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Old Jan 23, 2013, 12:05 PM   #26
GermanyChris
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
The socket will change with Haswell E5's also. All the rumblings point to Haswell E5's switching to DDR4 memory which is going to mean a socket change. At the end of the tick-tock cycle, you should expect a socket change. [ It will be 2014 or perhaps 2015 but there will be a change. ]

The 2011 sockets support 40 lanes but they also support 2 QPI links also. However, some like the 1600 series don't have the 2 QPI links enabled. It is more than just what the socket supports. It is what Intel has switched on in the product.
it's not quite through it first generation of it's two generation's..1155 is half way through it's second generation..

CES had some DDR4 on display

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6619/c...r42133-modules

Anand gives it it a year+ so '15 or '16 we'll see it on the this type system
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 12:34 PM   #27
deconstruct60
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it's not quite through it first generation of it's two generation's..1155 is half way through it's second generation..
"its" == socket 2011? then Yes, the Ivy Bridge products haven't come yet but the 1155 is effectively at the end of the line. Haswell is due in June (start of a new tick-tock cycle) and there is a new socket change.


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Anand gives it it a year+ so '15 or '16 we'll see it on the this type system
For mainstream desktiops, yes. Because they'll have to wait for the Haswell-Broadwell tick-tock cycle to complete to change the socket again. That's 2015 at least.

There is an upside to having the server designs trail slight behind because they can get newer I/O upgrades coupled to earlier x86 core microarchietctures just be coupled better I/O into the CPU package.

I don't think it will be '16 till the server versions move up. I think the server oriented designs will merge with DDR4 at Haswell. Very similar to how Xeon E5 sandy bridge got PCI-e v3.0 and they mainstream designs didn't get it until Ivy Bridge only this is across who generation.

There are way too many vendors at this point demoing working DDR4 prototypes for the designs to sit on ice generating no revenue for another two years. A whole year of prototyping during 2013 is plenty of time to deliver something late Q3 (or solidly inside of Q4 ) 2014.

Substantially higher memory I/O is going to matter more with relatively higher core counts because the pressure to fill L2 and L3 cache misses is going to be relatively much higher when fully loaded down with active processes. Haswell E5 may have a 12 core max configuration and Broadwell around 14. Trying to keep that may cores feed concurrently is an issue. Clocking memory faster isn't solely the right solution.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 12:39 PM   #28
GermanyChris
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
"its" == socket 2011? then Yes, the Ivy Bridge products haven't come yet but the 1155 is effectively at the end of the line. Haswell is due in June (start of a new tick-tock cycle) and there is a new socket change.




For mainstream desktiops, yes. Because they'll have to wait for the Haswell-Broadwell tick-tock cycle to complete to change the socket again. That's 2015 at least.

There is an upside to having the server designs trail slight behind because they can get newer I/O upgrades coupled to earlier x86 core microarchietctures just be coupled better I/O into the CPU package.

I don't think it will be '16 till the server versions move up. I think the server oriented designs will merge with DDR4 at Haswell. Very similar to how Xeon E5 sandy bridge got PCI-e v3.0 and they mainstream designs didn't get it until Ivy Bridge only this is across who generation.

There are way too many vendors at this point demoing working DDR4 prototypes for the designs to sit on ice generating no revenue for another two years. A whole year of prototyping during 2013 is plenty of time to deliver something late Q3 (or solidly inside of Q4 ) 2014.

Substantially higher memory I/O is going to matter more with relatively higher core counts because the pressure to fill L2 and L3 cache misses is going to be relatively much higher when fully loaded down with active processes. Haswell E5 may have a 12 core max configuration and Broadwell around 14. Trying to keep that may cores feed concurrently is an issue. Clocking memory faster isn't solely the right solution.
Mainstream desktops will get it DDR 4 in '14, Notebooks late '14 through '15 late '15 through '16 for the Xeon family
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 01:25 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
Mainstream desktops will get it DDR 4 in '14, Notebooks late '14 through '15 late '15 through '16 for the Xeon family
That wasn't Intel's plan as recently as 9 months ago....

"Intel Haswell-EX Enterprise Processors To Introduce DDR4 Memory ..."
http://www.techpowerup.com/163592/In...R4-Memory.html

" Intel to Start DDR4 Usage with Server Platforms in 2014. "
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/memory/...s_in_2014.html

Nor 6 months ago... .

" ... After that, the 2015-bound Haswell EP Xeon E5 2600 / 4600 v3 will possess 14 cores, 4-channel DDR4-2133 memory support, quad-QPI links (9.6 GT/s), the works. ... "


Mainstream desktops and mainstream mobile processors are based on the same design. It is not likely Intel is going to decouple them over a year apart.

I certainly can see Haswell-EX sliding out to 2015-2016 timeframe as the Ivy Bridge -EX is only arriving in this year with AMD continuing to implode so there is little to no market pressure to roll out an improvement within a year.

However, even the Anadtech article you referenced has:

" ... . It’s just as possible that the box has an unannounced next generation Xeon with a DDR4 controller. But I digress….
.... The initial target devices will be servers where the improved memory density and power savings are needed most, ..."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6619/c...r42133-modules

Ivy Bridge Xeon E5 is being queue up to ship with a very long QA and acceptance process. There should be early engineering samples of the Haswell varaints by now. Or Haswell-EX variants if it is still on track for 2014.

DDR4 has downsides

"DDR4's technical advances come at a price. .....
... That will make DDR4 memory, at least initially, fairly expensive to produce. "
http://arstechnica.com/business/2012...aybe-too-soon/

The much more highly price sensitive mainstream desktop market is probably not where anyone would want to deploy more expensive memory, but higher performing, technology first.

Last edited by deconstruct60; Jan 23, 2013 at 01:33 PM.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:47 PM   #30
GermanyChris
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
That wasn't Intel's plan as recently as 9 months ago....

"Intel Haswell-EX Enterprise Processors To Introduce DDR4 Memory ..."
http://www.techpowerup.com/163592/In...R4-Memory.html

" Intel to Start DDR4 Usage with Server Platforms in 2014. "
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/memory/...s_in_2014.html

Nor 6 months ago... .

" ... After that, the 2015-bound Haswell EP Xeon E5 2600 / 4600 v3 will possess 14 cores, 4-channel DDR4-2133 memory support, quad-QPI links (9.6 GT/s), the works. ... "


Mainstream desktops and mainstream mobile processors are based on the same design. It is not likely Intel is going to decouple them over a year apart.

I certainly can see Haswell-EX sliding out to 2015-2016 timeframe as the Ivy Bridge -EX is only arriving in this year with AMD continuing to implode so there is little to no market pressure to roll out an improvement within a year.

However, even the Anadtech article you referenced has:

" ... . It’s just as possible that the box has an unannounced next generation Xeon with a DDR4 controller. But I digress….
.... The initial target devices will be servers where the improved memory density and power savings are needed most, ..."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6619/c...r42133-modules

Ivy Bridge Xeon E5 is being queue up to ship with a very long QA and acceptance process. There should be early engineering samples of the Haswell varaints by now. Or Haswell-EX variants if it is still on track for 2014.

DDR4 has downsides

"DDR4's technical advances come at a price. .....
... That will make DDR4 memory, at least initially, fairly expensive to produce. "
http://arstechnica.com/business/2012...aybe-too-soon/

The much more highly price sensitive mainstream desktop market is probably not where anyone would want to deploy more expensive memory, but higher performing, technology first.
But thats how DDR3 was deployed but then again DDR3 to my recollection wasn't significantly more expensive...

You follow this much closer than I do and more consistently I ebb and flow.

It being shown a CES in '13 running on current processors combined with Anand saying a year or so puts us and Broadwell with Haswell-E following.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:14 PM   #31
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But thats how DDR3 was deployed but then again DDR3 to my recollection wasn't significantly more expensive...
DDR3 design development started back in 2002 and arrived around 2007. That was the 'desktop era'. It is largely over now. In part DDR4 increase in memory density is trying to shrink the number of DIMMs slots required for very large RAM capacities. That's a sever problem.

Even two 8GB DIMMs is more than plenty for the vast majority of mainstream users.

If trying to fit multiple high core count CPU packages onto server blades or over 100GB RAM onto "normal sized" boards then it isn't.

It does align with with Apple's only four DIMM slot (per CPU package) design approach, so they are likely to buy into it.


Quote:
It being shown a CES in '13 running on current processors combined with Anand saying a year or so puts us and Broadwell with Haswell-E following.
DDR4 is a point-to-point oriented ( no more multiple banks per controller unless insert an external switch ) so not sure how Broadwell mainstream does that with a socket designed for DDR3. It is a technological shift, but is possible since the memory controller is inside the package. It is possible but potentially awkward since same socket suggests compatibility.

Haswell (and Broadwell) can address denser memory without leaving DDR3. I think that is what Intel is going to go with since it will likely be the more inexpensive RAM alternative. The general PC market is stagnating which means the price sensitivity is much higher than it was 6-10 years ago.
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Old May 1, 2013, 03:55 AM   #32
Yidahoo
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I7-990x

I have been following this and other discussions re the i7 in Mac Pro. I am a British ex-pat living in Ukraine and have found several reputable stores selling the i7-990X Extreme Edition for less than $700 new. Apart from the fact that it seems very cheap compared to UK prices, will it work in a Mac 4,1 Quad Core 2.66. I have already flashed to 5,1 and if needs be will replace the EEC ram with standard Ram.
Has anyone one had any experience of this processor that they can give to me. It seems a great deal to get a massive speed boost to my Mac
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