Lance Armstrong at center of doping program

[Kurwenal]

Originally Posted by peeaanuut

If you go by the "rules he agreed to play by" argument, then it stands to reason that the rules included this or that test at the time. Sure, could he fail a test now if the tests are better? Very possible, but at that time, the tests did not find anything out of compliance. Why doesnt everyone have to play by the same rules?

Have you even read the rules? They do not say "don't fail a drug test." They say "don't take EPO."

[toontra]

Originally Posted by peeaanuut

its aparent that the band wagon is strong with this group. Im gonna move on.

I think that's for the best - you have nothing to contribute other than blind loyalty in the face of all the evidence and that doesn't make for a stimulating discussion. Good to see the US conspiracists and denialists are alive and well and STILL posting in this forum

[niuniu]

Anyone that self-righteous has a lot to hide. After seeing what he did to Simeoni I was certain of one thing, that Lance is a massive tosser.

[Don't panic]

to me the Simeoni bullying was the turnaround moment.
one of the most nauseating 'sporting' events i ever had the misfortune to witness.


here is a link to a 2004 Macrumors thread on the TDF when that occurred. boy was i pissed!

[Ugg]

Originally Posted by Don't panic

to me the Simeoni bullying was the turnaround moment.
one of the most nauseating 'sporting' events i ever had the misfortune to witness.


here is a link to a 2004 Macrumors thread on the TDF when that occurred. boy was i pissed!

Reading that thread was almost embarrassing. So many apologists for Lance and so many posters skewered Simeoni as well as the French in general.

I honestly don't know how Lance can live with himself. He was such a nasty, nasty person. The more I read, the more it makes me sick to my stomach that so many Americans defended him to the utmost simply because he was "one of ours' beating the French at their own game. I hope he spends time in jail for perjury.

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

For those of us who don't follow cycling: how many of the 2004 leaders eventually turned out to be doping?

I noticed this in the BBC news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20051664

A cyclist, Mark Cavendish, makes the claim that cycling is now the cleanest sport. Again, I don't really follow this, so pardon my ignorance, but, how much testing is done in the European soccer leagues?

[Don't panic]

Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk

For those of us who don't follow cycling: how many of the 2004 leaders eventually turned out to be doping?

pretty much all of them were implicated with some sort of doping at some point in their career. we don't know who did what in a specific time, which is why the titles shouldn't be reassigned (IMO) but just cancelled.

[niuniu]

Mark Cavendish on the news yesterday saying that cycling is the cleanest sport he knows

[Blue Velvet]

Originally Posted by iGav

And that is likely the nearest the world will come to hearing an admission of guilt from him.

Some reaction from The Guardian:

Oprah now moves into questioning Armstrong about the testimony of Hamilton and Landis about the alleged cover-up of a "positive" test in the Tour de Suisse. This is important because it involves allegations of corruption against UCI officials.

In short, Armstrong denies the entire story. That's a stretch because he's denying that a meeting took place with the testing lab director Martial Saugy that Saugy has admitted happened.

However, the important thing here is that Armstrong is holding his cards close to his chest. What he knows he is keeping back because it may be useful in negotiations with Usada in future. And he knows this stuff is very 'inside baseball' for most people watching.

Oprah is proving a real disappointment here. She's too happy to accept shame as the main currency of this interview, when what we really need are details.
She hasn't pressed him on Ferrari, she hasn't pressed him on lying under oath, even when she showed a video of him doing exactly that.

I'd love to see Tyler Hamilton sitting in Oprah's chair right now. Now that would be a show.

The compromise that Oprah has made here is becoming apparent: Armstrong should have been arraigned in front of a court of arbitration for sport, and possibly a federal court. But with Oprah as the investigative magistrate, Armstrong gets to play to a jury of millions of viewers and do a perfectly plausible impression of a flawed human being who's genuinely sorry for being "an arrogant prick".

And when they hear that, a lot of people will acquit him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013...view-live-blog

[iGav]

Originally Posted by Blue Velvet

Hahahahahaha, you know Blue, I was thinking about that very comment this morning when I was seeing coverage of the Armstrong interview on the news.

Thankfully I didn't say I'd eat my hat or anything.

[yg17]

Who cares? It's cycling. I wasn't aware anyone actually watched that. Strip the guy of his awards and move on to more important news stories like the Kardashian baby or the latest in the Lindsay Lohan saga.

[eric/]

He did it, even admitted so.

But I do not like the idea that passing tests isn't enough, and that the anti-doping agency (a NGO btw) is granted broad authority to test and make determinations, go through athlete's trash even.

[ChristianJapan]

I think it was called "Tour de Farce" since years; so why are we surprised there is lots doping involved ?

The problem with doping test (to my limited) understanding is that you need to know what you are testing for; if there are newer doping methods around they are not easy to find (similar as diagnostic in medicine).

[Ugg]

It pains me to see so many people trashing the sport of bicycle racing. What about LeMond or Merckx and all the other truly amazing riders who came before Lance? Cycling is a sport of endurance like no other and requires an incredible level of devotion and effort. What Lance brought to the sport was evasion, corruption and an ego that is all important even to the point of destroying dozens of other riders and officials.

I don't know how many people I've discussed the issue with, but the sportier types have all sided with Lance and trashed the French racing officials as well as Lance's teammates and fellow riders. What makes people believe him so strongly?

Lance's mea culpa was anything but and he just proved once again that the only thing that matters is Lance and everyone else be damned.

[Happybunny]

Originally Posted by yg17

Who cares? It's cycling. I wasn't aware anyone actually watched that. Strip the guy of his awards and move on to more important news stories like the Kardashian baby or the latest in the Lindsay Lohan saga.

I do think that Cycling is on a knife edge, one more major scandal, and I'll join you watching that Icon of American Culture Honey Boo Boo.

Originally Posted by Ugg

It pains me to see so many people trashing the sport of bicycle racing. What about LeMond or Merckx and all the other truly amazing riders who came before Lance? Cycling is a sport of endurance like no other and requires an incredible level of devotion and effort. What Lance brought to the sport was evasion, corruption and an ego that is all important even to the point of destroying dozens of other riders and officials.

I don't know how many people I've discussed the issue with, but the sportier types have all sided with Lance and trashed the French racing officials as well as Lance's teammates and fellow riders. What makes people believe him so strongly?

Lance's mea culpa was anything but and he just proved once again that the only thing that matters is Lance and everyone else be damned.

As I posted on number 72.

Greg LeMond win was the greatest climax to any Tour de France in living memory. 8 seconds difference in more than 3800 kms nothing will top that.

I have heard that this admission of guilty was to try to rehabilitate Lance and the sport, well I can tell you for nothing here in Europe that will not happen.
___________

[Charcoalwerks]

"Doping" is touchy subject in any Professional sport. I've always felt that Pro's should be able to take whatever they want as far as PED's go. They make enough money, if they are willing to risk health implications pushing the human body to the limit, good for them.

Now, before you start calling me an uncaring idiot, I do realize that the major negative to this aspect is the college and high school levels of sports and the need of kids to want to be the best. This is really the only downside I can see. Having done a few cycles of steroids myself, there is a huge risk involved if proper research and medical advice isn't taken into consideration. Before and after cycles I would always have blood work done to make sure my cholesterol and liver functions remained normal.

One of the golden rules of anabolic steroid use is that you do NOT touch them until you are at least 25 years of age. By that time your growth plates have already closed, and if there is any doubt you have a doctor make sure. Therefore I believe that all drug testing should be very strict for college and high school level sports. I could care less which Pro's are or are not using. I mean hell, look at the IFBB competitions. Does anyone really care if these guys are juicing? Hell no!

[Huntn]

Originally Posted by Charcoalwerks

"Doping" is touchy subject in any Professional sport. I've always felt that Pro's should be able to take whatever they want as far as PED's go. They make enough money, if they are willing to risk health implications pushing the human body to the limit, good for them.

All sports are regulated, example golf, baseball- the type of clubs and balls that meet regulations. Stopping athletes from using performance enhancing drugs is a good thing imo, whether or not it adversely effects your health.

[Lord Blackadder]

I was an enthusiastic teenage cyclist when Lance Armstrong won his first TdF. He and others like Jan Ullrich were sporting heroes of sorts to me, and their exposure as cheats and frauds completely soured me on cycling. I've barely paid attention to it since (though I still ride). Pretty much every cyclist of my own era who I've ever admired has been caught or implicated in doping activity. It simply destroyed the sport for me.

But Armstrong is worse than just a cheater; he is arrogant and I still question whether he is the slightest bit sorry for anything he has done. The best thing he could do at this point is be 100% honest about what he has done and never mount a bike in a professional race again.

Originally Posted by Happybunny

I have heard that this admission of guilty was to try to rehabilitate Lance and the sport, well I can tell you for nothing here in Europe that will not happen.
___________

He's delusional if he thinks he can rehabilitate his image.

Originally Posted by Charcoalwerks

"Doping" is touchy subject in any Professional sport. I've always felt that Pro's should be able to take whatever they want as far as PED's go. They make enough money, if they are willing to risk health implications pushing the human body to the limit, good for them.

Now, before you start calling me an uncaring idiot, I do realize that the major negative to this aspect is the college and high school levels of sports and the need of kids to want to be the best. This is really the only downside I can see. Having done a few cycles of steroids myself, there is a huge risk involved if proper research and medical advice isn't taken into consideration. Before and after cycles I would always have blood work done to make sure my cholesterol and liver functions remained normal.

One of the golden rules of anabolic steroid use is that you do NOT touch them until you are at least 25 years of age. By that time your growth plates have already closed, and if there is any doubt you have a doctor make sure. Therefore I believe that all drug testing should be very strict for college and high school level sports. I could care less which Pro's are or are not using. I mean hell, look at the IFBB competitions. Does anyone really care if these guys are juicing? Hell no!

My personal opinion is that professional sports should be 100% against PED. Of course, any medication or medical procedure could have performance-enhancing side effects (and even natural events such as pregnancy can as well), so there is no perfect line of demarcation.

The point about age you made is critical, especially juxtaposed against your 25 year old age limit. Most of the top athletes in the world have theoir breakout seasons before they are 25 - usually it's somewhere between 16-20. But under your system they'd have to be clean, and yet compete in professional sports against 25+ year old athletes who are on steroids or EPO or what have you. I don't see that working out at all.

I just can't see PED use in professional sports as anything other than cheating. Perhaps it will become the norm in some areas, like you said, bodybuilding will be "juiced" forever no matter how much people try to stop it. But even if that is the case, I still can't see the majority of sports accepting it. It just sounds fundamentally unsportsmanlike to me.

[Happybunny]

Originally Posted by Charcoalwerks

"Doping" is touchy subject in any Professional sport. I've always felt that Pro's should be able to take whatever they want as far as PED's go. They make enough money, if they are willing to risk health implications pushing the human body to the limit, good for them.

Now, before you start calling me an uncaring idiot, I do realize that the major negative to this aspect is the college and high school levels of sports and the need of kids to want to be the best. This is really the only downside I can see. Having done a few cycles of steroids myself, there is a huge risk involved if proper research and medical advice isn't taken into consideration. Before and after cycles I would always have blood work done to make sure my cholesterol and liver functions remained normal.

One of the golden rules of anabolic steroid use is that you do NOT touch them until you are at least 25 years of age. By that time your growth plates have already closed, and if there is any doubt you have a doctor make sure. Therefore I believe that all drug testing should be very strict for college and high school level sports. I could care less which Pro's are or are not using. I mean hell, look at the IFBB competitions. Does anyone really care if these guys are juicing? Hell no!

It's just that type of attitude that is so wide spread in the USA, that makes me want to have all American teams from all sports banned from all International Events.

[Huntn]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

It's just that type of attitude that is so wide spread in the USA, that makes me want to have all American teams from all sports banned from all International Events.

That attitude is widespread in the US?

[184550]

Originally Posted by Huntn

That attitude is widespread in the US?

News to me as well. I'd love to see some figures.

[Happybunny]

Originally Posted by Huntn

That attitude is widespread in the US?

Originally Posted by NathanMuir

News to me as well. I'd love to see some figures.

It men like Barry Bonds and known Juicer, but this records still stand in baseball.
Unlike Pete Rose who lost everything about gambling.

The USA has become like the DDR and the old USSR. It is like the ends justify the means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds

[Charcoalwerks]

Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder

The point about age you made is critical, especially juxtaposed against your 25 year old age limit. Most of the top athletes in the world have theoir breakout seasons before they are 25 - usually it's somewhere between 16-20. But under your system they'd have to be clean, and yet compete in professional sports against 25+ year old athletes who are on steroids or EPO or what have you. I don't see that working out at all.

I just can't see PED use in professional sports as anything other than cheating. Perhaps it will become the norm in some areas, like you said, bodybuilding will be "juiced" forever no matter how much people try to stop it. But even if that is the case, I still can't see the majority of sports accepting it. It just sounds fundamentally unsportsmanlike to me.

That's a great point. Mid to late 20's is when most Pro football players decline in performance (mostly depending on position). PED's help bring back the edge and maintain, even increase strength. I just don't see the need for such strict enforcement at the Pro level. Maybe a "don't ask don't tell" policy?
Besides, steroids aren't some magic pill that makes you incredible. It still involves intense training to have any kind of results. Some restrictions are ridiculous. If I can walk into a GNC and buy a product and take it, so should any Professional athlete.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder

I just can't see PED use in professional sports as anything other than cheating. Perhaps it will become the norm in some areas, like you said, bodybuilding will be "juiced" forever no matter how much people try to stop it. But even if that is the case, I still can't see the majority of sports accepting it. It just sounds fundamentally unsportsmanlike to me.

Really though, it all comes down to arbitrary limits. Should we not allow basketball players over a certain height? Should Phelps not have been allowed to compete because his feet are gigantic? Should everybody have to use the same bike?

I personally don't really care for performance enhancing drugs, but I think the general underlying sentiment and hatred toward it is a bit undeserved because what all of this really comes down to is this simple fact:

all sports are arbitrary games consisting of arbitrary rules

So if a sport allows PEDs, great, I don't care any more or less than if that sport doesn't allow them.

[Moyank24]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

It men like Barry Bonds and known Juicer, but this records still stand in baseball.
Unlike Pete Rose who losed everything about gambling.

The USA has become like the DDR and the old USSR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds

Pete Rose has been banned from baseball, but his records still stand (He is still the all-time hits leader). The agreement he made won't allow him to be eligible for the Hall of Fame - but at this point Bonds isn't getting in anytime soon either. He was on the ballot for the first time this year and got barely a sniff - at this point in time, that's his punishment.

It's a hard case, and one that as a baseball fan is hard to get - but at the time of lot of those guys used it wasn't illegal. Pete Rose was gambling on baseball which was illegal at the time.