Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:46 AM   #76
Lord Blackadder
macrumors G4
 
Lord Blackadder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sod off
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
What constitutes "dangerous"? Convicted felons are already barred from buying a gun, so who are they aiming at here? Ambiguity is not a good thing when it comes to potentially stripping citizens of their rights.
Check this list. It is not ambiguous, and Obama's order will result in a review of this list to see if it requires revision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
I almost didn't mention this because this has ZERO chance of making it through Congress, but I suppose it does deserve some discussion. I get that in the aftermath of the shooting in Connecticut everyone's first gut reaction is to just ban everything. It's human nature I guess, but that doesn't make it right. Punishing law abiding citizens who own these types of weapons (which honestly is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 99% of the people who legally own an assault rifle) because of the actions of a couple of people is just wrong no matter which way you slice it. But even if you look back at the 1994 assault weapons ban you'll see that the ban "failed to reduce the average number of victims per gun murder incident or multiple gunshot wound victims" (Source)
I disagree with some of the features of the assault weapons ban. I think a more common-sense approach is to simply include capacity limits for all semiautomatic weapons with detachable magazines, rather than trying to list "scary" features and ban them. I don't think Americans have much to fear from bayonets, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
At first glance, I'm fine with this. But if they are going to close the gun show loophole this is really unnecessary. If a person has proof that they are the legal owner of a weapon they should not be subjected to another background check in order to retrieve their (assumed) stolen property.
A little redundancy won't hurt here. As everyone who has purchased a gun knows, the background check procedure with the NICS is quick and painless. I don't see a problem with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
Stop blaming Congress for everything. Yeah....they stink a good chunk of the time, but 6 years without a director is not ENTIRELY Congress' fault. Their job is to confirm, but the President can't just nominate any ole Joe and then be surprised when Congress says no. If this was that important to them all it would have been handled already. Obviously....it wasn't.
You are the first person I've seen in 12 years to stick up for Congress, a body at historic popularity lows. You know just as well as I do that confirmation hearings are filled with grudge-holding and people get rejected for personal reasons. In any case, we ought to have a director immediately. Just get it done, Congress. The nominee won't be perfect, I'm sure, but we can't afford to keep posts vacant due to political wrangles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
So Jimmy comes in for whatever and because he has a kid at home he's now going to be grilled by his doctor about gun safety? Give me a break. Let doctors stick to doing what they do best......billing as much as possible for the 5 minutes they are in to see you and let's all go about our day.
I found this whole provision to be weird from both ends. I suppose that it's an attempt to allow healthcare professionals to assess how much a threat a person might be to themselves or others, but I'm not sure how, outside the mental health field, this would be particularly relevant. Within the mental health field it sounds like a damned good idea to me.

On the other hand, conservatives' reactions to it are hilariously froth-at-the-mouth. There is a big difference between allowing doctors to address the subject and it being some sort of insidious information-gathering operation.

Storm in a teacup/mountain out of a molehill.
__________________
Oh, God, God, God! What on earth was I drinking last night? My head feels like there's a Frenchman living in it. - Edmund Blackadder
Lord Blackadder is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:49 AM   #77
rhett7660
macrumors 604
 
rhett7660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sunny, Southern California
I too am curious as to what makes up "relevant data"... Not shooting from the hip or going to extremes. I want to know. If it has been published please point the way, if it hasn't, why not?

Most of these things are already being done to some degree already.
__________________
"It's quite an experience to hold the hand of someone as they move from living to dead."
"Times are looking grim these days, holding on to everything, it's hard to draw the line"
rhett7660 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:52 AM   #78
Charcoalwerks
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
I can't believe everyone is getting so upset over the President's list of proclamations, as it's largely a collection of feel-goods that will do very little to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
Exactly what I was thinking. The Feinstein bill is the one gun owners will want to keep an eye out for.

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/publ...ssault-weapons
__________________
2011 21.5" iMac, 2.5 GHz i5, 12 GB RAM 2.16 GHz BlackBook 16GB iPhone 5C Green
Charcoalwerks is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:58 AM   #79
IBradMac
macrumors 68000
 
IBradMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ohio
Send a message via AIM to IBradMac
I actually don't disagree with almost all of them, granted it works.

But, how does any of it stop someone from going into a school and shooting people?
IBradMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:00 AM   #80
Lord Blackadder
macrumors G4
 
Lord Blackadder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sod off
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBradMac View Post
But, how does any of it stop someone from going into a school and shooting people?
It will, if effectively implemented, reduce the chance that a person who is deemed likely to commit a crime can get access to firearms.
__________________
Oh, God, God, God! What on earth was I drinking last night? My head feels like there's a Frenchman living in it. - Edmund Blackadder
Lord Blackadder is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:01 AM   #81
ugahairydawgs
macrumors 68020
 
ugahairydawgs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBradMac View Post
I actually don't disagree with almost all of them, granted it works.

But, how does any of it stop someone from going into a school and shooting people?
It doesn't. You can't legislate violence away. All you can do is to try and get at the root causes the best you can.
ugahairydawgs is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:02 AM   #82
IBradMac
macrumors 68000
 
IBradMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ohio
Send a message via AIM to IBradMac
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
It doesn't. You can't legislate violence away.
So then who is most affected by these new laws?
IBradMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:04 AM   #83
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBradMac View Post
So then who is most affected by these new laws?

The vast majority of Americans who wish to see gun violence reduced and access to guns tightened up.
__________________
If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
rdowns is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:09 AM   #84
edk99
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder View Post
It will, if effectively implemented, reduce the chance that a person who is deemed likely to commit a crime can get access to firearms.
Get access to fire arms legally!! The Sandy hook shooter COULD NOT buy a gun legally. He stoled his mothers gun. Criminals don't follow the law so they will get their guns elsewhere if they really want one.

Some New York paper published all the addresses of gun owners in NY. They will just have to pick up the paper and go shopping.
edk99 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:11 AM   #85
Moyank24
macrumors 68040
 
Moyank24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: in a New York State of mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
Get access to fire arms legally!! The Sandy hook shooter COULD NOT buy a gun legally. He stoled his mothers gun. Criminals don't follow the law so they will get their guns elsewhere if they really want one.

Some New York paper published all the addresses of gun owners in NY. They will just have to pick up the paper and go shopping.
So what can we do to ensure that gun owners are being responsible with their weapons? If she had her weapons secure, could this have been prevented?
Moyank24 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:20 AM   #86
ugahairydawgs
macrumors 68020
 
ugahairydawgs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
So what can we do to ensure that gun owners are being responsible with their weapons? If she had her weapons secure, could this have been prevented?
Better educate the public on gun safety is a good start, but at the end of the day it is on each gun owner to responsibly store their weapons.

In the case of the Connecticut shooter, there's really no way of knowing if anything could be done there. The mother could have had her guns locked away for all we know. If the shooter knew where the key was located or just busted the door open it wouldn't have stopped anything.
ugahairydawgs is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:22 AM   #87
Lord Blackadder
macrumors G4
 
Lord Blackadder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sod off
Quote:
Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
Get access to fire arms legally!! The Sandy hook shooter COULD NOT buy a gun legally. He stoled his mothers gun. Criminals don't follow the law so they will get their guns elsewhere if they really want one.
Making it harder for prohibited persons to purchase and access firearms will still reduce the chance of them laying hands on them. And I'm behind that. I'm convinced that the measures can reduce shootings while still permitting gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. It won't stop every shooting. But neither will any other measure, not even a 100% firearms ban and a platoon of soldiers in every school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
Some New York paper published all the addresses of gun owners in NY. They will just have to pick up the paper and go shopping.
That was stupid and irresponsible on the part of the paper...and has nothing directly to do with the executive order.
__________________
Oh, God, God, God! What on earth was I drinking last night? My head feels like there's a Frenchman living in it. - Edmund Blackadder
Lord Blackadder is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:01 AM   #88
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder View Post
That was stupid and irresponsible on the part of the paper...and has nothing directly to do with the executive order.
Shortly after that happened I heard someone on the radio complain that when those public disclosure laws were written, lawmakers didn't anticipate the impact that the internet and Google Maps would have on the matter.

Which I think is deliciously ironic.

The argument that the Founders did not anticipate how technology would change the musket has been consistently dismissed by gun enthusiasts.

How do they like changing technology now?

citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:08 AM   #89
IBradMac
macrumors 68000
 
IBradMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ohio
Send a message via AIM to IBradMac
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
The vast majority of Americans who wish to see gun violence reduced and access to guns tightened up.
I was unaware criminals had difficulty acquiring guns.
IBradMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:49 AM   #90
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
Get access to fire arms legally!! The Sandy hook shooter COULD NOT buy a gun legally. He stoled his mothers gun. Criminals don't follow the law so they will get their guns elsewhere if they really want one.

Some New York paper published all the addresses of gun owners in NY. They will just have to pick up the paper and go shopping.

It is estimated that 600,00-1,000,000 guns are stolen annually. Seems to me legal gun owners are one of a criminal's best sources to obtain guns.
__________________
If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
rdowns is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:11 PM   #91
SilentPanda
Thread Starter
Moderator emeritus
 
SilentPanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bamboo Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
It is estimated that 600,00-1,000,000 guns are stolen annually. Seems to me legal gun owners are one of a criminal's best sources to obtain guns.
According to this report by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the number stolen during burglaries is 232,400 yearly on average. This would not include guns stolen in some other random situations that I can't think of that aren't counted as burglaries. That's still quite a bit though.
__________________
My 24 hour web cam!
SilentPanda is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:18 PM   #92
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
According to this report by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the number stolen during burglaries is 232,400 yearly on average. This would not include guns stolen in some other random situations that I can't think of that aren't counted as burglaries. That's still quite a bit though.

I got the 600,000 from Mayors Against Illegal Guns report that was posted on MR a few days ago. I'd also point out that in most states, gun owners are under no obligation to report stolen guns.

EDIT: 600K number is suspect.
http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....t-stolen.shtml
__________________
If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
rdowns is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:22 PM   #93
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Well the NRA has manage to block thinks like tracking stolen guns and guns used in crimes back to the gun shops that sold them. Researching stuff like that.
You know basic logic. Gun shops that have a very high number of guns being traced back to them that were used in crimes should be massive red flags for that gun shop and reason to have permits yanked.

Basic logic but the NRA is fighting something as simple as finding the bad apples.
Show me where the NRA blocked any action to track a stolen gun back to the shop that sold the stolen gun.

Utter ********.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:29 PM   #94
leekohler
Banned
 
leekohler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
Show me where the NRA blocked any action to track a stolen gun back to the shop that sold the stolen gun.

Utter ********.
Here you go. They have blocked the tracking of stolen guns, maybe not back to the original shop, but this is still bad:

Quote:
When police need to find a gun that was used in a crime, and then pawned, they will be out of luck in the state of Florida.

Next month, eight of Florida's 67 counties will begin a pilot project to test a new computer system that will allow police to trace stolen property that ends up in pawn shops. But because of pressure from the National Rifle Association, one of the most commonly pawned items — guns — won't be kept in the database.

When Florida's sheriffs meet next week for their annual summer conference, the NRA is sure to be high on their hit list.

When Florida began planning its statewide database for pawn shops, the idea was to keep records of everything pawned for two years, giving police a new tool to track stolen goods including guns. Then along came the NRA.

"As it comes to guns, the statewide database will be absolutely useless," says Florida Attorney General Bob Butterworth. That's because the NRA said keeping records of pawned guns is the same as registering them, which they believe violates the Constitution's Second Amendment.

"Gun registration, pure and simple," says NRA Florida lobbyist Marion Hammer. "That's our only issue with it."

The NRA wields enormous political power in Florida, so lawmakers agreed to a change: All pawned merchandise will be kept in the database for two years, except guns. Gun records will be erased after just two days.

It's a plan that has outraged police chiefs and sheriffs across the state. Many of them, like Brevard County Sheriff Phil Williams, are longtime NRA members.

"The NRA is going to leave law enforcement one-legged when they're trying to investigate gun theft [or] violent crime with the use of a gun [when] that gun is subsequently pawned at a pawn shop," says Williams.

Even some pawn shop owners think the NRA is wrong on this one.

Mark Kersey, the manger of Space Coast Pawn and Jewelry, is a member of the NRA, but doesn't agree with the group on this issue: "If my guns were stolen, I would want to be able to find them."
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130798&page=1
leekohler is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:32 PM   #95
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder View Post


I disagree with some of the features of the assault weapons ban. I think a more common-sense approach is to simply include capacity limits for all semiautomatic weapons with detachable magazines, rather than trying to list "scary" features and ban them. I don't think Americans have much to fear from bayonets, for example.
What is the point in that? So my gun can now only hold 10 rounds. I just have a bunch of loaded clips in my pocket. It takes me less than 5 seconds to drop the clip out of my .45 and pull a full clip out and put it in. A little longer on my 30-06 but still under 10 seconds.

