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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:13 PM   #26
RedCroissant
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Originally Posted by Xgm541 View Post
I returned the macbook, its not my fault they took it back.

Its the salesrep's fault. And the fact that he was working there is his manager's fault. The fact that the manager was working there that lead him to hire the guy who accepted my macbook is the fault of someone in corporate. In the end it's apple's fault for being irresponsible enough to hire people who check what customers return.

If we want to play the blame game and all.
HA HA! I'm sure apple would agree with you completely. After all, you're just the innocent bystander who had no control over the situation that went into the store to return an item that was damaged and expected to be charged for it, right? L..O....L.

Since it's someone else's fault, would you mind very much posting when you returned it and to which store?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:22 PM   #27
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But once they find out, you will have ruined the return policy for everyone, including you.
Oh come on. Cry me a river. You really think this is the first, only and last time this has ever happened? For Apple it is like water off the back of a duck. This won't cut into their margins at all.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:30 PM   #28
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HA HA! I'm sure apple would agree with you completely. After all, you're just the innocent bystander who had no control over the situation that went into the store to return an item that was damaged and expected to be charged for it, right? L..O....L.

Since it's someone else's fault, would you mind very much posting when you returned it and to which store?
Yes, it was returned around May 2011 to the Greenwich, CT store.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:37 PM   #29
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Yes, it was returned around May 2011 to the Greenwich, CT store.
Man! I was hoping it was more recent than that. The thing is....you don't really have a history of being honest. Nice though if that's the truth.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 10:49 PM   #30
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Man! I was hoping it was more recent than that. The thing is....you don't really have a history of being honest. Nice though if that's the truth.
It is true. It was the 2010 11 inch base model. I later ordered one with 4GB ram. If my history of being honest/dishonest is based on my return of the MacBook, then think of this: A man tells 100 truths and 1 lie. Is he a liar or is he honest? He can't be both as they contradict each other, therefore he must be one or the other, which is he?

On a late Spring afternoon, my room mates in my apartment at college were having a get together. My end term project that semester was to make an Xcode project and I purchased the MBA just to run Xcode. The beer was next to my air, which I thought was safe as I dont generally spill beer on my electronics. But alas, someone bumped into the table and the beer spilled onto my computer. With a project due in two weeks, a beer soaked laptop, and somebody who is surely not going to refund me my $1000, I went to the apple store hoping for the best. The computer was fully functional, turned on, keyboard worked although two or three keys were sticky and it smelled of beer, at least i thought it did. It was inspected by the sales rep who accepted the return.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 11:17 PM   #31
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It is true. It was the 2010 11 inch base model. I later ordered one with 4GB ram. If my history of being honest/dishonest is based on my return of the MacBook, then think of this: A man tells 100 truths and 1 lie. Is he a liar or is he honest? He can't be both as they contradict each other, therefore he must be one or the other, which is he?

On a late Spring afternoon, my room mates in my apartment at college were having a get together. My end term project that semester was to make an Xcode project and I purchased the MBA just to run Xcode. The beer was next to my air, which I thought was safe as I dont generally spill beer on my electronics. But alas, someone bumped into the table and the beer spilled onto my computer. With a project due in two weeks, a beer soaked laptop, and somebody who is surely not going to refund me my $1000, I went to the apple store hoping for the best. The computer was fully functional, turned on, keyboard worked although two or three keys were sticky and it smelled of beer, at least i thought it did. It was inspected by the sales rep who accepted the return.
Actually, he is both. The determination of whether someone can be considered a liar or not is not established by the sum of either the number of truths told or the number of lies told. You could tell 101 truths and 100 lies and that would still make you a liar(at least for those 100 times). So yes, that one lie would make the person a liar and there is no contradiction. The ends do not justify the means(at least not immediately). True justification of the ends by the means is only achieved in retrospect by those that did not participate in the action.

I can understand how stressful it must have been especially given that a major project was due, but that does not excuse the action; and most certainly does not justify it. It worked out for you and you still have the nice laptop that you got away with, but you did steal it. It's too bad there isn't much of an avenue to report past fraudulent returns.

And here's another question for you: Would you be willing to call Apple(either the store where you returned your damaged one or AppleCare) to tell them what happened?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 11:43 PM   #32
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Actually, he is both. The determination of whether someone can be considered a liar or not is not established by the sum of either the number of truths told or the number of lies told. You could tell 101 truths and 100 lies and that would still make you a liar(at least for those 100 times). So yes, that one lie would make the person a liar and there is no contradiction. The ends do not justify the means(at least not immediately). True justification of the ends by the means is only achieved in retrospect by those that did not participate in the action.

I can understand how stressful it must have been especially given that a major project was due, but that does not excuse the action; and most certainly does not justify it. It worked out for you and you still have the nice laptop that you got away with, but you did steal it. It's too bad there isn't much of an avenue to report past fraudulent returns.

And here's another question for you: Would you be willing to call Apple(either the store where you returned your damaged one or AppleCare) to tell them what happened?
But you do not know my history of truth telling or lying. You know about once incident where I was dishonest. Perhaps I did 100 honest things and this one dishonest thing. Don't you think its a bit unfair for you to say that I have a history of being dishonest if I have been dishonest once and honest 100 times? Colloquially it does not make sense, at least to me, to be a truth teller and a liar at the same time, but I do agree you technically could be both.

Arguably every human being has committed a dishonest act either by lying or failing to include information -- any means really. This does not mean that I do not trust that the police officer is telling the truth when she says I should not go down this road because it is dangerous.

To answer your question: No I would not call applecare or go back to the store and let them know what happened. Perhaps if I wasn't still attending school and had the means to pay back, I would, but as it stands, I cannot.

The return was handled by the sales rep and all rules were followed. No where on the apple site does it mention that the product mustn't smell of alcohol upon return. It also does not say the product even has to be working, although I'm sure that would not hold up in court. (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/open/salespolicies). The rep checked the computer and it was acceptable according to him. The computer turned on, worked fine, two or three keys on the keyboard were "sticky" (same if i had eaten candy and started to type). Honestly, now that I think of it, I'm not all too sure how much beer ended up on the thing, and maybe only the keyboard was slightly wet.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 12:11 AM   #33
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But you do not know my history of truth telling or lying. You know about once incident where I was dishonest. Perhaps I did 100 honest things and this one dishonest thing. Don't you think its a bit unfair for you to say that I have a history of being dishonest if I have been dishonest once and honest 100 times? Colloquially it does not make sense, at least to me, to be a truth teller and a liar at the same time, but I do agree you technically could be both.

Arguably every human being has committed a dishonest act either by lying or failing to include information -- any means really. This does not mean that I do not trust that the police officer is telling the truth when she says I should not go down this road because it is dangerous.

To answer your question: No I would not call applecare or go back to the store and let them know what happened. Perhaps if I wasn't still attending school and had the means to pay back, I would, but as it stands, I cannot.

The return was handled by the sales rep and all rules were followed. No where on the apple site does it mention that the product mustn't smell of alcohol upon return. It also does not say the product even has to be working, although I'm sure that would not hold up in court. (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/open/salespolicies). The rep checked the computer and it was acceptable according to him. The computer turned on, worked fine, two or three keys on the keyboard were "sticky" (same if i had eaten candy and started to type). Honestly, now that I think of it, I'm not all too sure how much beer ended up on the thing, and maybe only the keyboard was slightly wet.
Your history isn't relevant because the only action in question which I completely disagree with is the one where you blatantly stated that you retuned a computer that you knew was damaged. The number of truths that you've told in your life really doesn't matter because it has no bearing on this situation. The only way your history would be relevant would be in evaluating the reason you chose to commit this wrong action in the light of a quite possible incredibly honest past. In that light, a single wrong action done purposefully that is out of the ordinary makes that action worse.

And the everyday actions of other people also has no bearing because those examples are only used to justify an improper action when their actions are not applicable to your situation.

But I don't want to continue a debate that leads to moral equivalency statements and theory since I do that pretty often anyway in school. And no, I wouldn't expect that you would contact them and tell them what happened because you and I both know that you would be charged for your computer; and rightfully so.

The important thing is to realize that justifying your actions with a strange sense of entitlement and claiming no responsibility is completely ridiculous and false. Stating to the rep that a drink was spilled on it would have led to opening the case in the back and denial of your return. And you're right that the return policy says nothing about the product having to be in working condition, but the condition of the item being returned is implied(at least in my opinion).

People on this forum(including me) would have not been so judgmental had you either not stated how you got away with getting a new MBA when you knew yours was damaged, or simply acknowledged the way in which you received it was improper and that was that. It doesn't change the nature of the action being wrong, but it would certainly limit the amount of attention one of your posts receives.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 12:25 AM   #34
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This thread makes me want to gouge my eyes out.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 10:31 AM   #35
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Do you really expect someone that is obviously happy about getting away with what is essentially theft to suddenly reconsider their position?
Of course not. But does that mean we should say nothing about his behavior? It's bad enough that this forum member does this kind of thing. Add to that the fact that he/she is so unethical that he/she doesn't have the least qualms about posting proudly about that behavior. THEN add to that defending that bad behavior when called on it. This person is so disconnected from an understanding of what ethical behavior is that they really don't even understand why you are questioning them, and then others (like you) point the finger at the person WHO POINTS OUT THE BAD BEHAVIOR. Do you see how screwed up that is?

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Originally Posted by Xgm541 View Post
I returned the macbook, its not my fault they took it back.

Its the salesrep's fault. And the fact that he was working there is his manager's fault. The fact that the manager was working there that lead him to hire the guy who accepted my macbook is the fault of someone in corporate. In the end it's apple's fault for being irresponsible enough to hire people who check what customers return.

If we want to play the blame game and all.
You lack of sense of right and wrong is shocking, and really disappointing. I feel bad for those who will have to intersect with you in life.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 10:40 AM   #36
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I am really loving the ethical and right doing people ready to criticize someone for something they did over an online forum. As I am sure none of you have done anything unethical in your lives, I certainly hope you have careers where you have the power to make the world a better place -- we need great, law abiding, never bending, people such as yourselves! Oh if only that were true..

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I feel bad for those who will have to intersect with you in life.
I think you mean interact not intersect.. anyway, you don't know who I am, where I am from, what I do, so to say I don't know right from wrong is blind. Do I think I did something wrong? Yes. Do I think Apple, the multibillion dollar corporation can stomach the cost of the MBA, yes. Are they still likely to make a profit off the damaged product? Yes. Do I often buy their products? Yes. Do I feel bad about returning the MBA? No.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 11:18 AM   #37
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No one is saying they have never done anything wrong, however, they're holding you accountable for saying in an open forum that you did it and with no remorse (it's not my fault, they took it back, they won't miss the money, etc). I would expect the same if someone came on here and said, "I steal from xxxx and..." If you had said, "Yes, my bad. I shouldn't have done it." This thread would have died, or at least stayed on topic (Monster!!).

In the military, we have a term for this. It's called quibbling. If I tell you the standard (don't steal, commit fraud, etc), and then I find you short (stealing, lying/obscuring facts for personal gain), then the BS answer you pop off with is called quibbling. Most would find this emotional and ethical indicators of weakness. The admirable are not those who never fail or fall short, but rather, those who fall short, recognize their faults, and then take solid action to remedy them.

I'd say, simply, your remedy is to just admit it's wrong, there's really no excuse, and you'll try to not do it again. I doubt there's much more you could do if you wanted, such as repay Apple for providing a free computer after the terms of warranty were not respected, as every manufacturer has a clause exempting abuse.

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Old Jan 16, 2013, 11:21 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Xgm541 View Post
I am really loving the ethical and right doing people ready to criticize someone for something they did over an online forum. As I am sure none of you have done anything unethical in your lives, I certainly hope you have careers where you have the power to make the world a better place -- we need great, law abiding, never bending, people such as yourselves! Oh if only that were true..



I think you mean interact not intersect.. anyway, you don't know who I am, where I am from, what I do, so to say I don't know right from wrong is blind. Do I think I did something wrong? Yes. Do I think Apple, the multibillion dollar corporation can stomach the cost of the MBA, yes. Are they still likely to make a profit off the damaged product? Yes. Do I often buy their products? Yes. Do I feel bad about returning the MBA? No.
No, I meant intersect.

My issue with you is the pride you find in telling us about your misdeeds. You don't seem to even understand it was wrong, let alone feel ashamed enough about your behavior to keep quiet about it.

Whatever. You will have to live with yourself. In my experience people like you tend to end up with other people like you, and that is punishment enough.

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No one is saying they have never done anything wrong, however, they're holding you accountable for saying in an open forum they did it with no remorse (it's not my fault, they took it back, they won't miss the money, etc). I would expect the same if someone came on here and said, "I steal from xxxx and..." If you had said, "Yes, my bad. I shouldn't have done it." This thread would have died, or at least stayed on topic (Monster!!).

In the military, we have a term for this. It's called quibbling. If I tell you the standard (don't steal, commit fraud, etc), and then I find you short (stealing, lying/obscuring facts for personal gain), then the BS answer you pop off with is called quibbling. Most would find this emotionally and ethically indicators of weakness. The admirable are not those who never fail or fall short, but rather, those who fall short, recognize their faults, and then take solid action to remedy them.

I'd say, simply, your remedy is to just admit it's wrong, there's really no excuse, and you'll try to not do it again. I doubt there's much more you could do if you wanted, such as repay Apple for providing a free computer after the terms of warranty were not respected, as every manufacturer has a clause exempting abuse.
Way better said than my posts...
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 11:37 AM   #39
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But once they find out, you will have ruined the return policy for everyone, including you.
And in a way, you're right as this is what has happened with cell phones. There are multiple moisture indicators inside cell phones, and when you return a cell phone it's one of the first things they check. THere is typically one by the battery, which is easy to check. Then, if you complain that it's inaccurate, there is often an ability for the technician to pop the external cover and then check one on the main circuit board. This one shows moisture (color change of the dot) then you're out of luck.

If this happens often enough, MBA/MBP warranties could start to be delayed as they check moisture indicators.

I was a Technical Services Director for a manufacturer for about 5 years, and this fell under my domain. If your product was borderline and we had a good business/distributor relationship, I'd let the warranty kick in. Feed me a story and have a huge arc across the circuit board from a lightning strike (not covered), then no warranty, and your next return will be more carefully inspected.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 11:53 AM   #40
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And in a way, you're right as this is what has happened with cell phones. There are multiple moisture indicators inside cell phones, and when you return a cell phone it's one of the first things they check. THere is typically one by the battery, which is easy to check. Then, if you complain that it's inaccurate, there is often an ability for the technician to pop the external cover and then check one on the main circuit board. This one shows moisture (color change of the dot) then you're out of luck.

If this happens often enough, MBA/MBP warranties could start to be delayed as they check moisture indicators.

I was a Technical Services Director for a manufacturer for about 5 years, and this fell under my domain. If your product was borderline and we had a good business/distributor relationship, I'd let the warranty kick in. Feed me a story and have a huge arc across the circuit board from a lightning strike (not covered), then no warranty, and your next return will be more carefully inspected.
Exactly. I have returned many items to Apple recently and I always made sure that none of the items were thrown away including the plastic sheets that came with it and the plastic cover over the magsafe adaptor pin.

But out of curiosity, regarding cell phones. I have been asked over the phone by tech support "what color is the plastic sticker inside the battery?" Which is probably the water damage indicator.

So does it have to come in contact with water for it to change color? I ask because I am wondering what happens when people live in a high humidity area and wont water vapor eventually get to those indicators?
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 12:26 PM   #41
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snipped...Which is probably the water damage indicator.

So does it have to come in contact with water for it to change color? I ask because I am wondering what happens when people live in a high humidity area and wont water vapor eventually get to those indicators?
Yes, the sticker you're refferring to is likely it. It's usually about the diameter of a pencil eraser, and any where inside the battery compartment. Every manufacturer will be different.

Depending on the sticker's chemistry, the dot can go from clear to pink or red, or in some cases a purple. Theoretically, high sweat levels and the moisture from it, can turn it, but it's gotta be really heavy. Again, one could make the case that putting a highly sophisticated electronics device through that environment could "technically" approach the "abuse" category. Apple didn't intend for you to jam out with a Nano in a 108 F sauna jamming to Nickleback (which audio fans would argue is abuse too).

Here's some info on moisture indicators, and scroll down to, "Coloured saturation indicators."
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 12:53 PM   #42
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Of course not. But does that mean we should say nothing about his behavior? It's bad enough that this forum member does this kind of thing. Add to that the fact that he/she is so unethical that he/she doesn't have the least qualms about posting proudly about that behavior. THEN add to that defending that bad behavior when called on it. This person is so disconnected from an understanding of what ethical behavior is that they really don't even understand why you are questioning them, and then others (like you) point the finger at the person WHO POINTS OUT THE BAD BEHAVIOR. Do you see how screwed up that is?[COLOR="#808080"]
Did you read my other posts that were written to Xgm541 and those in direct response to him? I didn't say that commenting on someone's bad behavior was useless, just pointing out that a person who was willing to post what they did in a public forum probably doesn't care.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 01:04 PM   #43
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Did you read my other posts that were written to Xgm541 and those in direct response to him? I didn't say that commenting on someone's bad behavior was useless, just pointing out that a person who was willing to post what they did in a public forum probably doesn't care.
Yes - read them, but only after I responded to your earlier post. My comments were targeted more at the entire thread, not you specific post.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 01:05 PM   #44
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No one is saying they have never done anything wrong, however, they're holding you accountable for saying in an open forum that you did it and with no remorse (it's not my fault, they took it back, they won't miss the money, etc). I would expect the same if someone came on here and said, "I steal from xxxx and..." If you had said, "Yes, my bad. I shouldn't have done it." This thread would have died, or at least stayed on topic (Monster!!).

In the military, we have a term for this. It's called quibbling. If I tell you the standard (don't steal, commit fraud, etc), and then I find you short (stealing, lying/obscuring facts for personal gain), then the BS answer you pop off with is called quibbling. Most would find this emotional and ethical indicators of weakness. The admirable are not those who never fail or fall short, but rather, those who fall short, recognize their faults, and then take solid action to remedy them.

I'd say, simply, your remedy is to just admit it's wrong, there's really no excuse, and you'll try to not do it again. I doubt there's much more you could do if you wanted, such as repay Apple for providing a free computer after the terms of warranty were not respected, as every manufacturer has a clause exempting abuse.
We don't live in a perfect world where everybody follows rules accordingly. People will bend rules all the time to their advantage. You mention the military. Please don't tell me that you think the US military doesn't bend rules to their advantage.

What you're saying is that for me to be admirable, I have to take action to remedy whatever wrong I did. Now, if I come here and say that the MBA had beer in it and I returned it and felt sorry about it, i'd be telling a lie. I'd rather be morally incorrect in your eyes than be dishonest with myself because at the end of the day, I feel my action was the best one I could have taken given the situation.

And no I was did not post my deed to show off what I did, I felt that many of the browsers of the forum would identify with the story as i'm sure many of you have had incidences at college where something really stupid happened. But I was wrong, my honesty on this forum drew in a crowd of morality preachers.

Here is an article about the beloved corporation who bends rules to their advantage.

http://mashable.com/2012/04/29/apple-avoids-taxes/
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 01:42 PM   #45
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[MOD NOTE]
Lets keep things civil.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 01:48 PM   #46
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Lets do the ethical thing and make the mod's life easier. Not willing to reply to this thread any longer, if you want to discuss further please PM me.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 01:48 PM   #47
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Okay

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[MOD NOTE]
Lets keep things civil.
Okay, you mean by not openly bragging about committing unethical acts?
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:16 AM   #48
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I sense a distinct inability to relate to fables read during early preschool. My quibbling comment also appears to have missed the mark.

It's cool. It's because of incidents like this I have to attend mandatory ethics training, mandatory sexual harassment training, and a slew of other classes intending to reinforce the points that these are NOT acceptable, even if. "You feel fine," "my mom does it," and a whole litany of other slippery slope explanations.


We can also thank this for leading to Sarbanes/Oxley which touches everyone in IT whether they know it or not. Which brings me to the next to last point, even if its small to you, it does affect others.

Hopefully the mods see this as constructive. You can't expect everyone to be perfect every time, but you lead by example. As a result of slaughters in Vietnam, West Point (no I didn't go there) amended (bolded) their core values motto to:

I will not lie, steal or cheat; nor tolerate those who do.

And, with that ill return you to your normally scheduled show, "the Kardashians," where as long as you think it's ok, it must be.

Last edited by JohnnyComeLatly; Jan 17, 2013 at 08:45 AM.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:41 AM   #49
ybz90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xgm541 View Post
Sugar is the most horrible thing you can get into a computer, especially into the keyboard.

I once spilled beer onto my MBA, the keyboard became really sticky (beer has sugar??!?). Luckily I was within 14 days of the return period so I returned it. The sales rep did not smell the strong odor of alcohol.
Let's be honest. No one can convince you if you don't think so, but this is wrong. You got away with it, so congratulations, but this is totally unethical and despicable in my opinion, and I imagine you know it to be so. If it doesn't bother your conscience at all, then again, good for you, no harm, no foul, except to Apple. I for one do have a different sense of morality than you do and would not be okay with doing that, but alas, we are different people; lacking a universal definition [ie bound by the physical laws of the universe / god(s)] of what is right and wrong, I won't tell you yours is wrong, but I personally think so. I would hate to have you as a customer though.

And yes, beer obviously has sugar. Virtually everything organic has some form of sugar, whose monomers are necessary for all manner of cellular respiration (fermentation is an example, resulting in ethyl alcohol, which is the kind you drink -- not to be mistaken for isopropyl!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttveldman View Post
When I was driving to work, and parked my car, i've noticed a can of monster energy leaked and some got onto my MBA.
First i I thought it was okay because nothing got insided and everything was working well. But after 10 minutes on the right side of the screen about 15% of the total screen was covered in grey and stripes. After that point i shutted it down and made it a bit dry again and reversed it, into a '' A'' position. What can I do, except by not turning it on for 1/2 days.
If you have the savvy, take it apart and clean it up yourself. Leaving it to "dry" as others have mentioned, won't do anything about the residue. From what you describe, however, I don't think the system is necessarily a goner. In all likelihood, your display is fine but the logic board got a bit messed up, but it's not unheard of for these problems to resolve once they're cleaned up since the system didn't freeze or crash, just develop graphical issues. Or, it could even maybe just be the connector or the area around there. Worst case scenario, I think you're looking at a logic board replacement, but it's not the worst thing honestly and certainly doable.

I would definitely disassemble and thoroughly clean though. If you can't do it, find a friend or someone you know who has the skills to do so.

Last edited by ybz90; Jan 17, 2013 at 08:47 AM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:52 PM   #50
ttveldman
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Woop!!! i left my laptop in a ''a'' form for three days in my room ( which is about 25 temperature, i live in curaçao ) and my whole screen is 100%!! the sugars are gone i guess, but i still smell the monster in it, but i dont care that!
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