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Old Jan 18, 2013, 08:04 AM   #126
paulrbeers
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
What is the point in that? So my gun can now only hold 10 rounds. I just have a bunch of loaded clips in my pocket. It takes me less than 5 seconds to drop the clip out of my .45 and pull a full clip out and put it in. A little longer on my 30-06 but still under 10 seconds.

I'm shooting, you are hiding under a table...is that 5 second reload time going to help you?

NO

Why do people think that by limiting the clip capacity it is going to help anything? The shooter is not going to walk in with one clip and a box of rounds and stop to reload an empty clip in the middle of a shooting spree.

I don't know about you, but in 5-10 seconds, I can run across a classroom and tackle you..... Even at my most out of shape I could have done that.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 08:13 AM   #127
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I don't know about you, but in 5-10 seconds, I can run across a classroom and tackle you..... Even at my most out of shape I could have done that.
But first you have to realize the guy is changing magazines, then you need to get out from behind cover, and locate him. you doing all of this hoping he doesn't have a side arm or knife or doesn't notice you and just sidestep then shoot you.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 08:26 AM   #128
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But first you have to realize the guy is changing magazines, then you need to get out from behind cover, and locate him. you doing all of this hoping he doesn't have a side arm or knife or doesn't notice you and just sidestep then shoot you.
And he will need to make the decision to either continue reloading or stopping what he is doing and pull the knife out of its holster. And "finding him", I would know where the previous 10 shots came from would I not? Pretty sure when you are taking cover, you kind of need to know where the shots are coming from or else you are "hiding in plain sight".... 5-10 seconds is a LOT of time according to defense classes. A standard classroom is what 25' x 25'? That means at the farthest you would be from the shooter is about 37'. To cover 37' in 5 seconds means you only have to move at 5.3mph. That's a brisk walk dude....

Even if it takes me 2 seconds to realize he is reloading (which to me is a lot of time if your adrenaline is running at full speed), you still only have to cover that ground @ 8.4mph which for that short of distance is not difficult for an adult.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 08:50 AM   #129
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And he will need to make the decision to either continue reloading or stopping what he is doing and pull the knife out of its holster. And "finding him", I would know where the previous 10 shots came from would I not? Pretty sure when you are taking cover, you kind of need to know where the shots are coming from or else you are "hiding in plain sight".... 5-10 seconds is a LOT of time according to defense classes. A standard classroom is what 25' x 25'? That means at the farthest you would be from the shooter is about 37'. To cover 37' in 5 seconds means you only have to move at 5.3mph. That's a brisk walk dude....

Even if it takes me 2 seconds to realize he is reloading (which to me is a lot of time if your adrenaline is running at full speed), you still only have to cover that ground @ 8.4mph which for that short of distance is not difficult for an adult.
If the shooter is standing still you'll know.

In the perfect situation I would agree that you can make it across the room and tackle the guy.

I'm going to try to keep this short have you been in a contained pace with guns going off? It tends to disorient you and fill with smoke kinda quick. Now as everyone is falling to the ground to get out of the way chairs and desks are being knocked over, paper and pencils is hitting the ground kids are all akimbro and there will be blood and death none of these things are conducive to quickness.

This is another one of those situations where the intruder controls all the variables.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 08:56 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by paulrbeers View Post
I don't know about you, but in 5-10 seconds, I can run across a classroom and tackle you..... Even at my most out of shape I could have done that.
It takes me less than 3 seconds to replace an empty magazine. Competition shooters can do it in 1 second, no sweat. You will never tackle me from across a classroom, as I will be reloaded before you even realize my first magazine is empty.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:20 AM   #131
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If the shooter is standing still you'll know.

In the perfect situation I would agree that you can make it across the room and tackle the guy.

I'm going to try to keep this short have you been in a contained pace with guns going off? It tends to disorient you and fill with smoke kinda quick. Now as everyone is falling to the ground to get out of the way chairs and desks are being knocked over, paper and pencils is hitting the ground kids are all akimbro and there will be blood and death none of these things are conducive to quickness.

This is another one of those situations where the intruder controls all the variables.

You're also assuming that these guys committing these acts are some kind of trained killers as well. Generally speaking they have little to no experience. I guarantee you that whatever it takes them "normally" to reload will take double in this situation. That's the god's honest truth. Look at the Columbine and Newtown Connecticut. These are practically kids, not well trained individuals. If I was running at him, he'd probably freeze or fail to get the clip into the gun.....

They never take into consideration that someone might actually try to stop them.

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It takes me less than 3 seconds to replace an empty magazine. Competition shooters can do it in 1 second, no sweat. You will never tackle me from across a classroom, as I will be reloaded before you even realize my first magazine is empty.
See above..... P.S. 222K Bush administration bathroom.


P.S. I own a gun. A Beretta 92FS and 3 - 15 round mags. With precision I can generally drop my magazine and reload it in about 5 seconds. Anything less is hit or miss with me getting the magazine into the gun. Sure sometimes I can do it faster, but other times I miss and it takes longer. This is someone how has had said gun for years now. Not someone who grabbed his mommy's gun and went after some kids.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:23 AM   #132
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It takes me less than 3 seconds to replace an empty magazine. Competition shooters can do it in 1 second, no sweat. You will never tackle me from across a classroom, as I will be reloaded before you even realize my first magazine is empty.
I guess we know who the next school shooter is gonna be. Keep it classy.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:28 AM   #133
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It takes me less than 3 seconds to replace an empty magazine. Competition shooters can do it in 1 second, no sweat. You will never tackle me from across a classroom, as I will be reloaded before you even realize my first magazine is empty.
While I realize you're making hit and run comments, they do highlight on the fact that firearms experts are necessary if the government is attempting to draft efficient gun regulation.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:35 AM   #134
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It's your job to fix their runny nose or sore knee not to educate them. You are neither their guru or teacher you are a body mechanic a technician nothing more or less.
But most good mechanics believe in prevention.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:42 AM   #135
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It takes me less than 3 seconds to replace an empty magazine. Competition shooters can do it in 1 second, no sweat. You will never tackle me from across a classroom, as I will be reloaded before you even realize my first magazine is empty.
Require some kind of tool/screwdriver to remove a magazine, but not insert one. problem solved.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 11:40 AM   #136
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The more I read the contortions and insane rationalizations of the pro-gun crowd, the more anti-gun I become.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
I'm going to try to keep this short have you been in a contained pace with guns going off? It tends to disorient you and fill with smoke kinda quick. Now as everyone is falling to the ground to get out of the way chairs and desks are being knocked over, paper and pencils is hitting the ground kids are all akimbro and there will be blood and death none of these things are conducive to quickness.
Exactly why we need more people with guns.


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It takes me less than 3 seconds to replace an empty magazine. Competition shooters can do it in 1 second, no sweat. You will never tackle me from across a classroom, as I will be reloaded before you even realize my first magazine is empty.

You never disappoint, Mr. Witt.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:35 PM   #137
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Not sure where this is best posted but I'm going to leave it here.

I Have No Words

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I’m not going to characterize this or say anything about it. But I had to share it with you. From TPM Reader PH …


I read about your scary childhood experience and I had to leave work due to the sick feeling in my gut. The sick feeling has been building, maybe since Sandy Hook, but your story forced to write about something I had never written about before.

I accidentally killed my best friend when I was 15. Shot my best friend of eight years a week before we started high school. I was sitting in his room holding his rifle across my legs as he talked about how he had looked it up in some collectors guide and it was worth more than when he got it (Christmas or birthday or something). All the sudden there was a gigantic explosion and the rifle flew off my legs and I looked over as my friend fell over holding his gut and the whole world was tinted a hazy red.

It stayed tinted red for I don’t how long-weeks, months, a year? I sat through hours-maybe an entire day of getting the good cop/bad cop thing down at the police station:
“Did you know the gun was loaded?”-Of course not.

“Why was the gun loaded?”-I don’t know. I didn’t know it was loaded okay?

“Was the safety on?”-I don’t know, it’s all a haze. I can’t remember.

“Was your finger on the trigger? I mean that style of gun is hard to hold unless your finger is by the trigger.”- I don’t know, I don’t know, I mean it must have been, why would the gun go off if it wasn’t.

“Were you two arguing?”-Are you kidding? Of course not…

I don’t know what I said, and the actual events were a blur then and they are a blur now, but eventually they let me go to the hospital. My friend hung around for a couple days and I wandered around in my red, miserable, bad dream. He could squeeze my hand for a while. They let me cry for a while with his weird, bloated-looking body when he finally wasn’t hanging around and he wasn’t squeezing my hand.

There was a funeral. I think a day or two of school was cancelled. I stood there in a stupor, red-tinted, and hugged a million people. People knew we were best friends. My friend and I’s families hugged and cried a bunch; we promised to not be strangers ‘cuz I was still a member of their family (I visited them one more time).

Eventually I was back and school and I imagine people looked at me weird for a while; I was in such a daze I don’t really remember. There was never any sort of legal action. I went and saw some sort of therapist a couple times. They asked me some textbook questions and I gave them some short answers and I guess they were satisfied. I somehow got through that year doing normal activities and then the next one. At some point I wasn’t in the daze anymore, but nothing was ever the same. Over twenty years later I think about it at some point every single day.

So yeah, I don’t really want to be surrounded by people carrying guns. And it isn’t just that I had a terrible experience with guns. I also don’t want them around because I grew up with the Gun “Tribe”. Many of the loudest, baddest, sharpshot, ninja, gun-owners (and part-time Constitutional Scholars) I know are the biggest knuckleheads of my past:

There is the Facebook “friend” from high school who huffed a lot of gas and never got higher than a C in any class (especially history/social studies)? Yep, he is now an (unofficial) sniper in the anti-fascist militia and a legal expert. He changed his avatar to an AR-15. Now watch this Sandy Hook Truther video he just posted!

There is the uncle who has held like 80 different jobs, thought that removing lead from gasoline was Communism, and used to send me every paranoid conspiracy theory chain-email ever made until my mocking responses finally made him stop? Yep, finally got an (unpaid) job as Constitutional Scholar, varmit-destroyer, and protector of free society.

There is the cousin-in-law who got a job as a cop and then was quietly let go like two weeks later for reasons no one will tell me, and who now plays shoot-em up video games all day. His new milita-member duty is mocking people who call a “magazine” a “clip” and informing them that if they can’t name all the parts of weapon correctly, they have no business having opinions about it.
Don’t get me wrong. I grew up in small town Rocky Mountains. Everyone had guns, and they weren’t all like the characters above. Some people have a rifle they only pull out of a safe in hunting season. The problem is the characters above are the ones that have the 10 gun arsenals.

Writing this, I realize that a lot my sick feeling has to do with the gun control issue that is now on the table. I think of all the promising measures that have been proposed (I think limiting magazine size is the Holy Grail) and then I think about our terrible House of Representatives, Western Democratic Senators who want their gilded “A” ratings from the NRA (that “responsible” lobbying group who has a repeat poacher and admitted pedophile on their Board), and the millions of loud deadbeats (like the ones I list above) who don’t have anything better to do than scream at congressional aides over the phone. The thought of all this going very badly, and what the results of that could be, makes me sick to my stomach.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:43 PM   #138
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Not in the USA that I can remember (tv's)
That was actually a joke. European countries did have a van coming around checking aerials etc, but America had and still has FBI vans to check everyones cable.

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No meter reader would ever enter anyone's home unattended to read the meter
Wells does it all the time here, you even give them a house key.

You guys are way too paranoid. But then this thread more than proves that.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
It takes me less than 3 seconds to replace an empty magazine. Competition shooters can do it in 1 second, no sweat. You will never tackle me from across a classroom, as I will be reloaded before you even realize my first magazine is empty.
Because every psychopath has the training and experience needed to perform such acts of dexterity. I mean really, most men spend their teenage years jacking off but cant even pickup a gun without shaking like a coke head.

Besides, why tackle when throwing desks and children can be so much more effective.

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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:58 PM   #139
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Not sure where this is best posted but I'm going to leave it here.

I Have No Words
Not sure what point you are trying to make...but here is one..

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Laura and I had been inseparable since we were five years old. Physically, we couldn't have been more different. She was tall and willowy with straight blond hair; I was short with dark, curly hair. But growing up together, we loved the same music, watched the same movies and shared a similar sense of humour. We went to different universities that were nearby, stayed best friends and worked part-time together at a local restaurant.

One evening around that time, six years ago, I came home from work, ready for an early night. Until Laura called. "Come over," she pleaded. It was Saturday night, so I didn't need much convincing. I drove my Honda Civic to her halls of residence. We'd planned to go to a party on her campus but then decided to go clubbing. We cranked up the music while we got ready; laughing and taking silly photos of each other.

Laura's car was being repaired, so I drove to the nightclub 40 minutes away. Once inside, we were served with drinks, even though we were under the official age limit of 21. We ordered two vodka and Red Bulls and were also handed a shot – a mix of whisky, apple schnapps and cranberry juice. I've replayed those few minutes over in my head a million times since. Why did I accept those drinks, knowing I had to drive home? I didn't think it would be enough to affect me. By the time Laura and I left the club at 3am, after dancing for nearly four hours, I felt sober. It didn't occur to me, or Laura, that I might be unfit to drive.

On the way home, we had the radio blasting, and we were singing and laughing. That's my last memory of Laura. The next thing I knew, I was waking up in the driver's seat. The car was crumpled around me, the shattered windscreen inches from my face, which was sticky with blood. Looking over to the passenger seat I saw a blond woman, her face turned away from me. I had no idea who she was. "Are you OK?" I cried. She didn't respond. I tried to open my door, but it was jammed shut. "Help me," I screamed before passing out.

When I came round, there was a paramedic kneeling by my window. I couldn't understand why there were lots of people fussing around me but no one was helping the other girl. They cut the roof off my car, and pulled me from the wreckage. There was a massive gash in my head, and my left ear had been almost severed. I was rushed to hospital, where I heard a police officer describing a purse he'd found at the scene. "That's my best friend's bag," I exclaimed, and memory flooded back. "Is she OK?" I asked, and a police officer broke the news.

Mum tried to comfort me, but I was hysterical. "I killed her," I screamed. I have no memory of the crash, but apparently my car veered off the road and skidded down a slope, smashing into a tree. Although we were both wearing seatbelts, the roof had caved in, killing Laura instantly.

A blood sample taken at the time showed I was nearly one and a half times over the legal limit. I was released from hospital on my 19th birthday, the day of Laura's funeral. I desperately wanted to say goodbye to my best friend, but her parents told me I wasn't welcome. I apologised over and over, but they couldn't forgive me. I didn't blame them – I couldn't forgive myself either.

One month after the accident, I was charged with manslaughter while driving under the influence of alcohol. I pleaded not guilty. I wanted to accept responsibility for my part in Laura's death, but didn't see how anything could be gained by sending me to prison. Laura's parents disagreed and lobbied for me to receive a custodial sentence of up to 15 years.

Over the next two years, while waiting for my trial to start, I began speaking to schools and community groups about the dangers of driving under the influence of drugs and alcohol. I needed to know Laura's memory was being kept alive and that something positive was coming from her death. Finally, in May 2008, I accepted a plea bargain of four years in prison, followed by two years probation. This October, I was released, although I'll still be on probation for another two years.

I miss Laura so much – I know she paid the ultimate price and I have the rest of my life ahead of me. But I have to wake up every morning without my best friend, and the devastating knowledge that I killed her. That's my life sentence.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:03 PM   #140
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Not sure where this is best posted but I'm going to leave it here.

I Have No Words
I thought anecdotes were generally ridiculed here.

Edit: Ah, like here!
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Anecdotal. Meaningless on a scientific or statistical level.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:09 PM   #141
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I thought anecdotes were generally ridiculed here.

Edit: Ah, like here!

What the **** are you talking about? Was this posted as evidence of something?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:18 PM   #142
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What the **** are you talking about? Was this posted as evidence of something?
I wholeheartedly agree with anonymouslurker. This is the place for facts, not anecdotal stories.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:19 PM   #143
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What the **** are you talking about? Was this posted as evidence of something?
No, it was not evidence of something. So, the point of posting a sad anecdote was... what, exactly?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:20 PM   #144
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I thought anecdotes were generally ridiculed here.

Edit: Ah, like here!
Personal anecdotes as a response to population statistics are meaningless.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 03:46 PM   #145
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You're also assuming that these guys committing these acts are some kind of trained killers as well. Generally speaking they have little to no experience. I guarantee you that whatever it takes them "normally" to reload will take double in this situation. That's the god's honest truth. Look at the Columbine and Newtown Connecticut. These are practically kids, not well trained individuals. If I was running at him, he'd probably freeze or fail to get the clip into the gun.....

They never take into consideration that someone might actually try to stop them.
And who tackled them when they were reloading?

Oh yea....no one.

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The fact remains, he was stopped while trying to reload. You pro-gun people are amazing. You make an excuse for anything and everything except for the items in question, the guns.
That is incorrect. The veteran rushed the guy and hit him with a chair while he was still shooting. The vet was shot in the back of the head while doing so.



I guess I am an odd breed. One of the few conservative, pro second amendment Apple users. Boggle my mind. It's a gay man's RIGHT to get married and get the same tax funded benefits as anyone else, it's a woman's RIGHT to kill her unborn baby, it's a crack hoe's RIGHT to have 9 kids by 9 fathers and have the state pay for them, their food and their school...

But I don't have the right to have 11 bullets in my gun.

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Old Jan 18, 2013, 06:37 PM   #146
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Not sure where this is best posted but I'm going to leave it here.
I really think that guns have become the newest mancessory.

From the 50s well into the 80s, a fast, overpowered and generally unsafe car was enough to satisfy most testosterone surges. They were relatively inexpensive, could be cheaply modified, could be repaired in your own garage and gave men a certain freedom, even if it was mostly imaginary .

Now, cars are expensive, gas is expensive, insurance, repairs, etc, etc are expensive and can't be done in one's garage. Cars are also a lot safer because of people like Nader and the public in general. Who wants their kid to drive a car without airbags much less suicide doors?

So, thanks to the NRA, guns are cheap, available to everyone (anybody can buy a gun privately), require no training or license, and the proliferation of online discussion boards, everyone is an expert on guns.

The only problem is theNRA doesn't care about safety. It's a shame really. The Brady Campaign has gotten nowhere and I doubt the Giffords-Kelly effort will have any impact. The only thing that is going to change things is something along the Kent State Massacre.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 03:48 AM   #147
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Not sure what point you are trying to make...but here is one..
In that case the guy went to prison...
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:58 AM   #148
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Personal anecdotes as a response to population statistics are meaningless.
So your anecdote was meaningless, got it.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:17 AM   #149
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I guess I am an odd breed. One of the few conservative, pro second amendment Apple users. Boggle my mind. It's a gay man's RIGHT to get married and get the same tax funded benefits as anyone else, it's a woman's RIGHT to kill her unborn baby, it's a crack hoe's RIGHT to have 9 kids by 9 fathers and have the state pay for them, their food and their school...

But I don't have the right to have 11 bullets in my gun.
Wow... You're seriously comparing the right to an easier method to kill to an innocent gay marriage? There is no hope arguying with you.

Just a reminder, gay marriage has not killed a single human being in USA.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 12:18 PM   #150
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I guess I am an odd breed. One of the few conservative, pro second amendment Apple users. Boggle my mind. It's a gay man's RIGHT to get married and get the same tax funded benefits as anyone else, it's a woman's RIGHT to kill her unborn baby, it's a crack hoe's RIGHT to have 9 kids by 9 fathers and have the state pay for them, their food and their school...

But I don't have the right to have 11 bullets in my gun.

That's some world you live in. smh.
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