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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:15 AM   #326
deconstruct60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yebubbleman View Post

... In many ways, the 13" Air beats the 13" cMBP in normal speed tests due to the SSD, and they now cost the same at base configuration. Non-Retina MacBook Pros are gone. The fact that the two revs shared a single rev side-by-side is uncommon and, for those of us who really wanted/needed one, a blessing.
They're not gone and they are side by side because more folks were buying them than any other Mac model. Apple couldn't risk nuking them in one step because if the wrong move that would practically blow up the whole Mac market. ( Mac market saddled with the same 'doom and gloom' that the general classic PC market is laboring under would be worse for the Mac than it is for the broader market. )

It is purely an artificial impediment that Apple makes the Apple labeled 2.5" SDD prices so disconnected from the real 2.5" SSD market. a cMBP with an ODD dropped to offset move to standard form factor SSD would work.


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Unless display thickness is an issue, I don't see why it couldn't get a retina display.
For the MBA ? Pricing. A Retina display would be lower margins if the prices stay the same. The MBA gained Mac share because of the lower pricing. Back when it was more expensive than the MBP 13" it sold in dismally small (like Mac Pro sized ) numbers.

Also to a less extent graphics. MBA's are clocked slower on CPU clock but the graphics clock is cut even more so to dump TDP.



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Apple has never done what they're doing with the MacBook Pro line with any other device. Period.
this is closer to being a architecture transition 68K->PPC and to less extent PPC -> Intel where there is some overlaps for approximately a year or so.




Quote:
Similarly, the 15" rMBP is cheaper than the 15" cMBP when both are configured with SSDs, so there goes your "cheaper" argument, save for how the models are priced.
Only cheaper if use Apple components. Apple's totally disconnected from market realities 2.5 SSD pricing makes this an Apple to Oranges comparison. Use non-Apple RAM and SSD to "equate" the two and the cMBP 15" will come out less expensive. It is only if drink Apple kool-aid is the rMBP as "price leader" when it comes to leveling the RAM+SSD playing field.


Quote:
Given Apple's stance on a HDD/ODD-less future for notebooks, I think they're fine sacrificing the low-cost of their non-retina counterparts, especially given that the 13" MacBook Air is poised to cannibalize the 13" cMBP.
If Apple bumps the MBA 13' RAM and SSD sizes to 8GB and minimal 128GB SSD while keeping the prices the same there is a decent chance they may nuke the cMBP 13" even though it probably is still selling in greater numbers right now.

It depends though if the MBA 13" and MBP 13" both grew or not. If both grew in sales numbers in 2012-2013 it would be huge bonehead move to kill one of them. If cMBP 13" is ahead but sinking steady due to MBA 13" pressure then yeah Apple probably would nuke it before it went too negative and impact overall Mac market growth.

Frankly, Apple's 13" laptop line up being capped at 8GB max RAM seems likely to present as a growth problem if the go that route. The farce they are playing on 2.5" SSD pricing is also increasingly a larger risk of the strategy failing.

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Really, there's a rule in Mac Consulting...or at least there should be. Most of Apple's products are on an 8-10 month release cycle.
It is far more a 12 month cycle or more accurately a "once a year" cycle. Really 12 +/- 2-3 months. The plus/minus thrown in to dispel complete complacency and predictability (i.e., offset Osborne Effect) .

There are some subset of products that are consistantly not on that cycle though. Peripherals ( displays, routers, AppleTV ). Mini's and Mac Pro's have highly deviated. What Apple's competitors and part suppliers are doing plays a role also.

Quote:
Then from months six to eight, it's "buy only if you need it".
Simple as that.
Actually that should be dominate default rule of them. Buy it if you need (represents significantly added value over what leveraging now. Not that it is newer or slicker. ). If folks buy every 3-5 years then the short term delta isn't usually a trigger.

Trying to "game" Apple by timing the buys is dubious and flawed strategy.
If generally need a Holiday Season gift ... buy late Nov -Early Dec.... but that is timed on when need the present, not gaming Apple. If workload has grown too large/heavy for current Mac get a new one.

Otherwise just wait till Apple announces. Then wait another 4 weeks until the release bugs surface and then buy based on better knowledge now have. in short , the other primary rule of thumb should be to judge buys on what you already know about the new products. Not guessing at unknown products.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:20 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by PVisitors View Post
Stop giving false information. The resolution issues were software and have been fixed if you install a webkit or wait until Apple update Safari.

And the Retina Macbook is USB 3.0 too.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6495/l...retina-display

Oh no, it is not false. The point is truly wise to wait a couple months if you don't need the computer now. Better processor architecture and likely lower price. Better looking body is also possible.

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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:21 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by AndyDiamond View Post
I was ging to get the 13 rMBP but the lack of QuadCore and max RAM put me back to the 15. Some people might not need a QuadCore but I do - hence the price difference - there are choices. Something for everyone.
I don't "need" it but I definitely want it. And apparently my want is enough that I will wait for the new ones to come out.

I don't need it right away and for me it's wait since I know that at least the processor will be better on the 13 inch Retina Macbook Pro and I can pray that they let you upgrade to 16 GB of Ram
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:28 AM   #329
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I find it hard to imagine that they will keep the Air, cMBP and rMBP model families. But thenwe are in the post Jobs era. So we may just see a resurgence of Performas and Quadras.

Honestly I expect them to kill off either the cMBP or the Air.
Given that the CPU on the air is fairly lightweight, and it's price is considerably less than the rest of the family. And also considering that the cMBP is the only laptop model line shipping with magnetic rotating disk hard rives.
http://www.apple.com/why-mac/compare/notebooks.html
I expect they would opt to sunset the classic Macbook Pro. Too bad, I like computers that are user serviceable.
The one slim chance I hold out is that they will migrate the Air line to non intel chips (like multiple Arm cores, or Tegra 4?). In that case I imagine Apple would elect to "experiment" with one model family, while keeping the other 2 families normal, so as not to jerk the revenue rug out from under Cupertino if teh non-Intel silicon is a failure.


Sadly the Mac Pro has been allowed to languish so long, I wonder if it is even able to be resuscitated. Many professionals I know have moved on to iMacs and MBPs with maxed out configs. The few I know who really put the Mac Pro on the rails have either already fled to Windows hardware, or are actively exploring the idea.
There are a few narrow market segments that used to NEED a Mac Pro.
Audio professionals using Pro Tools etc, Graphics guys using Adobe, but with teh exception of a few plug in suites, everything you needed a Mac for, can be done on better hardware in Windows.
Sad but true.
Of course you are then stuck fighting Microsoft's UAC and a world full of hackers...
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:10 PM   #330
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I don't understand the constant wrong letters used for MBP with cMBP vs the proper uMBP.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:21 PM   #331
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How hilarious...

In this article, in the predictions... the MacPro is not even mentioned in the graphs... Says a lot about the state of that machine and it's future. Heck it says lot about Pro users too... It's as dead as a road kill.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:43 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
It is not "issues" is about how fast does it start. It likely didn't start up as fast on the 2-3Mbps line as it now does on fiber. There is no reason why that faster experience has to be limited only to users on fiber. The overwhelming majority of the AppleTV users are not on fiber and won't be in the next couple of years.
I honestly cannot say that I noticed a difference. Neither has my wife, who would have said something. Anecdotal I know.

I realize I am beating a dead horse, but I still think the experience is where Apple wants it to be. I don't see them dumping money into these upgrades, unless of course they get it on the cheap (in which case they wouldn't be dumping money I guess?) Anyway, we will see in a few short months! I would personally be happy if we could just get a jailbreak going for the third gen atv!

----------

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Originally Posted by nostromo77 View Post
How hilarious...

In this article, in the predictions... the MacPro is not even mentioned in the graphs... Says a lot about the state of that machine and it's future. Heck it says lot about Pro users too... It's as dead as a road kill.
You probably missed that predictions within this article is based on Asian supply chains. Supposedly the Mac Pro will have a big old "MADE IN USA" stamp on it. Ok, not really, but it will supposedly be made in USA. Cook mentioned something about there being something along the horizon, and there are a few pro users talking within the thread. I think so many of them waited for so long they sort of gave up the fight (posting).
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 06:51 PM   #333
Tora Shin
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HDD's in the new MBP?

Does anyone else think they'll reintroduce HDD's (with fusion drive) into the MBP's? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for SSD's - i have 2 - but the general public generally don't want to pay retail prices for them, never mind Apple's mad prices. Since they're killing the non-retina pro, and the pro's and airs are starting to merge into the same product, customers need more choice than this. Also, I think it's about time they made use of Anobit drives. Dedicated GPU's in the 13" would be fabulous tooo
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:38 AM   #334
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i hope there's more coming sooner. apple needs to start releasing stuff faster to keep up with android and other players
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:47 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by joeloco View Post
So you believe that there will be a Retina 15" refresh between 11 March and 11 May 2013? Surely if that were true we'd have some updates being leaked from the factory already. I'm thinking of buying a Retina 15" but I'd definitely wait if it was only a few months before the refresh.
That doesn't happen every MacBook Pro update. It happened with the Early 2011 generation, yes, as did it with the Mid 2012 generation, but it didn't with the Late 2011. Odds are, especially given that it won't be a body redesign, it'll be slight and thusly, there will be no need to leak anything. Hell, it might just be to lower-wattage Ivy Bridge.

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
They're not gone and they are side by side because more folks were buying them than any other Mac model. Apple couldn't risk nuking them in one step because if the wrong move that would practically blow up the whole Mac market. ( Mac market saddled with the same 'doom and gloom' that the general classic PC market is laboring under would be worse for the Mac than it is for the broader market. )
Apple introduced a design that was mostly applauded. Maybe they might've been stupid to immediately nix the 13" cMBP, but they certainly had no reason to stagger out the roll-out of retina and the transition away from the 2008-2012 unibody body style that we've known and loved. It's not like it's a PowerMac G5 or a Mac Pro in which some customers really need time to transition properly (given that it is predominantly used in the field and not in the home).

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
It is purely an artificial impediment that Apple makes the Apple labeled 2.5" SDD prices so disconnected from the real 2.5" SSD market. a cMBP with an ODD dropped to offset move to standard form factor SSD would work.
There's no incentive for Apple to do, yet another redesign that is more similar to the cMBP; given their stance on everything that makes the rMBP different from it. 2.5" SSDs are only important to them in the Mac mini. That's it. For all other purpose mSATA sticks/blades suffice just as well, if not better (for them anyway).




Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
For the MBA ? Pricing. A Retina display would be lower margins if the prices stay the same. The MBA gained Mac share because of the lower pricing. Back when it was more expensive than the MBP 13" it sold in dismally small (like Mac Pro sized ) numbers.
While this isn't true for the 13" model, for the 15" rMBP, there is no price premium compared to a similarly specced 15" cMBP. You take a 2.6GHz retina with a 512GB (or 256GB for that matter) SSD and you compare it to a 2.6GHz non-retina with the same capacity SSD, the non-retina costs more. So, no, I don't buy that a retina display would necessarily hike up the price. It could, but it doesn't necessarily have to, as the 15" rMBP has clearly shown us.



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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
this is closer to being a architecture transition 68K->PPC and to less extent PPC -> Intel where there is some overlaps for approximately a year or so.
While I agree that it is a similar transition, it's still not being handled in the same fashion at all. In the transition from PowerPC to Intel in 2006, you had the iMacs, which went first, in which both were sold side by side until supplies of the iSight model iMac G5 sold out while the same happened with the 15" PowerBook G4 while the Early 2006 15" MacBook Pro came on the scene. Thereafter, starting with the 17" MacBook Pro, and continuing to the Mac mini and the iBook/MacBook, the PowerPC machine was discontinued in favor of the Intel version. The only exceptions to this rule were the final rev of Power Mac G5s and the final rev of iBook G4s; but those were only available in special channels and were not sold in stores alongside the Intel models.

In today's case, we have two different body styles of MacBook Pro AND BOTH CONTAIN THE LATEST INTEL HARDWARE ALONG WITH USB 3! This is a key difference. The Mid 2012 13" and 15" non-retina MacBook Pros are current Apple hardware and are no less current than the 13" and 15" retina MacBook Pros. The two are both featuring current hardware and in a side-by-side fashion. The former isn't only out while supplies last. No, Apple is making them until the end of the rev as per normal. Same thing with the Mid 2012 15" retina and the Late 2012 13" retina. It is expected that these too will be discontinued in favor of 2013 retina successors. Again, this is not at all like what Apple did in either architecture transition.






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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Only cheaper if use Apple components. Apple's totally disconnected from market realities 2.5 SSD pricing makes this an Apple to Oranges comparison. Use non-Apple RAM and SSD to "equate" the two and the cMBP 15" will come out less expensive. It is only if drink Apple kool-aid is the rMBP as "price leader" when it comes to leveling the RAM+SSD playing field.
It only makes sense to compare Apple's prices here. The fact that you can put in a way cheaper aftermarket SSD is obvious and irrelevant as you therefore can't point to the display as the reason why the price costs so much more when it's obviously the SSD instead.




