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Old Jan 23, 2013, 01:57 AM   #26
AppleScruff1
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He sure was an arrogant, conceited, manipulating man.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 01:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by swingerofbirch View Post
Google strikes me as a more ethical company.
Google is not ethical. They only appear so because their products are, by and large, "free" to the general public, yet free they are not.

Apple makes their money from hardware and software sales. Google makes their money selling you.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:04 AM   #28
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Google is not ethical. They only appear so because their products are, by and large, "free" to the general public, yet free they are not.

Apple makes their money from hardware and software sales. Google makes their money selling you.
He never said they were ethical, though. Just that google was more ethical.
Also, google doesn't try to force you to use their services. Apple, on the other hand, will threaten to rape you if you don't go along with their terms.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:07 AM   #29
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Sorry but you can't defend this. Threatening legal action if they didn't agree to effectively break the law is not ok.

This is the side of Steve that showed his true personality. The personality we saw before he was fired. If he didn't get his way, he was an *******.

Regardless of how good he was at his job, this was a dick move on his part.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:08 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Unggoy Murderer View Post
Yeah, I do... Steve was doing what he could to do what was right. Palm wasn't playing ball. The agreement between the big companies wouldn't exist if it was wrong or unfair. And, did you even read the links that were served to you?
This didn't need to devolve into an Apple vs Samsung thread. Is whose has the biggest scumbags on their board really a productive discussion? Palm was correct in trying to resist illegal activity. The agreement is still wrong and unfair. The purpose would have been to retain employees at their current salary levels while that same company retains all of their existing tools for hiring and firing practices.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:09 AM   #31
SlCKB0Y
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Google makes their money selling you.
What rubbish. Do people honestly still believe this FUD?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:09 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by locust76 View Post
Google is not ethical. They only appear so because their products are, by and large, "free" to the general public, yet free they are not.

Apple makes their money from hardware and software sales. Google makes their money selling you.
That's not an ethics issue. For one thing they don't sell your details, they use your search terms to show relevant adverts across the web (which you can opt out of). Apple use the exact same methods with iAds. Microsoft do it with Bing, etc.

Ethics doesn't come into it as it's not sold to anyone, and it's non identifiable. Sure if they started dishing out your name, address, job, etc that would be an issue, but right now, it's not.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:10 AM   #33
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I'm not surprised. Most tech companies have clauses to try and prevent human capital from moving to a competitor, or even a customer. This certainly happens in the UK (in my job, that would be considered poacher turned gamekeeper, as I mostly test stuff ), though here the clauses are largely regarded as unenforceable*.

* Especially where the human capital in question happens to be related to a director of the business (at least in my observations).
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:12 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Unggoy Murderer View Post
Yeah, I do... Steve was doing what he could to do what was right. Palm wasn't playing ball. The agreement between the big companies wouldn't exist if it was wrong or unfair. And, did you even read the links that were served to you?
Wouldnt exist if it was wrong or unfair. Good thing there is a class action lawsuit to take that sort of thing to court, eh.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:12 AM   #35
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Pirates of Silicone Valley. That's all I've got to say
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:12 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
Sorry but you can't defend this. Threatening legal action if they didn't agree to effectively break the law is not ok.

This is the side of Steve that showed his true personality. The personality we saw before he was fired. If he didn't get his way, he was an *******.

Regardless of how good he was at his job, this was a dick move on his part.
Thank god someone gets it.
See, when Samsung's chairman doesn't pay $25 mill in taxes South Korea, Apple lovers act like Samsung is going around running mass pedophile extortion rings.
When Apple threatens other companies with legal action if they didn't break the law and make their employees slaves to the company, they go full force to defend Apple's illegal actions.

The thing is, Samsung's actions DO NOT harm anyone nor do they deprive te fundamental rights of all men. Apple's actions do, and that's why Apple is the bigger scum.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:15 AM   #37
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The way I see it, Apple is the biggest scum of them all. They make Samsung look like Mother Teresa. All Samsung is involved with is bribery of Korean politicians to get tax cuts and even more tax cuts, which doesn't really harm anyone. Apple's activities, on the other hand...
Um, what? How does that not harm anyone? What about, you know, the people of Korea? You think Apple's (not really, Apple, but rather Steve Jobs, and let's be honest, everyone already knew he could be a tremendous arse) bullying is worse than fraud and bribery?

That Apple's posturing and brinksmanship, which is no worse than things like hostile takeovers and is common in virtually every business sector, is worse than actual crimes perpetrated against the government and people of a sovereign nation? If you really want to get into it, Samsung's dirty history and criminal connections go a lot deeper than this...

The business world is populated by sociopaths. It's a cutthroat environment where typically, the best are the best because of their "do whatever it takes" mentality. This is true for pretty much everything, business, sports (*cough* Lance Armstrong), even (or I should say, especially) science and academia -- when it comes to being the top, you sometimes have to be a terrible person to get there (and stay there). Ed Colligan is really a rare role model in this respect, but he was on the losing end for sure.

It's one thing to criticize Apple for its corporate policy or its products or even its executives. I tend to agree with many of these critiques. But to suggest that then doing something, that while not very nice is very commonplace, is indicative of Apple being more "scum" than Samsung... well that's kind of ridiculous when Samsung's crimes are not only incomparable, they're indefensible.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:15 AM   #38
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They are scum... you can read all about it....

http://www.kernelmag.com/features/re...tion-and-lies/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/bu...anted=all&_r=0

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aH3aDwXXnvqc

http://www.fastcompany.com/1627411/b...ean-prosecutor

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_8029589.htm

Regardless of that, a whole lot of Silicon Valley companies (e.g.: just about all the big ones) are going to pay out on a class action lawsuit regarding these no-hire agreements. It extends way beyond Apple and Google.
Do you have those links saved in Word file or something? Ready to go at a moments notice?

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Pirates of Silicone Valley. That's all I've got to say
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/
Was just watching that a couple of hours ago!
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:19 AM   #39
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Um, what? How does that not harm anyone? What about, you know, the people of Korea? You think Apple's (not really, Apple, but rather Steve Jobs, and let's be honest, everyone already knew he could be a tremendous arse) bullying is worse than fraud and bribery?

That Apple's posturing and brinksmanship, which is no worse than things like hostile takeovers and is common in virtually every business sector, is worse than actual crimes perpetrated against the government and people of a sovereign nation? If you really want to get into it, Samsung's dirty history and criminal connections go a lot deeper than this...

The business world is populated by sociopaths. It's a cutthroat environment where typically, the best are the best because of their "do whatever it takes" mentality. This is true for pretty much everything, business, sports (*cough* Lance Armstrong), even (or I should say, especially) science and academia -- when it comes to being the top, you sometimes have to be a terrible person to get there (and stay there). Ed Colligan is really a rare role model in this respect, but he was on the losing end for sure.

It's one thing to criticize Apple for its corporate policy or its products or even its executives. I tend to agree with many of these critiques. But to suggest that then doing something, that while not very nice is very commonplace, is indicative of Apple being more "scum" than Samsung... well that's kind of ridiculous when Samsung's crimes are not only incomparable, they're indefensible.
Don't worry. Korea would be NOTHING without Samsung. In fact, the majority of the Korean people supported the previous President's decision to pardon Samsung's Head chief for tax evasion. So like I said, no harm done. The people of Korea have A LOT to thank for Samsung, and a little tax evasion is a very minor offense to them. Maybe it's a difference in culture between the US and Korea, since we seem to make a big deal when a Republican person evades taxes.

Also, LOL @ you thinking Samsung's crimes are "indefensible". At least Samsung doesn't try to enslave their employees and limit their rights. The only indefensible crime here is committed by Apple and their scum of a cult leader.

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Originally Posted by tech4all View Post
Do you have those links saved in Word file or something? Ready to go at a moments notice?



Was just watching that a couple of hours ago!
Well, Apple lovers are obsessed with not only Apple, but Samsung. They really need to get out some more.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:20 AM   #40
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though this is wrong it happens in many companies and at different levels.. especially when a very good resource thinks about moving to another one.. just because its Steve Jobs it becomes a big news.. looking at it another way one would say he was just doing his job too seriously and being possessive about resources of his company..
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:21 AM   #41
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What a legend. And he wasn't threatening Palm to make more money or be a jerk. He was making sure people like us would always have the best products available because the best people would be able to work on them. We should be grateful.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:22 AM   #42
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What a legend. And he wasn't threatening Palm to make more money or be a jerk. He was making sure people like us would always have the best products available because the best people would be able to work on them. We should be grateful.
Another advocate of slavery. Jesus Christ, will these people stop at nothing to defend Apple?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:23 AM   #43
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Both Samsung and Apple are scum, but here's the difference. Samsung's activities don't harm anyone or deprive anyone of their rights. Apple's does.
See, here I mostly agree with you. They both have scum-like activities, but that's true of most companies. That doesn't justify it, of course, but when you weigh it all together, I really don't think Apple's behavior is worse than Samsung's.

This no-poaching agreement is NOT a company-wide thing. There was a very select 'no-call' list, so it likely only applied to important executives, high level employees, and key designers and engineers. While these individuals are hurt by being deprived of potential raises/promotions by recruitment, do you actually believe what Apple (and to be fair, we're singling out Apple here, but the other's in the agreement such as Google as equally culpable) did hurts people more than something like Samsung's LCD price fixing?

Just because someone was on the no-call list, that does not mean they necessarily were going to be recruited anyway. Again, I'm not saying this is okay behavior, but how many people do you think were even affected by this agreement? And of those, how many were substantially or materially damaged in a truly adverse manner?

Now consider how many people are harmed by something like LCD-price fixing? I'm amazed you think such behavior doesn't harm anyone; that harms every single person who bought a LCD-enabled device during that span (side note: I predict in 2-3 years, a judge is going to lay the banhammer on the hard drive price fixing fiasco happening right now). Bribing politicians for tax breaks, not unlike the disgusting lobbying that happens in US Congress, does harm the entire citizenry of a nation, at the benefit of the company, its execs, and its stockholders. The scale of their respective crimes, both douchey and scummy for sure, are just not even remotely comparable, let alone suggestive that Apple is more scum-like.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:25 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Puevlo View Post
What a legend. And he wasn't threatening Palm to make more money or be a jerk. He was making sure people like us would always have the best products available because the best people would be able to work on them. We should be grateful.
How is it ok for employees of each of these companies being forced to stay in the same job, with no promotions, no wage increases, etc? That's the issue here, it's got naff all to do with consumers.

It's wrong and illegal for a reason. If it wasn't wrong you currently be living in a controlled country, where you'd be forced to do the same job for your entire life, on minimum wage.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:26 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by tech4all View Post
Do you have those links saved in Word file or something? Ready to go at a moments notice?



Was just watching that a couple of hours ago!
I kid you not, I too was just watching it. All I can say is that Apple(particularly Steve Jobs) was very vengeful and didn't want to go through what happened with IBM and Microsoft again, even though they took their GUI idea from Xerox.

Last edited by lolkthxbai; Jan 23, 2013 at 02:26 AM. Reason: Misspelled "too"
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:27 AM   #46
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Don't worry. Korea would be NOTHING without Samsung. In fact, the majority of the Korean people supported the previous President's decision to pardon Samsung's Head chief for tax evasion. So like I said, no harm done. The people of Korea have A LOT to thank for Samsung, and a little tax evasion is a very minor offense to them. Maybe it's a difference in culture between the US and Korea, since we seem to make a big deal when a Republican person evades taxes.
There was harm done, it was just forgiven. So because an institution contributed to a country, it should be above the law? Apple accounts for a tremendous amount of the US tax revenue (something like 1/30 of total corporate revenue iirc). By your logic, certainly we should forgive them then for dicking over a handful of employees. I'm certain the majority of the American people would support a decision to forgive Apple, and the other companies, for this minor agreement that barely affects anyone.

Quote:
Also, LOL @ you thinking Samsung's crimes are "indefensible". At least Samsung doesn't try to enslave their employees and limit their rights. The only indefensible crime here is committed by Apple and their scum of a cult leader.
Again, you need to think in terms of absolute magnitude. A few dozen, maybe at most, a few hundred (though I doubt it's anywhere near this many), employees were denied unknown amounts of raise/promotion and an opportunity to be recruited elsewhere, from their current undoubtedly high-paying and cushy job. In the scale of things, this just isn't that big of a deal compared to defrauding the government to robbing millions of people by fixing the prices of LCDs that go into millions and millions of devices.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puevlo View Post
What a legend. And he wasn't threatening Palm to make more money or be a jerk. He was making sure people like us would always have the best products available because the best people would be able to work on them. We should be grateful.
My friend, blind fanboyism is NOT how to we argue logic against people who are clearly hating on Apple. Steve was being a dick. And that's part of what made him such a great CEO.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:27 AM   #47
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See, here I mostly agree with you. They both have scum-like activities, but that's true of most companies. That doesn't justify it, of course, but when you weigh it all together, I really don't think Apple's behavior is worse than Samsung's.

This no-poaching agreement is NOT a company-wide thing. There was a very select 'no-call' list, so it likely only applied to important executives, high level employees, and key designers and engineers. While these individuals are hurt by being deprived of potential raises/promotions by recruitment, do you actually believe what Apple (and to be fair, we're singling out Apple here, but the other's in the agreement such as Google as equally culpable) did hurts people more than something like Samsung's LCD price fixing?

Just because someone was on the no-call list, that does not mean they necessarily were going to be recruited anyway. Again, I'm not saying this is okay behavior, but how many people do you think were even affected by this agreement? And of those, how many were substantially or materially damaged in a truly adverse manner?

Now consider how many people are harmed by something like LCD-price fixing? I'm amazed you think such behavior doesn't harm anyone; that harms every single person who bought a LCD-enabled device during that span (side note: I predict in 2-3 years, a judge is going to lay the banhammer on the hard drive price fixing fiasco happening right now). Bribing politicians for tax breaks, not unlike the disgusting lobbying that happens in US Congress, does harm the entire citizenry of a nation, at the benefit of the company, its execs, and its stockholders. The scale of their respective crimes, both douchey and scummy for sure, are just not even remotely comparable, let alone suggestive that Apple is more scum-like.
Well, those people who bought from Samsung did pay a whopping $25 more on their Samsung, Toshiba, Sony, LG, and other television. I guess different values are worth more to some people than others. You may think losing $25 on your TV is a bigger deal than slavery, but other people think the other way.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:28 AM   #48
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He was making sure people like us would always have the best products available because the best people would be able to work on them. We should be grateful.
Huh? Wow. So you have no problem with massively limiting an employees chances of successfully gaining employment with another company... in effect forcing them to remain with their current employer regardless of how deficient the pay and working conditions are? All just so you can have your shiny little toy?

Are you serious?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:30 AM   #49
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So because an institution contributed to a country, it should be above the law? Apple accounts for a tremendous amount of the US tax revenue (something like 1/30 of total corporate revenue iirc). By your logic, certainly we should forgive them then for dicking over a handful of employees.
Well, no. I said there wasn't much harm done. This no-poaching ring that Apple spearheaded enforces slavery, which is a bigger crime than losing out on $25 mill in tax revenue.


Quote:
Again, you need to think in terms of absolute magnitude. A few dozen, maybe at most, a few hundred (though I doubt it's anywhere near this many), employees were denied unknown amounts of raise/promotion and an opportunity to be recruited elsewhere, from their current undoubtedly high-paying and cushy job. In the scale of things, this just isn't that big of a deal compared to defrauding the government to robbing millions of people by fixing the prices of LCDs that go into millions and millions of devices.

---



My friend, blind fanboyism is NOT how to we argue logic against people who are clearly hating on Apple. Steve was being a dick. And that's part of what made him such a great CEO.
Look, I honestly don't care that my Samsung TV was $25 overpriced thanks to the LCD price-fixing. Really. I find slavery more apprehensible than a small price increase.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:30 AM   #50
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And people call Samsung scum.
Can't blame them.
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