Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jan 24, 2013, 03:11 AM   #26
Happybunny
macrumors 68000
 
Happybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post

What can be done about it? Why is Germany better than most countries lately? Xenophobia is a "natural", if distressing, reaction to unemployment.
Another simple answer is that Germany created these types of jobs ie manufacturing based on quality. Where as the UK among others choose the path of Financial Markets/Short term agenda, Property prices.
ie Masters of the Universe scum.
__________________
'You cannot undo history, but you can learn from it'
Happybunny is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 03:46 AM   #27
niuniu
Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: A man of the people. The right sort of people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
Another simple answer is that Germany created these types of jobs ie manufacturing based on quality. Where as the UK among others choose the path of Financial Markets/Short term agenda, Property prices.
ie Masters of the Universe scum.
And now the land owning class pass their wealth from generation to generation without any creation. They simply leech off the land, many aren't even residents in the UK any longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AhmedFaisal
I have no beef with the average Brit. But your governments have been a collective pain in our continental arse ever since that bat***** crazy harlot Thatcher and maybe even before then.
Britain is horribly represented politically..

Tories time round got into power with around 23% of the vote, add UKIP and some other nuts and you can only take real Euroskeptics up to around 35% of the electorate.

The majority of the UK is happy with the harmonisation of Europe and love the benefits of the common market, but they're too apathetic to vote or voice themselves.

Which is why we continually end up getting represented by right-wing and center-right points of view. Brits are heavily ingrained socially that the upper-class have the right to rule and there's nothing you can do about it no matter how much they make a mess of the country.

Edit: Dawkin's quote today was spot on, and really reveals the xenophobic populism behind the EU referendum tactic..

RichardDawkins: In UK We elect MPs to decide complex issues. Why a plebiscite on, of ALL things, a subect as complex & hard to understand as EU membership?

Last edited by niuniu; Jan 24, 2013 at 03:55 AM.
niuniu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:12 AM   #28
Happybunny
macrumors 68000
 
Happybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
EU diplomats and officials said Merkel, who is keen to keep Britain in the EU, would drive the hardest of bargains amid acute concern that Cameron had plunged the EU into years of uncertainty when the paramount priority for the others is to recover from the euro crisis.

Other EU leaders showed the strength of opposition to the prime minister as they lined up to declare there would be no "cherry-picking", nor "à la carte" terms tailored to suit the British. Cameron's only whole-hearted backing came from the prime minister of the Czech Republic while his allies, the prime ministers of Sweden and the Netherlands, sat on the fence. The leader of Austria's far-right Freedom party was the only other political figure in Europe to follow suit, calling for a referendum on whether the country should give up the euro and leave the EU, saying he was inspired by Cameron.

The French president, François Hollande, told his cabinet in Paris that being an EU member "brought obligations", according to an Elysée Palace spokeswoman.

Hollande said it was "not possible to negotiate on Europe" or use a referendum to "diminish it".

"The United Kingdom can decide perfectly well by a referendum to stay or leave the European Union, it's a decision for the leaders and the British people to make," Hollande said during a visit to Grenoble.

"But what I say, in the name of France, and as a European, is that it's not possible to negotiate Europe to make that referendum. Europe has to be accepted as it is. We can make it evolve tomorrow, but we cannot dismiss it or diminish it under the pretext of proposing to stay in it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...merkel-cameron

I read most of the English papers today, and I do feel that they are reading far to much into Merkel's comments. Plus Merkel might not be leader of Germany, in the future.

I watched Dutch TV last night and Mark Rutten was asked about his support for the UK, he said it will all come down to what they ask.
But he did say that the UK will lose it's rebate, too many other countries see that as unfair. He also made the point that while major speeches by political leaders grab the headlines, the real power of the EU is in the corridors of Brussels. He said that the chances were that the EU would look very different in 2 to 3 years as Financial power is held by ECB. The fact of the matter is that the countries of the Euro zone, are locked into ever more integration not less.
__________________
'You cannot undo history, but you can learn from it'
Happybunny is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:29 AM   #29
niuniu
Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: A man of the people. The right sort of people.
@ 'bunny, yes our press is having a field day this morning. You'd almost think Cameron the master re-negotiator had renegotiated his renegotiations.