I'm shooting, you are hiding under a table...is that 5 second reload time going to help you?

NO

Why do people think that by limiting the clip capacity it is going to help anything? The shooter is not going to walk in with one clip and a box of rounds and stop to reload an empty clip in the middle of a shooting spree.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:41 PM   #96
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
What is the point in that? So my gun can now only hold 10 rounds. I just have a bunch of loaded clips in my pocket. It takes me less than 5 seconds to drop the clip out of my .45 and pull a full clip out and put it in. A little longer on my 30-06 but still under 10 seconds.

I'm shooting, you are hiding under a table...is that 5 second reload time going to help you?

NO

Why do people think that by limiting the clip capacity it is going to help anything? The shooter is not going to walk in with one clip and a box of rounds and stop to reload an empty clip in the middle of a shooting spree.


Tell that to Jared Loughner.

Quote:
Patricia Maisch looks like a grandmother, but she is being hailed as a hero today for helping to stop alleged Tucson shooter Jared Loughner by wrestling away a fresh magazine of bullets as he tried to reload.

Maisch, 61, effectively disarmed the shooter as several men pounced on him and threw him to ground. As they struggled to hold him down, Maisch joined the scrum on the ground, clinging to the gunman's ankles.

Maisch and her fellow heroes -- identified as Bill Badger, Roger Sulzgeber and Joseph Zamudio -- stopped the carnage after 20 people were shot, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. Six people died.
__________________
If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
rdowns is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:53 PM   #97
leekohler
Banned
 
leekohler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
I must confess- I've never felt so ignored as I do in these gun threads.
leekohler is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:56 PM   #98
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Here you go. They have blocked the tracking of stolen guns, maybe not back to the original shop, but this is still bad:
The part they don't tell you is that the weapon is held for a minimum of 15 days after it is sold to a pawn shop and checked against the ATF database for being stolen. If it's stolen, they should find it then.

In Florida, pawn shops must hold weapons for 30 days before they can be sold and during that time, they ARE in the pawn database.

Currently long guns are not required to registered in most states and in Florida the voters shot down a bill that would require long run registration the same as hand guns. This was an attempt to circumvent that by tracking the sales of the gun, effectively creating a database of who owns the guns.

The Florida Crime Information Center also keeps a database on stolen guns that pawn brokers access to check weapons BEFORE buying them. Stolen guns entered into the system never expire so if the gun was stolen 10 years ago and was taken to a pawn shop tomorrow, it would be identified.

http://pas.fdle.state.fl.us/pas/item/displayGunSearch.a

So why should we track who legally purchases that weapon after all the checks have already been performed?
MuddyPaws1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:56 PM   #99
Moyank24
macrumors 68040
 
Moyank24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: in a New York State of mind
And in case none of these work, Governor Rick Perry has an idea of his own...

Quote:
"There is evil prowling in the world ó it shows up in our movies, video games and online fascinations, and finds its way into vulnerable hearts and minds," he said. "As a free people, let us choose what kind of people we will be. Laws, the only redoubt of secularism, will not suffice. Let us all return to our places of worship and pray for help."
So, let's all just pray really, really, really hard - if we do that nothing bad will ever happen!

Source
Moyank24 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:03 PM   #100
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Tell that to Jared Loughner.
Um....that was after he was hit with a chair and knocked down by a veteran that did not run away from the gunshots, but toward them. He was hit with a chair while he was still shooting.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anti-gun/violence activist caught with gun in a school lostngone Politics, Religion, Social Issues 16 Feb 12, 2014 12:32 AM
Obama signs executive order to shut down all communications MacNut Wasteland 30 Jul 12, 2013 05:43 AM
Gun Violence and Mental Health citizenzen Politics, Religion, Social Issues 12 Jun 11, 2013 04:07 PM
Bidenís Gun Violence Event Interrupted By News Of Another School Shooting rdowns Politics, Religion, Social Issues 113 Jan 13, 2013 12:38 PM
How effective a president has Obama been? jeremy h Politics, Religion, Social Issues 29 Sep 20, 2012 10:00 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:56 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC