Thunderbolt Adoption Reportedly Slowed by Intel's Licensing and Certification, But Improvements Coming

repoman27 · Jan 20, 2013

GermanyChris said:
and the 95% Gamut display, 16x9 being the standard (1920x1080) and Matt, nice to see you discount any graphics which are important in a computer where they are non-replaceable, 20 hr battery life that in the real world drops to 17, express card, external power, 720p Camera with face tracking, finger print unlock, a VGA port (handy for me), internal RAID supported by Lenovo, mobile broadband this is a pro computer

If you want sexy they also have that covered with the x1 Carbon.

When Apple EOL'd the 17" which was the last computer to have an express card slot they EOL'd the idea that MBP's are Pro. That is not to say that you cannot do professional work, but pro in the respect that you can buy a mobile power house and expect to keep it and have it expand and contract with your work. It's great for Apple bad for everyone else.

Personal rant: I use eSATA on the MP for external storage it's an industry standard and it's fast right now I have an eSATA express card that is no longer an option with a Mac which means that I'll get an Elite Book or one of thiose Lenovo's being that my portable will need replaced sooner than the MP..

I forgot the mobile broadband option, that's another totally legit plus for the Lenovo.

I wasn't discounting the graphics at all, I said from the get go that Apple has never done workstation or gaming class graphics in a notebook. The 95% gamut is hard to gauge because they never specify which gamut they're referring to, but in any event it is a least equalled by the MBPR's display. And 16:9 is a detriment, not a bonus, unless you're watching TV.

The capabilities afforded by Thunderbolt destroy those of ExpressCard. Get a Sonnet Echo Pro for $174 and you can use any of your existing ExpressCards. Get an Atto 6Gb/s SAS/SATA adapter and you can have way more eSATA throughput than any other notebook solution in existence.

GermanyChris · Jan 20, 2013

repoman27 said:
I forgot the mobile broadband option, that's another totally legit plus for the Lenovo.

I wasn't discounting the graphics at all, I said from the get go that Apple has never done workstation or gaming class graphics in a notebook. The 95% gamut is hard to gauge because they never specify which gamut they're referring to, but in any event it is a least equalled by the MBPR's display. And 16:9 is a detriment, not a bonus, unless you're watching TV.

The capabilities afforded by Thunderbolt destroy those of ExpressCard. Get a Sonnet Echo Pro for $174 and you can use any of your existing ExpressCards. Get an Atto 6Gb/s SAS/SATA adapter and you can have way more eSATA throughput than any other notebook solution in existence.

I don't need desktop solutions that stuff is covered, I want mobile solutions since this is a mobile thread.

LOL in a thread talking about slow adoption of TB..But yes the potential is there to be better but express cards fit inside in a nice neat package..Apple is going to dongle us to death.

toke lahti · Jan 20, 2013

repoman27 said:
The regular MacBook Pros may not have gotten a complete redesign in 2012, but there is nothing "old" about them. The 13-inch MacBook Pro is still the top-selling Mac model, so I'm not sure why you'd be reluctant to purchase the model that has most of the features you're looking for.

It's pretty comical to suggest you have a choice about TN vs IPS in notebook PCs. Go ahead and list every notebook you can buy that has a better screen than what's available in the current Mac line-up, it shouldn't take very long.

Anti-glare coatings create a blurring effect. Why would you do that to the highest resolution displays ever to be put in a notebook? Bonded glass is the way things are going and it is not a bad solution. If you do color work, why the heck are you doing it in a room with light sources strong enough to be an issue?

ExpressCard slots were only ever found on 15-inch and 17-inch MBPs. Now all new Macs have Thunderbolt, so for $174 you can get an Echo Pro and read cards at full speed on any Mac whenever you care to.

toke, you complain a lot about the shortcomings of the current Mac lineup. I don't see anything wrong with holding Apple to a high standard and constantly asking for more improvements. And not that the laziness or failures of others should exonerate Apple in any way, but who else is pushing the PC industry as hard as Apple right now? I do realize a fair number of creatives are switching to commodity PC's because of the lack of a solid Mac tower solution or compelling software to differentiate Mac OS, but have you used Windows 8 on a desktop machine? It is also less than stellar. I guess it's just that in the iOS vs Android religious war, there are a lot of devices that are giving Apple a serious run for their money. In the notebook, all-in-one and USFF arena though, who is making better gear than Apple at the moment?

It is widely repeated misinformation that high pixel density screens can't be matte. Matte coating can easily have so small structure, that it doesn't decrease the real perceived resolution. If somebody complains that the sub-pixels wouldn't have straight edges, that has nothing to do with real resolution.

I'm writing this with 17" fullHD matte screen and for my next macbook I want to have at least 2 of these 3 features. Laptops are used in the field, so you can't control the lights. And it's not about how strong the light sources are. It's just that sharp reflections are annoying. With modern screen brightness, if you put half of the screen white and other half black, you can watch your own face from the screen just by the illumination from the screen.

The world is changing and if you question why I will not buy any new 6-bit TN screen with narrow gamut as "almost best that industry offers", I'll answer that I want quality, even from Apple. There are high quality IPS screens in laptops, so why buy old low quality? Even ipad has better screen than these "classic" mbp's...

I didn't realize that Echo Pro is so affordable, but since I have some experience with my macbooks EC slot, I'm not very interested about EC cards anymore. After Apple ditched EC slot from 15" MBP (which was their best selling model at the time), EC cards driver support for OsX has dropped badly and I don't believe Echo Pro can do much about it now that 17" is axed.

Btw, can you point any esata EC, that supports multiple vendors enclosures, has real drivers, where you can monitor hdd's SMART and costs less than a hundred?

I think it would be best for all if Apple just licensed OsX out and then everybody could choose the right balance between expandability and reliablity by themselves.

repoman27 · Jan 21, 2013

GermanyChris said:
I don't need desktop solutions that stuff is covered, I want mobile solutions since this is a mobile thread.

LOL in a thread talking about slow adoption of TB..But yes the potential is there to be better but express cards fit inside in a nice neat package..Apple is going to dongle us to death.

Oh, right. You don't want the capabilities of a desktop in a mobile workstation... Isn't that the whole point? How is the Echo Pro (small, bus powered, weighs much less than the 9-cell battery option on the Lenovo) not a mobile solution? How about the LaCie Thunderbolt eSATA hub then, if the Atto is too much for you? And what is more mobile about your current eSATA setup? What are you plugging into that ExpressCard?

Apple has gone a bit out of control with the dongle/adapter thing, but in the end, ExpressCard is a big useless hole in a notebook that could be used for something else if there's no card in it (as opposed to the small useless hole that is Thunderbolt). The Apple Thunderbolt GbE and FireWire adapters are smaller, lighter and cost no more than equivalent ExpressCards. If we could get similar $29 Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 or eSATA adapters, why would anyone be compelled to stick with ExpressCard?

I also forgot to mention that all MacBooks have 720p FaceTime HD cameras these days. Plus dual-radio WiFi with 3x3 MIMO, Bluetooth 4.0, features such as AirDrop, AirPlay and Power Nap, good keyboards, excellent trackpads, batteries rated for considerably more charge/discharge cycles, MagSafe (although this also prevents the use of 3rd party power accessories), PCIe connected SDXC card readers with UHS-I support (although they rarely work due to a stupid mechanical issue), and digital/analog audio line in/out on the 15-inch MBP.

toke lahti said:
It is widely repeated misinformation that high pixel density screens can't be matte. Matte coating can easily have so small structure, that it doesn't decrease the real perceived resolution. If somebody complains that the sub-pixels wouldn't have straight edges, that has nothing to do with real resolution.

I'm writing this with 17" fullHD matte screen and for my next macbook I want to have at least 2 of these 3 features. Laptops are used in the field, so you can't control the lights. And it's not about how strong the light sources are. It's just that sharp reflections are annoying. With modern screen brightness, if you put half of the screen white and other half black, you can watch your own face from the screen just by the illumination from the screen.

The world is changing and if you question why I will not buy any new 6-bit TN screen with narrow gamut as "almost best that industry offers", I'll answer that I want quality, even from Apple. There are high quality IPS screens in laptops, so why buy old low quality? Even ipad has better screen than these "classic" mbp's...

I didn't realize that Echo Pro is so affordable, but since I have some experience with my macbooks EC slot, I'm not very interested about EC cards anymore. After Apple ditched EC slot from 15" MBP (which was their best selling model at the time), EC cards driver support for OsX has dropped badly and I don't believe Echo Pro can do much about it now that 17" is axed.

Btw, can you point any esata EC, that supports multiple vendors enclosures, has real drivers, where you can monitor hdd's SMART and costs less than a hundred?

I think it would be best for all if Apple just licensed OsX out and then everybody could choose the right balance between expandability and reliablity by themselves.

I think pretty much any eSATA ExpressCard will work with a Mac, but will only show up as a generic AHCI interface. If you want all the bells and whistles (i.e. driver support) and eSATA 6 Gb/s with a PCIe 2.0 back end, you'll need to overpay it seems. The FirmTek SeriTek/6G for $120 would most likely be the best bet for overall performance.

GermanyChris · Jan 21, 2013

repoman27 said:
Oh, right. You don't want the capabilities of a desktop in a mobile workstation... Isn't that the whole point? How is the Echo Pro (small, bus powered, weighs much less than the 9-cell battery option on the Lenovo) not a mobile solution? How about the LaCie Thunderbolt eSATA hub then, if the Atto is too much for you? And what is more mobile about your current eSATA setup? What are you plugging into that ExpressCard?

Apple has gone a bit out of control with the dongle/adapter thing, but in the end, ExpressCard is a big useless hole in a notebook that could be used for something else if there's no card in it (as opposed to the small useless hole that is Thunderbolt). The Apple Thunderbolt GbE and FireWire adapters are smaller, lighter and cost no more than equivalent ExpressCards. If we could get similar $29 Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 or eSATA adapters, why would anyone be compelled to stick with ExpressCard?

I also forgot to mention that all MacBooks have 720p FaceTime HD cameras these days. Plus dual-radio WiFi with 3x3 MIMO, Bluetooth 4.0, features such as AirDrop, AirPlay and Power Nap, good keyboards, excellent trackpads, batteries rated for considerably more charge/discharge cycles, MagSafe (although this also prevents the use of 3rd party power accessories), PCIe connected SDXC card readers with UHS-I support (although they rarely work due to a stupid mechanical issue), and digital/analog audio line in/out on the 15-inch MBP.

I think pretty much any eSATA ExpressCard will work with a Mac, but will only show up as a generic AHCI interface. If you want all the bells and whistles (i.e. driver support) and eSATA 6 Gb/s with a PCIe 2.0 back end, you'll need to overpay it seems. The FirmTek SeriTek/6G for $120 would most likely be the best bet for overall performance.

What you brought up was a SAS card. I was pretty much the only person who thought that dock was a good idea but I don't thing I'd take it with me. The camera on the Lenovo has face tracking software along with everything else you listed minus airily and air drop. Power nap is an Intel thing and is every z77 chipset.

repoman27 · Jan 21, 2013

GermanyChris said:
What you brought up was a SAS card. I was pretty much the only person who thought that dock was a good idea but I don't thing I'd take it with me. The camera on the Lenovo has face tracking software along with everything else you listed minus airily and air drop. Power nap is an Intel thing and is every z77 chipset.

I thought we were talking pro and not consumer.

And you can use the Atto ThunderLink SH 1068 as an 8-port eSATA interface with regular SATA drives if you like. Not the cheapest solution, mind you, but definitely a capable one. Apple's FaceTime is pretty decent, but I've not used the Lenovo and wouldn't really know how to compare the two as far as ISP goes.

Power Nap is Apple's implementation of connected standby which is similar to Intel's Smart Connect. It has nothing to do with Z77 though. Smart Connect requires an Intel Core processor, Intel wireless solution, BIOS/UEFI support and Windows 7/8 drivers and software among other things. The Lenovo probably can do WiDi or Miracast which is similar to AirPlay. AirDrop is still fairly unique. My point was that Apple is generally able to integrate hardware dependent features like those earlier and more seamlessly than the competition. Same goes for Apple's graphics switching vs NVIDIA Optimus or AMD Enduro, and Fusion Drive vs ReadyBoost or Intel Smart Response Technology (although Fusion Drive was much later to market, it still works far better).

toke lahti · Jan 21, 2013

repoman27 said:
Oh, right. You don't want the capabilities of a desktop in a mobile workstation... Isn't that the whole point? How is the Echo Pro (small, bus powered, weighs much less than the 9-cell battery option on the Lenovo) not a mobile solution? How about the LaCie Thunderbolt eSATA hub then, if the Atto is too much for you? And what is more mobile about your current eSATA setup? What are you plugging into that ExpressCard?

Apple has gone a bit out of control with the dongle/adapter thing, but in the end, ExpressCard is a big useless hole in a notebook that could be used for something else if there's no card in it (as opposed to the small useless hole that is Thunderbolt). The Apple Thunderbolt GbE and FireWire adapters are smaller, lighter and cost no more than equivalent ExpressCards. If we could get similar $29 Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 or eSATA adapters, why would anyone be compelled to stick with ExpressCard?[...]and digital/analog audio line in/out on the 15-inch MBP.

I think pretty much any eSATA ExpressCard will work with a Mac, but will only show up as a generic AHCI interface. If you want all the bells and whistles (i.e. driver support) and eSATA 6 Gb/s with a PCIe 2.0 back end, you'll need to overpay it seems. The FirmTek SeriTek/6G for $120 would most likely be the best bet for overall performance.

Well, many of us would just want the capabilities of a desktop in a desktop mac. TB is pretty darn expensive way to do that and gets us only half way. Care to count how many pcie lines a normal desktop has compared to what even dual TB ports offer?

But what if I'd just like to have same capabilities in new rMBP than what I already have in my old 17". I'd need:
1. Echo pro (even the pro version doesn't have second TB port for daisy-chain)
2. TB-to-fw dongle
3. usb-to-GbE
4. usb hub (old has 3 usb ports, new only 1 free)
5. TB switch (still vaporware) to use displayport to 2560x1440 monitor
6. external superdrive
or
7. TB sdd enclosure if I'd replace old MBP's odd with ssd for Fusion drive (I'm not sure if TB would even work with this, but then I'd have to glue that ssd to mbp to keep it running all times.)
8. usb audio card to get line-in

So, to get all of this, you can easily add 50% to the price of rMBP and to carry it with you, it really becomes "a bag of hurt" compared to old MBP, which all of a sudden seems like super-all-in-one. I wouldn't call this progress just to get few millimeters shaved from laptop's thickness.

And btw, EC is empty hole just like sd-card reader, only about 10x more versatile.

Also, I wouldn't call wanting esata work as it natively should "bells and whistles". Somehow all the other computers with esata just work like they should. If you are not aware of esata EC incompatibilities with macs, just check out OWC's product pages. They list pretty complete lists about witch works and which don't. No easy way out here.

If Apple had cared about TB being useful for all these non-daisy-chainable devices, they would have released a TB switch at the same time with macs with TB. Maybe they even think they did and the switch is called ATBD...

repoman27 · Jan 21, 2013

toke lahti said:
Well, many of us would just want the capabilities of a desktop in a desktop mac. TB is pretty darn expensive way to do that and gets us only half way. Care to count how many pcie lines a normal desktop has compared to what even dual TB ports offer?

Thunderbolt has as much PCIe bandwidth as the PCH does, so the only way a "normal" (read Intel LGA 1155) desktop has more available PCIe lanes is if you have a chipset capable of splitting the 16 PEG lanes and choose not to use them all for a dGPU.

But what if I'd just like to have same capabilities in new rMBP than what I already have in my old 17". I'd need:
1. Echo pro (even the pro version doesn't have second TB port for daisy-chain)
2. TB-to-fw dongle
3. usb-to-GbE
4. usb hub (old has 3 usb ports, new only 1 free)
5. TB switch (still vaporware) to use displayport to 2560x1440 monitor
6. external superdrive
or
7. TB sdd enclosure if I'd replace old MBP's odd with ssd for Fusion drive (I'm not sure if TB would even work with this, but then I'd have to glue that ssd to mbp to keep it running all times.)
8. usb audio card to get line-in

So, to get all of this, you can easily add 50% to the price of rMBP and to carry it with you, it really becomes "a bag of hurt" compared to old MBP, which all of a sudden seems like super-all-in-one. I wouldn't call this progress just to get few millimeters shaved from laptop's thickness.

A MBPR plus ATD, Echo Pro, USB SuperDrive, and USB audio interface would get you all the way there. Fusion Drive does not make a lot of sense on a system where the primary storage is already NAND flash. Not a cheap setup, but you could also sub $29 Thunderbolt to GbE/FW adapters and an existing display for the ATD and just plug things in when you actually need them instead of trying to do it all at once. Then again, how much would it cost to put a 2880x1800 IPS display, NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M, Core i7 3820QM, Intel integrated USB 3.0 controller, HDMI port, 2nd Thunderbolt port, 768 GB Samsung PM830 SSD, 16 GB of DDR3L-1600 RAM, and Bluetooth 4.0 into your 17-inch MacBook Pro?

And btw, EC is empty hole just like sd-card reader, only about 10x more versatile.

Except it is a WAYYY smaller hole that is used way more frequently by way more people.

Also, I wouldn't call wanting esata work as it natively should "bells and whistles". Somehow all the other computers with esata just work like they should. If you are not aware of esata EC incompatibilities with macs, just check out OWC's product pages. They list pretty complete lists about witch works and which don't. No easy way out here.

If Apple had cared about TB being useful for all these non-daisy-chainable devices, they would have released a TB switch at the same time with macs with TB. Maybe they even think they did and the switch is called ATBD...

The only SATA controller that has ever been native on a Mac is the one in the PCH/southbridge. Not surprisingly, this is the only one they really provide a full fledged driver for in Mac OS. (Well, and the RAID controller for the Mac Pro, I suppose.) If third parties create an add-in SATA/eSATA controller, it's up to them to provide a working driver if they want to claim Mac compatibility. This is not really an Apple problem, is it?

If Apple had provided a Thunderbolt switch from day one, you would still be complaining. Probably even more so due to the $650-$850 price tag.

toke lahti · Jan 22, 2013

repoman27 said:
Thunderbolt has as much PCIe bandwidth as the PCH does, so the only way a "normal" (read Intel LGA 1155) desktop has more available PCIe lanes is if you have a chipset capable of splitting the 16 PEG lanes and choose not to use them all for a dGPU.

TB equals 4xPCIe2.0.
"Normal" motherboard has 20-30 lanes of PCIe. Those which has PCIe3.0 can double the bandwidth. I once wrote in these threads that to have same bandwidth that basic middle class desktop offers, you'd have to have 20 TB sockets around your mac.

repoman27 said:
A MBPR plus ATD, Echo Pro, USB SuperDrive, and USB audio interface would get you all the way there. Fusion Drive does not make a lot of sense on a system where the primary storage is already NAND flash. Not a cheap setup, but you could also sub $29 Thunderbolt to GbE/FW adapters and an existing display for the ATD and just plug things in when you actually need them instead of trying to do it all at once. Then again, how much would it cost to put a 2880x1800 IPS display, NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M, Core i7 3820QM, Intel integrated USB 3.0 controller, HDMI port, 2nd Thunderbolt port, 768 GB Samsung PM830 SSD, 16 GB of DDR3L-1600 RAM, and Bluetooth 4.0 into your 17-inch MacBook Pro?

I won't buy glossy and especially Apple's double-glossy screens.
Fusion drive makes all sense, when you want big AND fast storage. Best thing Apple has offered for years, I think.
For countless times I have ingested video from firewire to external drive and uploading files at the same time to NAS. You need to have 3 ports to do this.

repoman27 said:
Except it is a WAYYY smaller hole that is used way more frequently by way more people.

What's so horrible to have few cubic centimeters of empty space in laptops?
Do you also have your pockets, bag, car and home stuffed to the last cubic centimeter?

repoman27 said:
The only SATA controller that has ever been native on a Mac is the one in the PCH/southbridge. Not surprisingly, this is the only one they really provide a full fledged driver for in Mac OS. (Well, and the RAID controller for the Mac Pro, I suppose.) If third parties create an add-in SATA/eSATA controller, it's up to them to provide a working driver if they want to claim Mac compatibility. This is not really an Apple problem, is it?

No, that's Apple's customers' problem. When Apple axed EC from 15", it killed it from mac ecosystem. 17" sales alone does not provide enough sales for EC's for 3rd parties to develop good drivers.

repoman27 said:
If Apple had provided a Thunderbolt switch from day one, you would still be complaining. Probably even more so due to the $650-$850 price tag.

Yes, but my complaining or not does not affect the problem. The problem is that after 2 years of initial release, we still can't know if TB will survive. A switch would be promise for that. But like I said, I guess Apple uses TB just for ATBD or cutting costs of their products by reducing the amount of ports and selling dongles.

toke lahti · Jan 22, 2013

repoman27 said:
I think pretty much any eSATA ExpressCard will work with a Mac, but will only show up as a generic AHCI interface. If you want all the bells and whistles (i.e. driver support) and eSATA 6 Gb/s with a PCIe 2.0 back end, you'll need to overpay it seems. The FirmTek SeriTek/6G for $120 would most likely be the best bet for overall performance.

Hmm, this might the one, if I was buing something now:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/CalDigit/FASTA2EX/
Only half the price of Lacies esata2tb...2.5Gbps is enough for me.
Would be sweet if there just would be 17" mbp with tb + usb3 + EC slot...

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Thunderbolt Adoption Reportedly Slowed by Intel's Licensing and Certification, But Improvements Coming

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