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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
If Apple bumps the MBA 13' RAM and SSD sizes to 8GB and minimal 128GB SSD while keeping the prices the same there is a decent chance they may nuke the cMBP 13" even though it probably is still selling in greater numbers right now.

It depends though if the MBA 13" and MBP 13" both grew or not. If both grew in sales numbers in 2012-2013 it would be huge bonehead move to kill one of them. If cMBP 13" is ahead but sinking steady due to MBA 13" pressure then yeah Apple probably would nuke it before it went too negative and impact overall Mac market growth.

Frankly, Apple's 13" laptop line up being capped at 8GB max RAM seems likely to present as a growth problem if the go that route. The farce they are playing on 2.5" SSD pricing is also increasingly a larger risk of the strategy failing.
Really, I don't think that the retina design is one that will deter anywhere near a majority of the 13" MacBook Pro market. Combine that with Apple's stance that this is the future and that the design of what we know as "cMBP" is "the past".

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
It is far more a 12 month cycle or more accurately a "once a year" cycle. Really 12 +/- 2-3 months. The plus/minus thrown in to dispel complete complacency and predictability (i.e., offset Osborne Effect) .

There are some subset of products that are consistantly not on that cycle though. Peripherals ( displays, routers, AppleTV ). Mini's and Mac Pro's have highly deviated. What Apple's competitors and part suppliers are doing plays a role also.
MacBook Pros have, since the Intel switch (if not before during the PowerBook G4 days) have strictly adhered to 8-10 months. The only oddball exceptions are during design changeovers, but that would result in increased frequency for that period and not decreased.

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Actually that should be dominate default rule of them. Buy it if you need (represents significantly added value over what leveraging now. Not that it is newer or slicker. ). If folks buy every 3-5 years then the short term delta isn't usually a trigger.

Trying to "game" Apple by timing the buys is dubious and flawed strategy.
If generally need a Holiday Season gift ... buy late Nov -Early Dec.... but that is timed on when need the present, not gaming Apple. If workload has grown too large/heavy for current Mac get a new one.

Otherwise just wait till Apple announces. Then wait another 4 weeks until the release bugs surface and then buy based on better knowledge now have. in short , the other primary rule of thumb should be to judge buys on what you already know about the new products. Not guessing at unknown products.

I typically wait two to three months. The only exception I've ever made to that was with the fifth gen iPod touch; luckily that hasn't burned me yet.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 03:40 AM   #336
HurryKayne
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Well on my wish list i hope to see :
•a Retina Ipad mini with a6 and one gig of ram
•an haswell quad core macbook air
•an haswell quad core mac mini
•and a Mac Pro
•a capacitive Ipad Active Stylus with a realistic tip..and shape not the great one we usually see now

for the iphone i need to see if its only a simple..re-S-hape,don't need a 5S
and to see what Samsung will do with next Galaxy S4.

Apple Tv,,,only if at one good price,with open inputs( not thunderbolt please..my next Xbox "720" is just behind the corner),good white and black,no ghosting and a very low input lag
but with U-HDTV..the next 3-4 years could make me wait.

Let 's see.

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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:57 PM   #337
deconstruct60
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Originally Posted by Yebubbleman View Post
but they certainly had no reason to stagger out the roll-out of retina and the transition away from the 2008-2012 unibody body style that we've known and loved.
They had every good reason as the iMac cluster f'ed rollout very clearly demonstrated. The laminated retina screens were a new production technology that may not scale well. Apple chose the likely lowest run rate (the most expensive, 15" ) to do first. They put a large gap inbetween to work out the kinks and then did the 13". The process and screens will likely be more expensive than previous generation/technology for at least 12 months so they ran them in parallel.

The iMacs are spread out over a relatively broad price zone $1099-1,999+ there was no room to run both nor a huge necessity (the growth rate of iMac is lower than laptops). There probably also was likely some hubris mixed in that the new production technology would work much better than it did. The difficulties probably didn't scale linearly with screen size. Probably much worse.

Quote:
2.5" SSDs are only important to them in the Mac mini. That's it. For all other purpose mSATA sticks/blades suffice just as well, if not better (for them anyway).
I wouldn't discount 2.5 SSD playing a role in revised Mac Pros but yes there is the "reuse of component factor". The looming problem for Apple though is the overall SSD market. Macs just don't only sell against Macs. The limitations on the mSATA blades is capacity. Prior to 2013 Flash was more prohibitatively expensive. Mainstream drives now are getting close to cracking the $1/GB range. Expectation levels of not have to sacrifice storage space for a SSD are going to substantially rise this year along with the following ones.

mSATA only will bite them in the butt once capacity more critical evaluation factor.

Quote:
for the 15" rMBP, there is no price premium compared to a similarly specced 15" cMBP.
Sell the kool-aid to the clueless. Simple math proves otherwise.

cMBP 15" (2.3GHz , 4GB , 500GB ) $1,799
+ $60 for 8 GB (2x4GB kit) ( http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memor..._1600MHz_SDRAM )
+ $204 for Samsung 830 256 GB ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820147164 )
+ $100 install fee. ( or lower. )

total: $2,163

rMBP 15" (2.3GHz , 8GB , 256GB ) $2,199


Last I checked $2,163 (or lower ) was less than $2,199 . So yes there is a price premium for the retina model. [ NOTE: haven't sold the replaced HDD or RAM either. Or repurposed the HDD as an new external back up target. Nor haven't sold off the ODD which haven't sold off either (or added to the price of the rMBP system to even the spec equivalences). ]

Note also that these aftermarket parts are not being bought in quantities of 1,000's or 10,000's so actually paying more for those than Apple is. So yes the Retina displays do significantly drive up the prices. That doesn't say they don't add value, but it is paid for value with a price premium.


Quote:
You take a 2.6GHz retina with a 512GB (or 256GB for that matter) SSD and you compare it to a 2.6GHz non-retina with the same capacity SSD, the non-retina costs more.
Nope, not really.


$2,199 + $550 + $50 => $2,799

$2,799

[ $550 for Samsung 830 512GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820147165

$50 install fee.

There are some 512GB SSD in the sub $400 range Curcial M4. But Apple usually leverages Samsung stuff so trying to keep it even. ]

There is a lower gap here because the higher end cMBP 15" comes bundled with the same skewed priced RAM as was much more easily sidestepped by the lower end version. Same issues with differences in bulk buy pricing.

There is an illusion that Apple (and others ) is presenting about Retina display being the "same" as classic display but it is largely an illusion.


Quote:
So, no, I don't buy that a retina display would necessarily hike up the price.
You don't have to buy it... but that non-buy isn't based on quantitative evidence.

Quote:
It only makes sense to compare Apple's prices here.
No it doesn't if Apple is using skewed prices to blow smoke. There is substantial disinformation in Apple's pricing. It would be quite another thing if Apple was adding the nominal corporate 40% mark-up. That is far, far about that level.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 02:34 PM   #338
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Basically there are two theories of modifying Apple's iOS software and hardware release dates: Move them back to late Spring/early Summer, or keep them in mid Fall. Mac news and trends have been the same for years and aside for the retina MBP we can expect the same annual bumps with minimal changes.

iPhone: Kuo expects that Apple will introduce both an iPhone 5S and a revamped iPhone 5 around June or July of this year, with the iPhone 5S appearing very similar to the current iPhone 5 but carrying a number of upgrades including an A7 system-on-a-chip for better performance, a fingerprint sensor, and camera improvements such as an f2.0 aperture and a smart LED flash. He also believes that the lower-cost iPhone will in many ways simply be an iPhone 5 repackaged into a slightly thicker (8.2 mm vs. the current 7.6 mm) plastic enclosure available in six colors.

I think we'll see a 5S sooner than summer, Spring, and then a 6 around the same time as the past few years, Fall. I don't see them changing the 5, but maybe dropping the 4 and 4S and filling the gap with the iPhone mini?
The predictions above seem quite likely.

If Apple wants to call more attention to its iPhone, I do think it would be wise to introduce the previously rumored iPhone mini. It would instantly appeal as "cute & adorable" by Apples female customers from young to old.

Keeping the iPhone to its relatively small size all these years is what has appealed to a huge number of women & metrosexuals. That & the fact that the case makers offer a plethora of feminine stylized cases in all price ranges target directly at that demographic.

The fact that you can't buy diamond encrusted cases or cases decorated with lower cost fashion baubles for other brands highlights this overwhelming advantage.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 06:32 PM   #339
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If they don't upgrade the Mac Pro in 2013, I will be buying a desktop PC.

I love Apple, but this is really getting insane.

I have work to do, Apple, and I'm not upgrading to the current Mac Pro.
Dude Tim Cook himself, the CEO of the company SAID they would THIS YEAR! And that is coming from a company as secretive as Apple lol. I think you can calm down
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 12:45 PM   #340
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interesting, but how about details?

i like predictions like these, but how about some more details?
say, 2013-2015 trends with actual numbers?

SSD, rMBA, newer iPhone screens...
iMac *cannot* become Retina with Thunderbolt because TB is *too slow!*
ARM, iOS+OSX, etc -- would love to read more on this guy's theories!

on a side note, 2013-2015?
http://kiyoshi.co.uk/apple-2013-2015/
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 12:47 PM   #341
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Expensive Toys Sold in a Specialty Store

If these roadmaps play out and don't change much year to year, then Apple is going to look more and more like Sony. They will make their toys, but they will miss out on the big innovations in computing. The last transition was analogue to digital (walkman to iPod, and the iPhone). Apple is living on this legacy and making billions doing it.

But the next wave will be pervasive intelligent devices. Computing will shrink to the point it disappears. Apple did show the way forward with Siri, but I don't think Apple is putting the resources into software in the way that Google, Nuance, and Microsoft are. Is Apple investing heavily in machine learning, robotics, neural networks, supercomputing, and other aspects of AI? If Apple falls behind in these areas, then they will have expensive toys, with walled gardens, that are sold in their specialty stores, but they will simply be dumber devices than what the leading computing companies are offering. That does not sound like a great future. The future isn't about the device, it's about software and artificial intelligence. The hardware will become less important and interchangeable.

Apple has billions on cash, they need to ramp up in these areas. I understand that Apple dropped "Computers" from their name a few years ago. But they need to get to the forefront of software and computing to remain relevant.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 07:04 PM   #342
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Would Apple really go almost 2 quarters releasing nothing but an Apple TV refresh?
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 07:20 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
They had every good reason as the iMac cluster f'ed rollout very clearly demonstrated. The laminated retina screens were a new production technology that may not scale well. Apple chose the likely lowest run rate (the most expensive, 15" ) to do first. They put a large gap inbetween to work out the kinks and then did the 13". The process and screens will likely be more expensive than previous generation/technology for at least 12 months so they ran them in parallel.
The laminated screens caused way more of a debacle for the iMacs than they did for either retina model. Also, and this will be a recurring theme throughout my reply to you here: I know that SSDs don't cost as much as Apple charges for them. But don't be fooled, Apple isn't overcharging on the SSDs to make up for the cost in the display. The display is costly to them, but nowhere near THAT costly. Apple likely needed time so that they weren't SOLELY shipping MacBook Pros that had 90% of pre-existing Mac apps looking crappy on them. Otherwise, the only other reason to have a transition like that would be to ease customers of their most popular line into the new changes. Apple tends to not care about how expensive their models are. And again, compared to WHAT THEY ARE CHARGING for a non-retina MacBook Pro with an SSD, the retina model is cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
The iMacs are spread out over a relatively broad price zone $1099-1,999+ there was no room to run both nor a huge necessity (the growth rate of iMac is lower than laptops). There probably also was likely some hubris mixed in that the new production technology would work much better than it did. The difficulties probably didn't scale linearly with screen size. Probably much worse.
There's also overlap in the MBP line. Overlap in the iMac wouldn't have been horrible for them. Though, I agree, there's not that much of a necessity for it. In this case, overlap would've likely solved supply problems...though there would've been little reason to do the kind of overlap that they did with the MacBook Pro lines (with both machines running Ivy Bridge). They should've announced that the 21.5" iMac would be updated immediately and that the 27" one would've been updated two months later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
I wouldn't discount 2.5 SSD playing a role in revised Mac Pros but yes there is the "reuse of component factor". The looming problem for Apple though is the overall SSD market. Macs just don't only sell against Macs. The limitations on the mSATA blades is capacity. Prior to 2013 Flash was more prohibitatively expensive. Mainstream drives now are getting close to cracking the $1/GB range. Expectation levels of not have to sacrifice storage space for a SSD are going to substantially rise this year along with the following ones.
This is an area that I actually know little about. I only assumed that, since 768GB SSDs were uncommon in the 2.5" SATA form factor arena, mSATA and 2.5" SATA drives were more or less in parity in terms of cost and technological availability (and with that I make the assumption that Apple is overcharging for its mSATA SSDs as much as it is for its 2.5" SATA SSDs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
mSATA only will bite them in the butt once capacity more critical evaluation factor.
Again, technologically speaking, they seem to be in parity with each other. But again, this is an area, I don't know much about. I think mSATA makes it substantially easier for them to make their drives proprietary, which is great for them and terrible for us consumers. But that's Apple for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Sell the kool-aid to the clueless. Simple math proves otherwise.

cMBP 15" (2.3GHz , 4GB , 500GB ) $1,799
+ $60 for 8 GB (2x4GB kit) ( http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memor..._1600MHz_SDRAM )
+ $204 for Samsung 830 256 GB ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820147164 )
+ $100 install fee. ( or lower. )

total: $2,163

rMBP 15" (2.3GHz , 8GB , 256GB ) $2,199
I think you missed a key point of my argument. Again, this is the main point I want to drive here. I recognize that Apple over-charges for their own SSDs. That much is incredibly hard to refute. I also recognize that you can buy a non-retina MacBook Pro with the base hard drive, and swap that out for a much cheaper after-market SSD. That's not my point. My point is that for what Apple is charging for SSDs on both machines the 15" retina model is cheaper than the 15" non-retina model. Given this, it is a fair assumption that either, the retina screen doesn't cost all that much, or Apple is marking up the mSATA SSDs much less than the 2.5" SATA SSDs.

No Kool-Aid here, bro. I know exactly how much Apple is ripping me off with its SSD prices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Last I checked $2,163 (or lower ) was less than $2,199 . So yes there is a price premium for the retina model. [ NOTE: haven't sold the replaced HDD or RAM either. Or repurposed the HDD as an new external back up target. Nor haven't sold off the ODD which haven't sold off either (or added to the price of the rMBP system to even the spec equivalences). ]
Again, the point I made above sort of makes your argument here, while true and valid, moot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Note also that these aftermarket parts are not being bought in quantities of 1,000's or 10,000's so actually paying more for those than Apple is. So yes the Retina displays do significantly drive up the prices. That doesn't say they don't add value, but it is paid for value with a price premium.
See above point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Nope, not really.


$2,199 + $550 + $50 => $2,799

$2,799

[ $550 for Samsung 830 512GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820147165

$50 install fee.

There are some 512GB SSD in the sub $400 range Curcial M4. But Apple usually leverages Samsung stuff so trying to keep it even. ]

There is a lower gap here because the higher end cMBP 15" comes bundled with the same skewed priced RAM as was much more easily sidestepped by the lower end version. Same issues with differences in bulk buy pricing.

There is an illusion that Apple (and others ) is presenting about Retina display being the "same" as classic display but it is largely an illusion.
Again, I'm not talking about comparing a non-retina MacBook Pro bought with the cheapest storage option and upgraded with an aftermarket SSD; I'm talking about one customized from Apple with an Apple-supplied SSD inside. I know that it's not the cost-effective route to go, but when comparing their pricing of one machine to their pricing of another, that's the best way to measure out how much Apple itself sees the worth of these machines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
You don't have to buy it... but that non-buy isn't based on quantitative evidence.
It is if you ignore the DIY-SSD upgrade (which wasn't part of my original argument to begin with) and focus on only the Apple-sanctioned configurations and price-points, which is the basis of my argument to begin with. I'm not saying that anyone with knowledge of how to use a screw-driver would go for the Apple-sanctioned SSD config for the non-retina MacBook Pros, but my comparison involves THAT configuration in comparison to the retina models, not any other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
No it doesn't if Apple is using skewed prices to blow smoke. There is substantial disinformation in Apple's pricing. It would be quite another thing if Apple was adding the nominal corporate 40% mark-up. That is far, far about that level.
Skewwing prices or not, I'm comparing Apple prices to Apple prices. Again, it reveals that either the retina display isn't that expensive, or it reveals that they take much less of a profit from the mSATA SSDs than they do from the 2.5" SATA SSDs.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 04:50 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSanchez View Post
I was referring to the refresh. Saying that the 13 inch Retina "refresh" in June will be better then the current model since it will likely be Haswell.

I prefer the 13 inch over the 15 inch. That's what stopped from buying right now, in a "perfect world" I would buy the current 13 inch Retina + 325 for the processor + 180 for the extra ram.

The problem is, it's not a perfect world lol.

So I'm waiting for the new rMBP to come out, hopefully in June.
The new Haswell in an i3/i5 variation doesn't mean it will be better than an ivy bridge i7. Plus based on most reports, the new processors are more after power optimisation and not performance boost.

----------

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Originally Posted by K42 View Post
I think the most important thing to answer is what OS you are comfortable with and what software you want to run, or already own.

Yes the top-tier windows notebook are bulkier than a MBP, but not all are extremely bulky. And the question is: does it really matter if you want a desktop replacement?

Telling people to avoid all windows ultrabooks is silly. The Apple machines are okay, but it is not as if no sensible windows machines exist.
Other than the Samsung 9 series, I didn't see any other notebook with factory specs similar to an Apple MBP, which isn't bulkier. If you want a desktop replacement, size doesn't matter that much, expect if you start looking at your other needs as well, i.e: how portable you want it to be.

Of course there are sensible Windows machines out there. Just not in the ultrabook range yet. I quite like the upcoming Win8 ultrabook-tablet machines, but they get a little bit sluggish at the moment. Win8 ultrabooks at the moment they all look like MBAs without the battery. If the user wants a laptop at the moment and wants an ultrabook, an MBA is the best option. If the user can wait, I would suggest him to wait and see how these tablets/laptops go if he doesn't mind Win8.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:49 AM   #345
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Man they came out with retina like 3 years ago. It's amazing how long they can drag out one technology as next generation upgrades.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 06:55 PM   #346
I Am M3
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I want to know if I'll be screwed into having to buy from an all retina line, I don't need retina, I just want a regular 15 inch Mbp with anti glare, since I am wanting to become a music producer. The only reason I will wait is because of overall CPU etc... Performance and lower prices. Should I just buy my regular mbp now? I do not want be forced to buying all retina line... Will I be able to buy a regular antiglare Mbp even after the all retina line? If no then I will just buy one now, and avoid having to pay more for stupid retina!!! -LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS THINK : )
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 07:52 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athonline View Post
The new Haswell in an i3/i5 variation doesn't mean it will be better than an ivy bridge i7. Plus based on most reports, the new processors are more after power optimisation and not performance boost.

----------



Other than the Samsung 9 series, I didn't see any other notebook with factory specs similar to an Apple MBP, which isn't bulkier. If you want a desktop replacement, size doesn't matter that much, expect if you start looking at your other needs as well, i.e: how portable you want it to be.

Of course there are sensible Windows machines out there. Just not in the ultrabook range yet. I quite like the upcoming Win8 ultrabook-tablet machines, but they get a little bit sluggish at the moment. Win8 ultrabooks at the moment they all look like MBAs without the battery. If the user wants a laptop at the moment and wants an ultrabook, an MBA is the best option. If the user can wait, I would suggest him to wait and see how these tablets/laptops go if he doesn't mind Win8.
What about the Asus Zebook Prime? Or the Acer Aspire S7? I think both are serious contenders to the MacBook Air.
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 01:33 PM   #348
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iPad mini-Now or later?

I was about to get an iPad Mini in February. But, now I read of Apple updating it this year. Question is when? In March or Sept?
If March, I'll wait.
Apple really sucks when it comes to buying something that will outdated shortly after.
It's what the Japanese car builders do. By a car and, the next year's model is a little larger with a nicer design.
They make it hard to keep current.

And, if they put in a retina display, will that be an upgraded iPad Mini sold alongside the regular model? And will it cost more?
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 07:24 PM   #349
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I want to know if I'll be screwed into having to buy from an all retina line, I don't need retina, I just want a regular 15 inch Mbp with anti glare, since I am wanting to become a music producer. The only reason I will wait is because of overall CPU etc... Performance and lower prices. Should I just buy my regular mbp now? I do not want be forced to buying all retina line... Will I be able to buy a regular antiglare Mbp even after the all retina line? If no then I will just buy one now, and avoid having to pay more for stupid retina!!! -LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS THINK : )
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 08:26 PM   #350
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waiting for a 17inch Macbook Pro, hopefully with 32gb ram, and 512 SSD.
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