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Old Oct 20, 2012, 06:18 AM   #51
orestes1984
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Originally Posted by roidy View Post
But the master sources aren't terrible because it's what they use to produce the Blu-ray copys they sell.
And there's more than plenty of crappy master sources and crappy quality Blu-Ray discs out there

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You're just contradicted yourself there
I did not, I stated if you think you can do better than do better, but a different product and stop he immature rant
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 08:12 AM   #52
BuddyRich
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Heavy handed DNR.

The screenshot comparisons posted by StinDawg tell the story.

Not sure if its a function of lower bitrate or a setting they are intentionally using when encoding, but they are de-noising the 1080p encodes and its blurring alot of the detail. Its classic DNR and not necessarily caused by lower bitrate as its not compression artifacts. (though the DNR might be applied to hide compression)

Now, some people will claim that it looks better because it is "less grainy", but it does obscure details in doing so.

To each their own. Though I would hate to see Band of Brothers or the Pacific in itunes 1080p (if available) vs. the Bluray... certain scenes were intentionally left grainy would get washed away with DNR.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 08:34 AM   #53
thenaes
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I'm assuming these lower bitrates are due to the fact the AppleTV only has 8GB onboard and that Apple wants to make these all streamable. Most people don't have connections good enough to stream 10mbit video.

It would be really nice if, in the future, they make the video adaptive to your internet connection when streaming from the cloud. Probably wishful thinking though.

I only have a few movies purchased from iTunes right now and I really can't complain too much about the quality, but I do wish it was up to par with the Xbox/Vudu, which are ~8-10mbit.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 07:59 PM   #54
StinDaWg
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Originally Posted by orestes1984 View Post
And there's more than plenty of crappy master sources and crappy quality Blu-Ray discs out there



I did not, I stated if you think you can do better than do better, but a different product and stop he immature rant
You have no idea what you are talking about, and you obviously didn't look at the screenshots I posted. The 1080p encodes look worse and it has nothing to do with a crappy master source, because the 720p looks good and it's from the same source.

Someone should post this thread on the official apple forums. I'd be interested to hear what their response is.

Last edited by StinDaWg; Oct 20, 2012 at 08:08 PM.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 08:40 PM   #55
ProudLoz
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about, and you obviously didn't look at the screenshots I posted. The 1080p encodes look worse and it has nothing to do with a crappy master source, because the 720p looks good and it's from the same source.

Someone should post this thread on the official apple forums. I'd be interested to hear what their response is.
The apple forums will unfortunately ignore since the screenshots you posted have filenames that are associated with pirated files. So, unless you want to have a proper argument, I suggest you take screen shots of your properly bought TV Shows and then take it over there for an opinion.

Now, I'm not saying that you don't have a point here, you most likely do but make sure it's from real content that's actually provided from the iTunes Store.

Then again, you could easily change the filenames yourself to imitate the naming system iTunes uses and go with that. There's no real way to tell if these came from legit purchases from iTunes, but the file names on those screenshots do not help.
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 10:10 PM   #56
StinDaWg
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Originally Posted by BuddyRich View Post
The screenshot comparisons posted by StinDawg tell the story.

Not sure if its a function of lower bitrate or a setting they are intentionally using when encoding, but they are de-noising the 1080p encodes and its blurring alot of the detail. Its classic DNR and not necessarily caused by lower bitrate as its not compression artifacts. (though the DNR might be applied to hide compression)

They probably are heavily DNRed, and why they look so blurry with no detail. It's funny to see people think it's better though just because it's 1080p.

Last edited by StinDaWg; Oct 21, 2012 at 01:21 AM.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:21 AM   #57
StinDaWg
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The Following S01E01 720p vs. 1080p
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3822
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3820
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3821

There is more detail in all of the 720p shots. 1080p is blurry. This is what you are getting with your "upgraded" 1080p encodes.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:33 AM   #58
Menneisyys2
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
The Following S01E01 720p vs. 1080p
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3822
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3820
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3821

There is more detail in all of the 720p shots. 1080p is blurry. This is what you are getting with your "upgraded" 1080p encodes.
Wowz... this indeed sucks. 1080p is indeed much-much worse and less detailed.

So much for the "excellent" image quality of Apple's ridiculously low (generally, under 3 Mbps) encoding bitrates. Not even Apple can beat the laws of physics - that is, the law that states that quality H.264 encoding at 1080p starts at at least 7-8 Mbps.

EDIT: BTW, are these results published in a full article? I'd like to refer to it in my video/encoding-specific articles to emphasize how lame Apple is, how they cheat their customers and why it's worth doing the Blu-ray ripping yourself instead of purchasing Apple's cr@p.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 10:21 AM   #59
dynaflash
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... and some of you actually think Apple does all of the encoding for the iTunes movies ?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 12:09 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
The Following S01E01 720p vs. 1080p
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3822
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3820
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/3821

There is more detail in all of the 720p shots. 1080p is blurry. This is what you are getting with your "upgraded" 1080p encodes.

This is great, absolutely perfect for comparison. Heavy DNR use by , just look at the pics.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:05 PM   #61
Menneisyys2
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... and some of you actually think Apple does all of the encoding for the iTunes movies ?
It doesn't really matter who does it. It's the results that matter.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:28 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Menneisyys2 View Post
It doesn't really matter who does it. It's the results that matter.
The distinction does matter. If I go buy some Blu-rays from Walmart, am I to go back and scream at them when one of the flicks is a DNR special?

Sure, they can refund my money if it's a gross screwup but they aren't going to enact any change. They also aren't going to care when I start comparing screen shots at different resolutions.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:06 PM   #63
dynaflash
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Originally Posted by Menneisyys2 View Post
It doesn't really matter who does it. It's the results that matter.
fwiw, you are smarter than that. Imo, if you don't like it then don't buy it. Its like comcast "HD" you pay for. Its utter crap, I submit worse than iTunes HD. Its a market. Don't like it don't buy it and go through the work to "roll your own".

Apple provides what the studios (who control the content mind you) provide.

Just sayin'.

Edit: I have no dog in this fight but fwiw imo if the iTunes HD sources were higher bitrate and not so pared down, the title of this thread would probably read " Why does it take forever to stream my movie?" Personally for internet provided video I don't think its that bad considering. And I have done a "fair bit" of video encoding in my days. Now again, its just for what its worth. That and a quarter might buy you a cup of coffee.

Last edited by dynaflash; Jan 23, 2013 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Added an Edit.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 06:16 PM   #64
Irishman
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So I thought I'd download a 1080p TV episode to see what all the fuss is about, I can't play them on my ATV1 but I thought I'd check one out anyway to see what I was missing.

All I can say is good god how does Apple palm people off with this crap.

Here's 2 uncompressed screen grabs from an episode of Eureka season 5.

Attachment 340868
Attachment 340869

Uncompressed png versions in a zip file.

I've always been perfectly happy with the quality of iTunes 720p content but this is terrible. I'm going to download a couple more to see if this is just a one off occurance.
Poor choice of content in order to test 1080p. TV Shows are not broadcast in 1080p. They are either 720p or 1080i, neither of which will be confused with top-quality Blu-ray 1080p content.

Pick a film (not TV show) that was mastered in 1080p, and which Apple offers in 1080p. That will be a better test.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 06:28 PM   #65
dynaflash
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And preferably not a bframe. Which is what you posted. As well a still from a movie is not the best judge of the playback video quality.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 08:23 PM   #66
Solomani
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Yes, as I said I pay my money to Apple so I expect Apple to quality control the files to make sure they're not selling me crap.
Are you serious? You truly want Apple to play the role of Content Police?
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:05 AM   #67
StinDaWg
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Poor choice of content in order to test 1080p. TV Shows are not broadcast in 1080p. They are either 720p or 1080i, neither of which will be confused with top-quality Blu-ray 1080p content.

Pick a film (not TV show) that was mastered in 1080p, and which Apple offers in 1080p. That will be a better test.
Most scripted tv shows these days are filmed in 1080p@24p mpeg4, and then re-encoded to 1080i/720p mpeg2 for broadcast. How do you think they release the 1080p Blu-ray for these shows later on? Magic?

----------

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Originally Posted by dynaflash View Post
I have no dog in this fight but fwiw imo if the iTunes HD sources were higher bitrate and not so pared down, the title of this thread would probably read " Why does it take forever to stream my movie?" Personally for internet provided video I don't think its that bad considering. And I have done a "fair bit" of video encoding in my days.
Apples 1080p movie trailers are encoded at 8-10 mbps, and look fine. Their 1080p itunes content is encoded at an average of 5 mbps, and their 720p 4 mbps. The sad thing is, because they are bitstarving their 1080p encodes they actually look worse than the 720p, with the exception of animation, which doesn't require a high bitrate to look good. Apple is getting a pass from the mainstream tech media on this, and I'm not sure why. None of the other companies who provide 1080p (Vudu, Netflix, Xbox, PS3, ect) look worse at 1080p.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 02:51 AM   #68
Menneisyys2
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The distinction does matter. If I go buy some Blu-rays from Walmart, am I to go back and scream at them when one of the flicks is a DNR special?
I know there is HUGE encoding quality difference between BR releases (if that's what you meant). This is why I always consult the absolutely excellent encoding quality listings at http://www.avsforum.com/t/1168342/th...u-ray-rankings before ordering Blu-ray discs from Amazon.

----------

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Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post
Apple is getting a pass from the mainstream tech media on this, and I'm not sure why.
Because the American tech media (Engadget, The Verge etc.) is pretty much pro-Apple?

----------

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Originally Posted by dynaflash View Post
Edit: I have no dog in this fight but fwiw imo if the iTunes HD sources were higher bitrate and not so pared down, the title of this thread would probably read " Why does it take forever to stream my movie?" Personally for internet provided video I don't think its that bad considering. And I have done a "fair bit" of video encoding in my days. Now again, its just for what its worth. That and a quarter might buy you a cup of coffee.
While I do agree Apple's decision to go with such low encoding bitrates is to help streaming, they could go with providing a choice for people wanting the best possible image quality by also offering a (much) higher-bitrate version of the same movie. It wouldn't be that hard...

Nevertheless, it's not only the inferior image quality of iTunes movies that I prefer ripping my own Blu-ray discs but also:

- the lack of any kind of subtitles (or even English CC's with about 70% of the titles) - pretty big a problem for non-native English speakers

- no commentary audio tracks in most cases

- copy protection

- priced about the same as Blu-ray discs ordered from Amazon

- extras not playable on iOS devices / ATV (unlike BD extras, which are encoded with plain H.264 and are directly playable after ripping on non-x86 platforms)
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 06:45 PM   #69
Irishman
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Most scripted tv shows these days are filmed in 1080p@24p mpeg4, and then re-encoded to 1080i/720p mpeg2 for broadcast. How do you think they release the 1080p Blu-ray for these shows later on? Magic?
Save the sarcasm.

Many shows are released as a re-encoded 1080i or 720p file from broadcast onto Blu-ray in 1080p/24p. Sometimes, they don't even bother to re-encode (and you get just the same 1080i version that aired). Sometimes, concerts are released in 1080i as well. The file container has little to do with the quality of the file within. In other words, a re-encode is akin to upconverting and does nothing to add detail to the video.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 07:12 PM   #70
StinDaWg
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Save the sarcasm.

Many shows are released as a re-encoded 1080i or 720p file from broadcast onto Blu-ray in 1080p/24p. Sometimes, they don't even bother to re-encode (and you get just the same 1080i version that aired). Sometimes, concerts are released in 1080i as well. The file container has little to do with the quality of the file within. In other words, a re-encode is akin to upconverting and does nothing to add detail to the video.
I don't think you understand how this works. Most (I would never say all but it's close) scripted tv shows are filmed natively in 1080p24 (23.976 actual). They aren't converted to 1080p for the Blu-ray. Some reality shows are filmed natively in 1080i, but all of your Breaking Bad, Lost, True Blood, Dexter type shows are filmed natively in 1080p24, and have been for many, many years. The reason apple is able to provide tv shows on their store at 1080p24 is because again, they are filmed that way and they are encoded from the master print. Any show that was filmed in 1080i will be encoded to 1080p with a frame rate of 29.97 fps.

Last edited by StinDaWg; Jan 24, 2013 at 08:04 PM.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 08:26 PM   #71
Irishman
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I don't think you understand how this works. Most (I would never say all but it's close) scripted tv shows are filmed natively in 1080p24 (23.976 actual). They aren't converted to 1080p for the Blu-ray. Some reality shows are filmed natively in 1080i, but all of your Breaking Bad, Lost, True Blood, Dexter type shows are filmed natively in 1080p24, and have been for many, many years. The reason apple is able to provide tv shows on their store at 1080p24 is because again, they are filmed that way and they are encoded from the master print. Any show that was filmed in 1080i will be encoded to 1080p with a frame rate of 29.97 fps.
Do you have any documentation for this, or are we supposed to take your word for it?
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 10:20 PM   #72
StinDaWg
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Do you have any documentation for this, or are we supposed to take your word for it?
Google would be a good place for you to start. It's common knowledge.

Last edited by StinDaWg; Jan 24, 2013 at 10:29 PM.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:46 PM   #73
Irishman
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Google would be a good place for you to start. It's common knowledge.
So common that you can't produce it when asked to fortify your assertions with evidence.

Great!
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 01:30 PM   #74
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I purchased all of the Star Trek: Enterprise episodes. There is a great improvement in definition between the 1st year (720p) and the latter years (1080p).

I've also watched several movies and the resolution rivals my Blu-ray experience. Yes, you can tell that there is some compression, but for the most part, surprisingly, it looks great.

Of course some sources are much better than others.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 02:04 PM   #75
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So common that you can't produce it when asked to fortify your assertions with evidence.

Great!
Feel free to read the entire thread.

Quote:
Just about every drama-oriented production is captured on 1080/24p master tapes, either directly with 1080/24PsF (segmented-frame) cameras/recorders, or optically telecined from 24p films. U.S. broadcasters deliver digital copies of these 1080/24p recordings through pulldown (inserting extra TV fields/frames) to convert 24 fps into the broadcast rate for 1080i/720p (60 Hz).
http://www.avsforum.com/t/967966/108...#post_12666304
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