you're saving more money than I am, but 1080p doesn't cut it for me.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:27 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by ybz90 View Post
You make unsubstantiated claims about how I have been refuted...
You must have me confused with someone else. You made a silly, nonsensical claim that was thoroughly destroyed by multiple posters in this very thread. I didn't make the claim in question... you did. How can you be so confused on such a basic point of fact? It seems you've forgotten what you are arguing about.

Mimicking my attacks against your nonsensical argument won't win you any points, either. It just cements your defeat. You brought your best and were blown out of the water. I, and several others in this thread, rightly called you out and proved you wrong.

You have no clue what apple's margins would be on a 21.5" TB display. You simply don't. You can say you do over and over as many times as you like (which has been your main strategy in this thread)... but you don't have a clue. The truth hurts. Sorry. Apple dictates it's margins and chooses to compete in several "saturated" markets, contrary to yet another silly claim you made that was defeated.

The fact is you have no idea what apple will or will not do. Stop pretending like you know anything about their future plans. Unless you are a senior apple executive, you are completely clueless. You pretend otherwise, but the truth is you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. "Apple will NEVER make (insert product)". Such a ridiculous statement is worthy of ridicule.

You lost. I won. You were wrong. I was right.

Last edited by Spungoflex; Jan 15, 2013 at 07:34 PM.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:27 PM   #317
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I think the docking stations are really overpriced, but iirc, there are only two, A Matrox and Belkin, and they're priced at around 300-400. In time, I expect them to come down, but that's the nature of the Thunderbolt industry right now.

Also, I want to draw the distinction between a 1080p TN (or even IPS) 27" and a 2560x1440. For a lower resolution 1080p monitor, $1000 would be grossly overpriced, but it's par for the course for the QHD screens from reputable manufacturers. Since 1080p works for you, that's great and frankly, I'm a bit jealous since you're saving more money than I am, but 1080p doesn't cut it for me.
You are absolutely correct about TN panels.

I produce music for a living so having more screen real estate is very very welcome. I am typically using lots of windows in my workspace so you can imagine.

I'm not opposed to spending a little more, though, just not 3 or 4 times more for 500 or 600 extra pixels.

Doesn't Henge Docks make a "dock" of sorts? I think those are around 80 bucks. Have you ever tried them or know anyone who has?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:32 PM   #318
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Until then, stop saying we're wrong while dismissing everything everyone is posting to debunk you.
You and your alternate account are "everyone".
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:45 PM   #319
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You must have me confused with someone else. You made a silly, nonsensical claim that was thoroughly destroyed by multiple posters in this very thread. ... You brought your best and were blown out of the water. I, and several others in this thread, rightly called you out and proved you wrong.

You have no clue what apple's margins would be on a 21.5" TB display. You simply don't. You can say you do over and over as many times as you like (which has been your main strategy in this thread)... but you don't have a clue. The truth hurts. Sorry. Apple dictates it's margins and chooses to compete in several "saturated" markets, contrary to yet another silly claim you made that was defeated.
Is this what you imagined me saying to you? See, at first, I thought you were confused, now it's clear you're just a troll. Even this quote is completely false -- not a single person has called me out, but everyone is calling you out. But like I said, I'm done feeding the troll. I'll let you stay in la-la-land where you clearly belong.

P.S. It's poor etiquette to thumbs up your own posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handsome Bacon View Post
You are absolutely correct about TN panels.

I produce music for a living so having more screen real estate is very very welcome. I am typically using lots of windows in my workspace so you can imagine.

I'm not opposed to spending a little more, though, just not 3 or 4 times more for 500 or 600 extra pixels.

Doesn't Henge Docks make a "dock" of sorts? I think those are around 80 bucks. Have you ever tried them or know anyone who has?
I've not heard of them, thanks for pointing them out. I really wish there were more TB peripherals available, it's too early to tell but it's starting to have the same feel as Firewire.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 07:53 PM   #320
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Is this what you imagined me saying to you? See, at first, I thought you were confused, now it's clear you're just a troll.
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Originally Posted by ybz90 View Post
That said, the reasons I gave above are why Apple will never release a 20" or similar screen. Apple has no interest in entering saturated and low-margin markets.
Got you yet again. This is just too easy.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 08:06 PM   #321
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Got you yet again. This is just too easy.
Huh? What does that have to do with my post at all? (Nice job upranking your own post again). Here's your homework for the evening -- go back and reread everything we both posted. Maybe you'll learn something. I'll put it this way, and this is something you should know if you are a business management major as you allege to be. I don't have to be a senior exec at Apple to make an educated estimate their margins or business decisions. Margins and revenue analysis is incredibly easy to do, and as an analyst and consultant, it is in fact my job to inform said execs on what or what not to do. The numbers, determined easily from a teardown/BOM and market analysis, say this project would be very low-impact with high relative opportunity cost in manufacture set-up and R&D detraction, and I'm sure Apple's own numbers guys recommend against it as well. What I have posted is my well-reasoned professional opinion on the matter. What you have posted is rubbish. We are done here, kiddo.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 08:26 PM   #322
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Looking forward to the new one. USB 3.0 and thinner design sounds good
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 09:41 PM   #323
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When ? We essentially pointed you to all the competiting offerings on the market, their prices and specifications and showed you how Apple's pricing is pretty much competitive to these with the added value Apple throws in.

I don't seem where you made a counter argument to that. Are you still thinking a 27" TN panel 1920x1080 monitor is equivalent to the 1440p LED IPS ATD with FW, GbE, webcam/speakers and daisy chaining capability ?

Apple's ATD is not priced "stratospherically" compared to its real competition, the IPS/PLS 1440p 27" Monitors out there.
Maybe .. for some, ATD might not be too overpriced. But you see, Apple still shamelessly offer LED Cinema Display, yep .. still for arse-kicking $999 tag. No Thunderbolt, just pure USB docking with fancy MagSafe.

ATD can be a great monitor for $999 ... You know how? By simply add one HDMI input and 3.5mm combo jack output. Not everyone feel content with the puny built-in speaker. That way it can also be used for virtually ANY computer, Thunderbolt or not.
Like I said in my previous post, unless you have Thunderbolt product, ATD is basically paperweight. Shame ..
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 09:45 PM   #324
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I wouldn't buy an apple monitor again for color critical photography work. My 24 inch pales in comparison to my friend's Eizo and simlarly priced NECs. While they may cost more, their panels focus more on what's important.

Moreover, of all the high end print shops I frequent I rarely see anyone doing color critical on Mac monitors anymore.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:14 PM   #325
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Thunderbolt is external PCIe in the sense you are discussing. The connection itself uses PCIe, and it's possible to hook up PCIe devices through a chassis (ViDock is already working on this). The issue is really that getting high speeds over long runs is tough. Especially with something as electrically complicated as PCIe. RF crosstalk and interference starts to play hell with your signals. To reach the full potential of an external PCIe bus, optical cabling is your best bet.

Right now, with the copper cabling, Thunderbolt will be the bottleneck on current generation GPU cards. Which is a problem to be overcome. On paper, the optical cabling can enable 100Gbit over Thunderbolt, but that could take years.

As for drivers, that just needs a "standard" for exposing PCIe chassis boxes over Thunderbolt. Much like USB Mass Storage makes driverless USB hard drives possible. Perhaps Thunderbolt already has that, but I am not 100% sure. Might need something in order to handle hot-swapping which you don't normally deal with when working with PCIe cards.
Well, it IS, technically, but it also isn't. It doesn't have native speeds or perfect 1:1 interfacing with the OS (i.e., the PC is aware it's a thunderbolt device, as opposed to believing it's an internal PCI-E device, important for compatibility with ALL PCI-E devices).

There should be no need for special drivers, it should just work as a PCI-E device, and it should have full native speeds.

Perhaps thunderbolt will get to that point too! Which would be particularly awesome.
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