Sun says Merkel backs new deal with Cameron. Times says business backs Cameron for a mandate on Europe. Telegraph reckons Cameron is praised for his gutsy speech.

Daily Star had a lot of half naked women.

Only the Inde seemed to get a handle on their reporting this morning.
niuniu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:35 AM   #30
Happybunny
macrumors 68000
 
Happybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
a lot of half naked women.
I can honestly say there is nothing wrong with half naked ladies.
__________________
'You cannot undo history, but you can learn from it'
Happybunny is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:58 AM   #31
Mord
macrumors G4
 
Mord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Old York
Just shows desperation given the votes the tories have been haemorrhaging to UKIP.

Such a referendum wouldn't pass, it's a token gesture to try and unite the political right and one I hope will fail.
Mord is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:10 AM   #32
jeremy h
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mord View Post
Just shows desperation given the votes the tories have been haemorrhaging to UKIP.

Such a referendum wouldn't pass, it's a token gesture to try and unite the political right and one I hope will fail.
I tend to agree and would add that as Skunk has suggested 4 years is a long time and like most people I know here, I would personally vote to stay in if there was a referendum. The British are a nation of moaners but a very pragmatic nation of moaners.

Also - If you actually ignore all the unpleasant rhetoric that emanates from here ( Farage's attack on Van Rompuy was utterly inexcusable for example) and just look at our actual actions (rather than all the hot air) we're actually reasonably good Europeans. (Well down the naughty list of those who ignore or break EU law / directives, happy to allow foreign takeovers, opening our borders before others etc etc)

I can though, understand why we're not liked (and I cringe at our obstructionist negotiating tactics) but I sometimes think that it suits everyone to have a 'bad boy' in any club or project who articulates what some others are thinking – it can temper the more zealous members. After all it should be remembered that the EU is more than just the relationship between France and Germany and there's an increasing democratic deficit developing which is currently masked by the economic firefighting that's going on. At some point this will become an issue and will have to be addressed.

Also just to add that interestingly some news that was buried in all the noise about Cameron's speech yesterday was the news that we've now become Germany's biggest trading partner.

Interesting times ahead methinks.
jeremy h is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:12 AM   #33
twietee
macrumors 68040
 
twietee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Haven't followed Cameron's speech closely, since it obviously seems like the populistic thing to say. I wouldn't mind it too much if he hadn't give away such an excellent groundwork for the 'EU bureaucrats' to lay low and keep the same ol' procedure as usual. WE DESPERATELY NEED a reorganisation of the EU. To use it for ones own agenda, well, quite a common thing on the continent as well. Besides that, I don't like the 'I want our money back!' attitude at all - and if it's only this they're heading for: out you go, please.

And, as a German, I wouldn't say we're doing good in how we manage the country, although said graph may suggest so. Not at all, such a waste of talent and opportunities, it makes one sick.
twietee is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:58 AM   #34
Peterkro
macrumors 68020
 
Peterkro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Communard de Londres
There is no way this is going to fly.The lying bastard Liberal Democrats are gone their vote has collapsed to the point they are losing their deposits in by-elections,Cameron is doing this to out flank UKIP and the more rabid members of the Tory party.
The real powers here,the U.S. state and most importantly the City of London are almost to a corporation agin it and what they want they'll get. Camerons attempt at populism will come back and bite him in the arse.
Peterkro is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 06:09 AM   #35
Happybunny
macrumors 68000
 
Happybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
I tend to agree and would add that as Skunk has suggested 4 years is a long time and like most people I know here, I would personally vote to stay in if there was a referendum. The British are a nation of moaners but a very pragmatic nation of moaners.
I think that it was your Harold Wilson who said a week is a long time in politics, four years is an eternity. I do how ever think that the landscape will be totally different, the countries of the Euro will have by then formed a harmonised banking union. All members of the core group of Euro countries recognize that they need more intergation not less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
- If you actually ignore all the unpleasant rhetoric that emanates from here ( Farage's attack on Van Rompuy was utterly inexcusable for example) and just look at our actual actions (rather than all the hot air) we're actually reasonably good Europeans. (Well down the naughty list of those who ignore or break EU law / directives, happy to allow foreign takeovers, opening our borders before others etc etc)

I can though, understand why we're not liked (and I cringe at our obstructionist negotiating tactics) but I sometimes think that it suits everyone to have a 'bad boy' in any club or project who articulates what some others are thinking – it can temper the more zealous members. After all it should be remembered that the EU is more than just the relationship between France and Germany and there's an increasing democratic deficit developing which is currently masked by the economic firefighting that's going on. At some point this will become an issue and will have to be addressed.

Also just to add that interestingly some news that was buried in all the noise about Cameron's speech yesterday was the news that we've now become Germany's biggest trading partner.

Interesting times ahead methinks.
I do think that you are right every club does need a bad boy, I'm just not sure that's you. We have Italy for that.
It is true that the EU is far more than Franco German alliance, but at least they are trying to build something for the future. When I see the UK acting out in the EU I always think of the Quote out of Batman 'Some men just want to watch the world burn'

One set of trade figures, and how much of that trade was German companies trading with other German companies?


But I agree there are going to be interesting times ahead.
__________________
'You cannot undo history, but you can learn from it'
Happybunny is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 07:25 AM   #36
twietee
macrumors 68040
 
twietee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
I do think that you are right every club does need a bad boy, I'm just not sure that's you. We have Italy for that.
Italy the bad boy? Don't see it at all. At least as long as Greece is still available. Well, and all the rest of the lazy bunch of southern Europeans

I was actually quite surprised: Italy contributes actually most of all the EU members. (Well, i.e. Germany pays more, but also receives a lot. Too lazy/busy for searching proof/linky but that's wha I read in a serious newspaper)
twietee is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 07:41 AM   #37
Happybunny
macrumors 68000
 
Happybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by twietee View Post
Italy the bad boy? Don't see it at all. At least as long as Greece is still available. Well, and all the rest of the lazy bunch of southern Europeans

I was actually quite surprised: Italy contributes actually most of all the EU members. (Well, i.e. Germany pays more, but also receives a lot. Too lazy/busy for searching proof/linky but that's wha I read in a serious newspaper)
You are absolutely right, I should have put Greece. What was I thinking to have forgotten them so soon.

About EU contributions every country thinks that they are the one who pays more than every body else.
The PVV here in the Netherlands is constantly pointing out that we pay more to the EU, than all the other countries.
__________________
'You cannot undo history, but you can learn from it'
Happybunny is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 07:58 AM   #38
twietee
macrumors 68040
 
twietee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
About EU contributions every country thinks that they are the one who pays more than every body else.
The PVV here in the Netherlands is constantly pointing out that we pay more to the EU, than all the other countries.
Well, in the end it's not just about how much you pay, but also about how much you receive. And regarding this, Italy seems to contribute the most / made the worst deal.
twietee is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 08:40 AM   #39
Bug-Creator
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Germany
(youth unemployment)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
Why is Germany better than most countries lately?
The main reason is (IMO) that the vast majority of youth not opting for university will look for an apprenticeship with a company. Those normally go for 3.5 years and include 1-2 days of school a week.

Afterwards most of those just switch to a regular job in that same company and those who don't do have a proffession and some work experience.

Those 7.9% are either the absolute bottom of the barrel or just hanging between school / apprentinceship / real job.
Bug-Creator is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 11:22 AM   #40
oscillatewildly
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 23 Railway Cuttings
The BS in the media and elsewhere goes both ways; anyone wanting to get out being labelled a xenophobic right wing nutter. Suggest a country can absorb a certain number of additional people per year before problems and you are branded a card carrying member of the Guild of Cross Burners. For a Little Island that dislikes foreigners, we sure make it easy for them to buy our companies and property. Mainland Europe, like most, tries to divert attention from its own problems, the picture of the UK it paints is part of the diversion.

The UK will not take the Euro, those with the Euro must move closer; the break is coming, vote or no vote. Strange idea, the UK could just trade with the Euro states/State. Are VW, BMW, Mercedes, Sennheiser etc. going to stop doing business? The EU doesn't have a monopoly on regulation, so playing silly buggers would be stupid.

I'm for out and being adults, but politicians are involved.

Cheers,
OW
__________________
He always beat me at Subbuteo ‘Cause he ‘flicked to kick’ And I didn't know
oscillatewildly is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 11:36 AM   #41
Ugg
macrumors 68000
 
Ugg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Penryn
Send a message via AIM to Ugg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug-Creator View Post
(youth unemployment)


The main reason is (IMO) that the vast majority of youth not opting for university will look for an apprenticeship with a company. Those normally go for 3.5 years and include 1-2 days of school a week.

Afterwards most of those just switch to a regular job in that same company and those who don't do have a proffession and some work experience.

Those 7.9% are either the absolute bottom of the barrel or just hanging between school / apprentinceship / real job.
That is a huge benefit of Germany's economic system.

News out of Spain puts its unemployment as the highest ever with no sign of improvement. Spain, France and Italy as well as others have all chosen to protect older workers at the expense of younger ones. Germany sees younger people as assets, not liabilities. Reform in Germany also seems to be more gradual and while poverty seems to be increasing as a result of Schroeder's and Merkels reforms, it's not nearly as devastating as it is in the other countries and comes nothing close to the youth throwaway level in GB.

Germany does rely heavily on exports though and that is not always a good thing but what amazes me is how many relatively low value products I see here in the US. From wine glasses to plant pots, somehow the Germans have been able to find a way to manufacture things cheaply. Not as cheaply as the Chinese, but awful darned close. In the end it's all about innovation and the constant and careful evaluation of ones business practices that matter.
__________________
Check out <Peter's family tree!
Ugg is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 11:50 AM   #42
niuniu
Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: A man of the people. The right sort of people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oscillatewildly View Post
For a Little Island that dislikes foreigners, we sure make it easy for them to buy our companies and property.
How often do you see some thinly veiled jibe in the papers about a Russian buying up London? The moaners couldn't afford those sorts of properties, so what difference does it make to them.

The xenophobia in Britain is very real, and driven by the resentful, unsuccessful and unlucky in our society for the most part. Populist politicians avoid pandering to them, except when they need their votes. Like now.

The opportunities in the UK for Brits are huge compared to most other societies, so anytime I see finger pointing at foreigners I personally put it down to misplaced blame.

There is a huge problem with British firms being run into the ground by British executives. 1000's of jobs get culled with each firm that goes under. That's what we should be focusing on - innovation. Europe is a political distraction and I feel sorry for the people who are about to get caught up in the hype of it all in the coming years.
niuniu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 11:50 AM   #43
oscillatewildly
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 23 Railway Cuttings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugg View Post

...

Germany does rely heavily on exports though and that is not always a good thing but what amazes me is how many relatively low value products I see here in the US. From wine glasses to plant pots, somehow the Germans have been able to find a way to manufacture things cheaply. Not as cheaply as the Chinese, but awful darned close. In the end it's all about innovation and the constant and careful evaluation of ones business practices that matter.
How's the Euro v the Mark?
__________________
He always beat me at Subbuteo ‘Cause he ‘flicked to kick’ And I didn't know
oscillatewildly is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 11:52 AM   #44
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
That is a huge benefit of Germany's economic system.

News out of Spain puts its unemployment as the highest ever with no sign of improvement. Spain, France and Italy as well as others have all chosen to protect older workers at the expense of younger ones. Germany sees younger people as assets, not liabilities. Reform in Germany also seems to be more gradual and while poverty seems to be increasing as a result of Schroeder's and Merkels reforms, it's not nearly as devastating as it is in the other countries and comes nothing close to the youth throwaway level in GB.

Germany does rely heavily on exports though and that is not always a good thing but what amazes me is how many relatively low value products I see here in the US. From wine glasses to plant pots, somehow the Germans have been able to find a way to manufacture things cheaply. Not as cheaply as the Chinese, but awful darned close. In the end it's all about innovation and the constant and careful evaluation of ones business practices that matter.
It's all about diversity. Germany can make cheap goods (apparently, and obviously they would be able to without problems) and also roll out $120,000 BMWs.

The US has the same advantage. The key to a prosperous economy in the long term is not specializing in one thing, but being good at many things and able to retool when needed.
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:01 PM   #45
twietee
macrumors 68040
 
twietee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by oscillatewildly View Post
How's the Euro v the Mark?
It's not that easy actually. Germany, as pointed out already, as the former 'Exportweltmeister' - a term they used quite proudly around here, profits enormously by a weak Euro "caused" by weak member states, too.

Although I see some short term advantages in some industries profiting by unemployed - and desillusioned - young and skilled folks, the youth unemployment may very well cause an implosion of the system as it works right now. It wouldn't be unjust, too. That said, some of these states, i.e. Spain, as a second, hidden, job market within the tourism or whatnot sector. Much, much more than here in Germany. These numbers don't show up in the stats of course.

Last edited by twietee; Jan 24, 2013 at 12:08 PM.
twietee is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:13 PM   #46
niuniu
Thread Starter
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: A man of the people. The right sort of people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
The key to a prosperous economy in the long term is not specializing in one thing, but being good at many things and able to retool when needed.
Precisely. In terms of the UK, British policy is actually London policy, financial services policy.

Westminster hasn't got a credible plan for the rest of the country which is why we're dying.

A great example of how pathetic we are; we discover material graphene, yet it takes 5 years before the government throw £5mill to research potential uses for it. By the time the government took it seriously (with a further £38mill in 2011), the rest of the world already held the majority of patents relating to use of graphene, which we had a head start on.

Graphene patents

China 2204
US 1754
S Korea 1106
UK 54
niuniu is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:16 PM   #47
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
Precisely. In terms of the UK, British policy is actually London policy, financial services policy.

Westminster hasn't got a credible plan for the rest of the country which is why we're dying.

A great example of how pathetic we are; we discover material graphene, yet it takes 5 years before the government throw £5mill to research potential uses for it. By the time the government took it seriously (with a further £38mill in 2011), the rest of the world already held the majority of patents relating to use of graphene, which we had a head start on.

Graphene patents

China 2204
US 1754
S Korea 1106
UK 54
Some of the few British companies I can think of are like, Lipton, BAS, BP. Obviously there are others, but yeah I think one of the UK's biggest problems is simply not making a whole lot of stuff and unresponsive government, as you just highlighted.
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:37 PM   #48
oscillatewildly
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 23 Railway Cuttings
niuniu - I was editing my previous post to include a reply and got logged out:

Per niuniu

How often do you see some thinly veiled jibe in the papers about a Russian buying up London? The moaners couldn't afford those sorts of properties, so what difference does it make to them.

Others can afford them and there is a knock on.

The xenophobia in Britain is very real, and driven by the resentful, unsuccessful and unlucky in our society for the most part. Populist politicians avoid pandering to them, except when they need their votes. Like now.

A problem across Europe, and not the majority in the UK.

The opportunities in the UK for Brits are huge compared to most other societies, so anytime I see finger pointing at foreigners I personally put it down to misplaced blame.

I'd rather look at each case.

There is a huge problem with British firms being run into the ground by British executives. 1000's of jobs get culled with each firm that goes under. That's what we should be focusing on - innovation. Europe is a political distraction and I feel sorry for the people who are about to get caught up in the hype of it all in the coming years.

There are some bad executives, as there are some bad employees elsewhere in the workforce and some bad unions/union leaders.

Cheers,
OW
__________________
He always beat me at Subbuteo ‘Cause he ‘flicked to kick’ And I didn't know
oscillatewildly is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:46 PM   #49
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
How often do you see some thinly veiled jibe in the papers about a Russian buying up London? The moaners couldn't afford those sorts of properties, so what difference does it make to them.
The real solution is to build a lot more houses so that people have enough places to live. The current status quo is a disgrace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mord View Post
Just shows desperation given the votes the tories have been haemorrhaging to UKIP.

Such a referendum wouldn't pass, it's a token gesture to try and unite the political right and one I hope will fail.
I think it makes the Labour party the natural party of business.
__________________
If they have to tell you every day they are fair you can bet they arent, if they tell you they are balanced then you should know they are not - Don't Hurt me
Eraserhead is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:09 PM   #50
jnpy!$4g3cwk
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug-Creator View Post
(youth unemployment)


The main reason is (IMO) that the vast majority of youth not opting for university will look for an apprenticeship with a company. Those normally go for 3.5 years and include 1-2 days of school a week.
How are those apprenticeships funded? In recent years, the apprenticeship model has faded in the U.S. for some reason.
jnpy!$4g3cwk is online now   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:13 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC