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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:57 PM   #1
walkie
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Is rMBP really capable to drive the screen?

You know I've been reading these days all the threads about rMBP since I plan to buy one, today I went to the Apple Store and played with two 15" 2.3 8G rMBP's, I opened 5 spaces, in one space I had iTunes playing with the 3D effect visualizer, in another space had safari playing a HD video, and on the others spaces I had apps such as Pages/Logic/Calendar opened but they were not accessing 3D, guess what?, the rMBP had hard time when swapping among spaces, the 3D iTunes effect was slow and the video from YouTube was stuttering, even typing was extremely lagging while having all these apps running at the same time, dragging a window or scrolling was slow, and the CPU Monitor reported very low usage on every 8 CPU instances, so CPU speed was not determinant in this test, I made this test on 2 rMBP's to rule out a defective machine, this test was done on the recommended retina resolution, I have never experienced this kind of lag on my old early 2010 iMac, even running 2 difference virtual machines Windows/Linux at the same time in difference spaces.

I also made a test loading safari with web pages containing lot of pictures and graphics elements and I was able to see a kind of lag in some of them, specially those with hi resolution pictures.

I know I had the impression this was software issue but this tests make me think, it seems that rMBP is really pushing the limits of its GPU, and now I don't know what to do whether to buy now or wait for a refresh.

What do you rMBP owners think?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:00 PM   #2
Orlandoech
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Uh yes...

I have no lag issues, while others do.

The Hardware is POWER FULL enough, but more power WOULD help like Tim Allen says. Tool Time... anyone?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:02 PM   #3
maratus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walkie View Post
You know I've been reading these days all the threads about rMBP since I plan to buy one, today I went to the Apple Store and played with two 15" 2.3 8G rMBP's, I opened 5 spaces, in one space I had iTunes playing with the 3D effect visualizer, in another space had safari playing a HD video, and on the others spaces I had apps such as Pages/Logic/Calendar opened but they were not accessing 3D, guess what?, the rMBP had hard time when swapping among spaces, the 3D iTunes effect was slow and the video from YouTube was stuttering, even typing was extremely lagging while having all these apps running at the same time, dragging a window or scrolling was slow, and the CPU Monitor reported very low usage on every 8 CPU instances, so CPU speed was not determinant in this test, I made this test on 2 rMBP's to rule out a defective machine, this test was done on the recommended retina resolution, I have never experienced this kind of lag on my old early 2010 iMac, even running 2 difference virtual machines Windows/Linux at the same time in difference spaces.

I also made a test loading safari with web pages containing lot of pictures and graphics elements and I was able to see a kind of lag in some of them, specially those with hi resolution pictures.

I know I had the impression this was software issue but this tests make me think, it seems that rMBP is really pushing the limits of its GPU, and now I don't know what to do whether to buy now or wait for a refresh.

What do you rMBP owners think?
Hardware is fine. Software implementation could be better.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:06 PM   #4
Orlandoech
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Originally Posted by maratus View Post
Hardware is fine. Software implementation could be better.


thats what I wanted to say, but couldnt. Im handi-capped.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:06 PM   #5
Santabean2000
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Hardware? Software..? Who knows. Apple is working on it. That's why it's recommended to not buy Gen1 Apple products; the bugs re still being ironed out.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:11 PM   #6
Ploki
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Originally Posted by Santabean2000 View Post
Hardware? Software..? Who knows. Apple is working on it. That's why it's recommended to not buy Gen1 Apple products; the bugs re still being ironed out.
It's capable to drive 3 displays + internal with no stutter on externals.

Everybody knows its software.

BTW, mine is 2.7/16/256 BTO and am getting 60fps on all pages so far. No lag, no nothing. perfect

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkie View Post
I also made a test loading safari with web pages containing lot of pictures and graphics elements and I was able to see a kind of lag in some of them, specially those with hi resolution pictures.

I know I had the impression this was software issue but this tests make me think, it seems that rMBP is really pushing the limits of its GPU, and now I don't know what to do whether to buy now or wait for a refresh.

What do you rMBP owners think?
The only thing holding me back is my internet speed.

I get 60fps constantly and it NEVER switches to discrete GPU. It's perhaps pushing the limits of HD4000 but it has a whole over-clocked 650m to spare.

discrete gpu only fires up with app that have dependencies. Logic Pro for some reason enables it.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:18 PM   #7
walkie
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I know rMBP is a powerful machine, but CPU's don't drive the screen, that's what GPU's are for, I suspect Apple realized that its retina display on a laptop was ahead of its time and that's why they overclocked the nvidia GPU, all in all rMBP is a beautiful machine.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:21 PM   #8
bill-p
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Originally Posted by walkie View Post
...What do you rMBP owners think?
I think that computer is affected by this issue:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1452267

And that Apple needs to address it ASAP.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:31 PM   #9
maratus
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Originally Posted by Santabean2000 View Post
Hardware? Software..? Who knows. Apple is working on it. That's why it's recommended to not buy Gen1 Apple products; the bugs re still being ironed out.
They bumped the performance a lot in 10.8.0 compared to Lion. So we can expect subsequent software optimisations and one shouldn't blame rMBP hardware here.

On the other hand, is everyone completely satisfied with the way the Retina Display is being used software-wise?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkie View Post
I know rMBP is a powerful machine, but CPU's don't drive the screen, that's what GPU's are for, I suspect Apple realized that its retina display on a laptop was ahead of its time and that's why they overclocked the nvidia GPU, all in all rMBP is a beautiful machine.
Even Intel integrated graphics can handle this screen just fine.
And you're wrong, the on-the-fly scaling they implement now actually uses one CPU thread. That's the problem!
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:35 PM   #10
walkie
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Originally Posted by maratus View Post

Even Intel integrated graphics can handle this screen just fine.
And you're wrong, the on-the-fly scaling they implement now actually uses one CPU thread. That's the problem!
Nope, if you want to see all processes, just double click on the one-process graphic and it will show them all.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 05:04 PM   #11
Ploki
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Originally Posted by walkie View Post
I know rMBP is a powerful machine, but CPU's don't drive the screen, that's what GPU's are for, I suspect Apple realized that its retina display on a laptop was ahead of its time and that's why they overclocked the nvidia GPU, all in all rMBP is a beautiful machine.
Didn't you read? discrete GPU is disabled all the time, even when running Adobe Illustrator. :-)
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 05:23 PM   #12
Veradun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walkie View Post
You know I've been reading these days all the threads about rMBP since I plan to buy one, today I went to the Apple Store and played with two 15" 2.3 8G rMBP's, I opened 5 spaces, in one space I had iTunes playing with the 3D effect visualizer, in another space had safari playing a HD video, and on the others spaces I had apps such as Pages/Logic/Calendar opened but they were not accessing 3D, guess what?, the rMBP had hard time when swapping among spaces, the 3D iTunes effect was slow and the video from YouTube was stuttering, even typing was extremely lagging while having all these apps running at the same time, dragging a window or scrolling was slow, and the CPU Monitor reported very low usage on every 8 CPU instances, so CPU speed was not determinant in this test, I made this test on 2 rMBP's to rule out a defective machine, this test was done on the recommended retina resolution, I have never experienced this kind of lag on my old early 2010 iMac, even running 2 difference virtual machines Windows/Linux at the same time in difference spaces.

I also made a test loading safari with web pages containing lot of pictures and graphics elements and I was able to see a kind of lag in some of them, specially those with hi resolution pictures.

I know I had the impression this was software issue but this tests make me think, it seems that rMBP is really pushing the limits of its GPU, and now I don't know what to do whether to buy now or wait for a refresh.

What do you rMBP owners think?
In a real life scenario, you're not going to have iTunes with the 3D visualizer open in one space, Safari playing HD video in another and then Pages/Logic/Calendar open in yet another? Of course the rMBP would lag if you use it like that. It's like the image retention issue - if you look for it, you will find it. If it's noticeable even when you're not looking for it (actually using it like it was intended to be used) then it's enough of an issue to be addressed. For me, moving to a rMBP would be a giant leap from my current system. I doubt I'll notice the lag you speak of since my one already has its fair share of it.

Like the others said, it's a software optmisation issue, not a hardware one. The real bummer would be if Apple drops support for the first-gen rMBP after the refresh comes this June. But I doubt that will happen
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 05:39 PM   #13
leman
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Originally Posted by walkie View Post
I know rMBP is a powerful machine, but CPU's don't drive the screen, that's what GPU's are for
CPU is still responsible for most of the drawing. Don't believe me? Open Safari and activity monitor, scroll a webpage up and down rapidly and observe the WindowServer CPU usage.

If you have lag when running multiple active application across different spaces , the GPU is not a problem as invisible spaces are never actually getting drawn. The problem is context switching and caching as well as - when you switch to a different space, the OS often has to reload and recompute the UI - which in total is an expensive operation, especially on a retina screen. This could be solved by more aggressive caching at the cost of RAM usage. And if you were doing your tests having Mission Control open - then yes, you will run into performance limits soon, as OS X attempts to update every application in real time.

The bottom line: in order to have a better view on where the software ends and the hardware starts one needs to understand the concepts behind UI programming - especially OS X Cocoa. A non-programmer will very quickly confuse the role of CPU and GPU. Just because something is visible on the screen, it does not mean that its causing the GPU to work hard.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 06:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walkie View Post
You know I've been reading these days all the threads about rMBP since I plan to buy one, today I went to the Apple Store and played with two 15" 2.3 8G rMBP's, I opened 5 spaces, in one space I had iTunes playing with the 3D effect visualizer, in another space had safari playing a HD video, and on the others spaces I had apps such as Pages/Logic/Calendar opened but they were not accessing 3D, guess what?, the rMBP had hard time when swapping among spaces, the 3D iTunes effect was slow and the video from YouTube was stuttering, even typing was extremely lagging while having all these apps running at the same time, dragging a window or scrolling was slow, and the CPU Monitor reported very low usage on every 8 CPU instances, so CPU speed was not determinant in this test, I made this test on 2 rMBP's to rule out a defective machine, this test was done on the recommended retina resolution, I have never experienced this kind of lag on my old early 2010 iMac, even running 2 difference virtual machines Windows/Linux at the same time in difference spaces.
I have that model and while I would never have that combination of apps open as they wouldn't make much sense in real world usage, I quite often have Webkit, Aperture, Photoshop CS6, Mail and iTunes (music only), at home whilst at work Captivate CS5, Photoshop and Bridge CS6 and Pages open and have yet to experience any lag. The experience is smoother than it was on my 2010 MBP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkie View Post
I also made a test loading safari with web pages containing lot of pictures and graphics elements and I was able to see a kind of lag in some of them, specially those with hi resolution pictures.

I know I had the impression this was software issue but this tests make me think, it seems that rMBP is really pushing the limits of its GPU, and now I don't know what to do whether to buy now or wait for a refresh.

What do you rMBP owners think?
As has been mentioned in multiple threads on here in regards to browser lag on the rMBP, using the Webkit nightlies eliminates this issue and it is almost identical to Safari minus the iCloud tab button.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 08:10 PM   #15
Ploki
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Originally Posted by Veradun View Post
In a real life scenario, you're not going to have iTunes with the 3D visualizer open in one space, Safari playing HD video in another and then Pages/Logic/Calendar open in yet another? Of course the rMBP would lag if you use it like that. It's like the image retention issue - if you look for it, you will find it. If it's noticeable even when you're not looking for it (actually using it like it was intended to be used) then it's enough of an issue to be addressed. For me, moving to a rMBP would be a giant leap from my current system. I doubt I'll notice the lag you speak of since my one already has its fair share of it.

Like the others said, it's a software optmisation issue, not a hardware one. The real bummer would be if Apple drops support for the first-gen rMBP after the refresh comes this June. But I doubt that will happen
I don't have IR and i looked for it - hard. I'm happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leman View Post
CPU is still responsible for most of the drawing. Don't believe me? Open Safari and activity monitor, scroll a webpage up and down rapidly and observe the WindowServer CPU usage.

If you have lag when running multiple active application across different spaces , the GPU is not a problem as invisible spaces are never actually getting drawn. The problem is context switching and caching as well as - when you switch to a different space, the OS often has to reload and recompute the UI - which in total is an expensive operation, especially on a retina screen. This could be solved by more aggressive caching at the cost of RAM usage. And if you were doing your tests having Mission Control open - then yes, you will run into performance limits soon, as OS X attempts to update every application in real time.

The bottom line: in order to have a better view on where the software ends and the hardware starts one needs to understand the concepts behind UI programming - especially OS X Cocoa. A non-programmer will very quickly confuse the role of CPU and GPU. Just because something is visible on the screen, it does not mean that its causing the GPU to work hard.
this is so well put. kudos
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 08:24 PM   #16
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It's incapable. That's why Apple makes it. They like their computers to be inoperable so you can't see the other defects /s


Though I've never had any issues.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:51 AM   #17
walkie
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Didn't you read? discrete GPU is disabled all the time, even when running Adobe Illustrator. :-)
If the discrete GPU is rarely used we should buy the 13" model and save some money .
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:55 AM   #18
M5RahuL
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No such issues with mine... It's probably the best portable computer I've bought to date!!
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 02:04 AM   #19
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First gen Apple products are always a bit buggy. That's why I'm eager to buy the next gen retina.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 02:29 AM   #20
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The HD4000 can do it. I use a 2560x1440 Apple Cinema Display all the time with my 13" MBP. It's not a monster, but it works. No real lag. Sometimes some lag when working with very large images, but that lag is present no matter WHAT the screen resolution is, as no matter what the photo editing software has to manipulate all the pixels in the image.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 02:32 AM   #21
walkie
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Originally Posted by leman View Post
CPU is still responsible for most of the drawing. Don't believe me? Open Safari and activity monitor, scroll a webpage up and down rapidly and observe the WindowServer CPU usage.

If you have lag when running multiple active application across different spaces , the GPU is not a problem as invisible spaces are never actually getting drawn. The problem is context switching and caching as well as - when you switch to a different space, the OS often has to reload and recompute the UI - which in total is an expensive operation, especially on a retina screen. This could be solved by more aggressive caching at the cost of RAM usage. And if you were doing your tests having Mission Control open - then yes, you will run into performance limits soon, as OS X attempts to update every application in real time.

The bottom line: in order to have a better view on where the software ends and the hardware starts one needs to understand the concepts behind UI programming - especially OS X Cocoa. A non-programmer will very quickly confuse the role of CPU and GPU. Just because something is visible on the screen, it does not mean that its causing the GPU to work hard.
In the past CPU used to make almost all graphic and 3D rendering in conjunction with the GPU, nowadays this is almost done by GPU's alone so that CPU's can focus most of their power on the rest of the tasks, that's why you no longer need to use your CPU for playing a HD 1080 video, you can check this by playing a HD video and looking at the CPU monitoring tool, you won't see a peak as in the past, GPU is a graphic dedicated CPU.

Last edited by walkie; Jan 24, 2013 at 02:46 AM.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 03:45 AM   #22
Valkyre
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The machine you tested had the EFI bug.

It is more than evident... crystal clear i would say....

The machine does not have problem to drive its display.... for crying out loud when you can play a game at 2880x1800 with everything on high and 30 frames per second, you sure as hell can drag windows and resize them without lagging...

This is poor poor software implementation. The machine can drive up to 4 displays with no problems and suddenly this is a hardware problem?
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:00 AM   #23
Ploki
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Originally Posted by walkie View Post
If the discrete GPU is rarely used we should buy the 13" model and save some money .
Of course... But you won't game on it.

For normal use integrated in fact is enough. People were able to run 2560*1600 30" monster of FAR WORSE graphic processors.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:08 AM   #24
Radiating
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Originally Posted by walkie View Post
You know I've been reading these days all the threads about rMBP since I plan to buy one, today I went to the Apple Store and played with two 15" 2.3 8G rMBP's, I opened 5 spaces, in one space I had iTunes playing with the 3D effect visualizer, in another space had safari playing a HD video, and on the others spaces I had apps such as Pages/Logic/Calendar opened but they were not accessing 3D, guess what?, the rMBP had hard time when swapping among spaces, the 3D iTunes effect was slow and the video from YouTube was stuttering, even typing was extremely lagging while having all these apps running at the same time, dragging a window or scrolling was slow, and the CPU Monitor reported very low usage on every 8 CPU instances, so CPU speed was not determinant in this test, I made this test on 2 rMBP's to rule out a defective machine, this test was done on the recommended retina resolution, I have never experienced this kind of lag on my old early 2010 iMac, even running 2 difference virtual machines Windows/Linux at the same time in difference spaces.

I also made a test loading safari with web pages containing lot of pictures and graphics elements and I was able to see a kind of lag in some of them, specially those with hi resolution pictures.

I know I had the impression this was software issue but this tests make me think, it seems that rMBP is really pushing the limits of its GPU, and now I don't know what to do whether to buy now or wait for a refresh.

What do you rMBP owners think?
Newsflash: My non-retina 2011 maxed out MacBook actually lags EVEN MORE than what you describe when performing the same amount of over the top actions.

People try to blame 'new fangled' technology for extreme issues which have always existed yet have been ignored before.

My rMBP has NEVER EVER even ONCE had any issues with stuttering or lag. At all, and I'm the type to have 200 safari windows open, 10 tabs in photoshop, a video game in the background, 3 words processing apps, etc etc.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:16 AM   #25
Ploki
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Newsflash: My non-retina 2011 maxed out MacBook actually lags EVEN MORE than what you describe when performing the same amount of over the top actions.

People try to blame 'new fangled' technology for extreme issues which have always existed yet have been ignored before.

My rMBP has NEVER EVER even ONCE had any issues with stuttering or lag. At all, and I'm the type to have 200 safari windows open, 10 tabs in photoshop, a video game in the background, 3 words processing apps, etc etc.
http://macperformanceguide.com/AppleCoreRot-intro.html
OS X is going <<-<.<<dsč,a
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