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Old Jan 22, 2013, 11:44 AM   #26
palpatine
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Originally Posted by darngooddesign View Post
Try using the smartcover in portrait mode. I have one and you can't, but you can use alternate cases just like you can with the Surface. Widescreen tablets are based around landscape use and this has nothing to do with the kickstand or keyboard cover.

Of course a salesperson is going to push the keyboard cover, duh. Its an accessory, and accessories have high profit margins.

The Surface RT is the same price as the iPad 4.
But, the smartcover for the iPad is an accessory as well, and there is not a kickstand for the iPad, which points to its more flexible design. If you want to use the Surface in portrait mode, it is just not a pleasant experience.

As for the Surface RT price, you pay the same as you would for an iPad 4 (for the same amount of storage, by the way). Yes. That's exactly why I cannot see how anyone would want it. Go Android (if we are talking about Apple alternatives) and you get an arguably better device (the Nexus 10) for $100 less. LOL. The Surface is overpriced and underperforms, not to mention the poor design choices I have already mentioned.
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 12:13 PM   #27
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But, the smartcover for the iPad is an accessory as well, and there is not a kickstand for the iPad, which points to its more flexible design. If you want to use the Surface in portrait mode, it is just not a pleasant experience.

As for the Surface RT price, you pay the same as you would for an iPad 4 (for the same amount of storage, by the way). Yes. That's exactly why I cannot see how anyone would want it. Go Android (if we are talking about Apple alternatives) and you get an arguably better device (the Nexus 10) for $100 less. LOL. The Surface is overpriced and underperforms, not to mention the poor design choices I have already mentioned.
The fact that it's an accessory is the point. AppleRobert included it in the price to show that the Surface was a worse value when the prices are the same; you get 2-3GB more with the Surface as it comes with 16GB free and the iPad comes with around 13GB free.

You get the Surface when you want both Office, not an Office alternative, and if you have other Windows computers because it integrates better with Microsofts ecosystem of cloud services. Windows 8 uses the widescreen better than Android with its 1/3 - 2/3 method for displaying two apps at the same time.
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 12:39 PM   #28
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The fact that it's an accessory is the point. AppleRobert included it in the price to show that the Surface was a worse value when the prices are the same; you get 2-3GB more with the Surface as it comes with 16GB free and the iPad comes with around 13GB free.

You get the Surface when you want both Office, not an Office alternative, and if you have other Windows computers because it integrates better with Microsofts ecosystem of cloud services. Windows 8 uses the widescreen better than Android with its 1/3 - 2/3 method for displaying two apps at the same time.
I guess we are missing the "point," then, because I see the Surface as designed around a particular use case (landscape + keyboard). Even without the accessory, you have the kickstand, which basically tells you "use me in landscape, or don't use me at all." I see that as a limiting factor.

If you don't buy the accessory for the Surface, I think you are missing out on a lot with the tablet. If you don't buy the smartcover for the iPad, you may not even notice. It doesn't really matter.

As for the storage, you are correct that the Surface gets a few more gigabytes. And, I'll even grant that the Surface has more potential than Android, and possibly more potential than the iPad. But, the Surface in 2013? No way. Even the Office experience, by the way, is sub-par, so I strongly recommend that people try it before they buy it.

If you have a chance to use one, I encourage you to put it through its paces. I would be quite surprised if you come away thinking it is a better experience for the price than an equivalent iOS or Android product. And, I am not even talking here about the anemic appstore, which is a whole other issue.
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:04 PM   #29
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Why is everyone comparing apples smart cover to the MS keyboard?
They serve two totally different purposes, theres just no comparison. Yes they are both accessories but one is a Peripheral specifically design to aid and assist in the surface's core function in the most practical way, while the other is a simple dog-gon dust cover, c'mon now a pillow case can serve the same purpose...
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:11 PM   #30
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...while the other is a simple dog-gon dust cover, c'mon now a pillow case can serve the same purpose...
A pillow case doesn't do a very good job as a stand for the iPad.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 09:25 AM   #31
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A pillow case doesn't do a very good job as a stand for the iPad.
Yes it does you just have to gather up the extra material into a ball and then rest the ipad aginst it, have some imagination.....
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 10:09 AM   #32
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I guess we are missing the "point," then, because I see the Surface as designed around a particular use case (landscape + keyboard). Even without the accessory, you have the kickstand, which basically tells you "use me in landscape, or don't use me at all." I see that as a limiting factor.

If you don't buy the accessory for the Surface, I think you are missing out on a lot with the tablet. If you don't buy the smartcover for the iPad, you may not even notice. It doesn't really matter.

As for the storage, you are correct that the Surface gets a few more gigabytes. And, I'll even grant that the Surface has more potential than Android, and possibly more potential than the iPad. But, the Surface in 2013? No way. Even the Office experience, by the way, is sub-par, so I strongly recommend that people try it before they buy it.

If you have a chance to use one, I encourage you to put it through its paces. I would be quite surprised if you come away thinking it is a better experience for the price than an equivalent iOS or Android product. And, I am not even talking here about the anemic appstore, which is a whole other issue.
I don't understand how the kickstand is a limiting factor. When it's closed, you can't even tell that it's there so it doesn't take anything away from the experience. When someone wants to watch or movie or surf the web while eating (i.e. me), you can just open the kickstand and forget about it. To achieve the same functionality with the ipad, you would need to purchase a case or stand.

I do agree that a lot of tasks on windows 8 seem to be more suitable in landscape but it's not impossible to use in portrait either. I think it's pretty useful to surf the web in landscape while using video chat in the smaller multi-tasking window. This isn't even possible on any IOS device.

Last edited by thetruth1985; Jan 23, 2013 at 11:59 AM.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 10:26 AM   #33
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We are testing several tablets and comparing them to iPads. So far iPad is still the best overall device.

On the way to my lab is a couple of dell tablets and in 2 weeks 2 of the new surface pro with keyboards.

I'll let you know what comes of it.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:20 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by darngooddesign View Post
Try using the smartcover in portrait mode. I have one and you can't, but you can use alternate cases just like you can with the Surface. Widescreen tablets are based around landscape use and this has nothing to do with the kickstand or keyboard cover.

Of course a salesperson is going to push the keyboard cover, duh. Its an accessory, and accessories have high profit margins.

The Surface RT is the same price as the iPad 4.
Smart Cover (on iPad) in portrait works just fine---guess I'm not sure why you're saying this---in fact, folded into it's natural 'triangle' form--it makes an excellent 'handle'

The Surface RT---which apparently (obviously) you haven't used, is all but absolutely worthless without the keyboard. Not so with the iPad. And when using the keyboard w/Surface, it's only position is landscape. As others have mentioned, the experience in portrait (as I use my iPad 95% of the time) is utterly useless....and have you attempted to look at third party/case accessories for Surface? They're just not available. Such a poor selection that mirrors their app selection.

I'm excited to see the performance of the Surface Pro---but as others have mentioned, Windows RT literally eats 12GB of storage from your device. Access to the SD card is VERY slow compared to the onboard NAND---and the price, when accompanied by a keypad of choice is identical to that of a low end Mac Book Air. In my opinion---for MS to make this work---they need to halve that Surface Pro price and knock 30-40% off the RT. At $299/349 for the RT and $649/729 for the Pro---they just MAY sell some kit. Otherwise, the 'other' OEMs offerings....from the Lenovo Yoga to Dell's weird hybrid design...all out class Window's offering IMHO. Time will tell---and I, for one, welcome a high end competitor to the iPad. This will continue to drive Apple's innovation and is best for all of us.

J
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:28 AM   #35
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We are testing several tablets and comparing them to iPads. So far iPad is still the best overall device.

On the way to my lab is a couple of dell tablets and in 2 weeks 2 of the new surface pro with keyboards.

I'll let you know what comes of it.
purpose? just curious


I wonder how American Airlines, who bought Galaxy Notes just weeks before the Mini was announced, is doing.

Last edited by danpass; Jan 23, 2013 at 12:13 PM.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:58 AM   #36
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Smart Cover (on iPad) in portrait works just fine---guess I'm not sure why you're saying this---in fact, folded into it's natural 'triangle' form--it makes an excellent 'handle'

The Surface RT---which apparently (obviously) you haven't used, is all but absolutely worthless without the keyboard. Not so with the iPad. And when using the keyboard w/Surface, it's only position is landscape. As others have mentioned, the experience in portrait (as I use my iPad 95% of the time) is utterly useless....and have you attempted to look at third party/case accessories for Surface? They're just not available. Such a poor selection that mirrors their app selection.

I'm excited to see the performance of the Surface Pro---but as others have mentioned, Windows RT literally eats 12GB of storage from your device. Access to the SD card is VERY slow compared to the onboard NAND---and the price, when accompanied by a keypad of choice is identical to that of a low end Mac Book Air. In my opinion---for MS to make this work---they need to halve that Surface Pro price and knock 30-40% off the RT. At $299/349 for the RT and $649/729 for the Pro---they just MAY sell some kit. Otherwise, the 'other' OEMs offerings....from the Lenovo Yoga to Dell's weird hybrid design...all out class Window's offering IMHO. Time will tell---and I, for one, welcome a high end competitor to the iPad. This will continue to drive Apple's innovation and is best for all of us.

J
Well if the Surface Pro's price of $899 bothers you, you should be advocating to lower the price for all ultrabooks. There is no tablet/notebook on the market that has a i5 processor, 4gb ram, and a wacom digitizer for $649. The Lenovo Yoga that you mention (and I'm assuming you are talking about the 11s) will start at $799 with a 768p screen and no active digitizer for handwriting. Now how is this more attractive than the Surface Pro?

Also, how is the Surface RT worthless without the keyboard? I've owned one before and the on-screen keyboard gave me no problems. The on-screen worked fine in M$ office even though I wouldn't dare type an essay on a touch screen. If I was using Pages on my Ipad 4, I would feel the same way. So does that mean that the Ipad is useless without a bluetooth keyboard?

Last edited by thetruth1985; Jan 23, 2013 at 12:09 PM.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 12:30 PM   #37
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I wanted to share my experience so others who may be on the fence about a purchase have some feedback.

I have had a variety of iPad's and Apple devices in my household in the past few years. My most recent Apple purchase was a iPad Mini. I loved the form factor and the screen wasn't too bad but I had an opportunity to trade for a Microsft Surface with a touch keyboard so I jumped at it.

The reason for wanting the trade is I find I am getting a little bored with IOS (I also have an iPhone). This trade was one if the worst mistakes I have ever made and I cannot wait to go back to an iPad.

The main issue I have with the surface is how sluggish everything is when compared to the iPad. Basic searching,clicking links, navigating between tabs etc. etc. just seem more sluggish on the Surface. It is not a night and day thing but it was getting to the point where I found I was using my iPhone to look things up on the Internet rather than using the Surface.

The only time I found the Surface tolerable is when it is used with the keyboard. As a tablet, surfing in bed using touch instead of the keyboard etc it is a major fail. Again sluggish to respond to input, form factor not as easy to hold, and operating system is horrible. If you use the metro Internet explorer the touch keyboard will pop up when you touch the screen but if you are on the desktop and launch Internet explorer the process of launching the touch keyboard is manual. The best way to describe the operating systems is two different operating systems in one that don't work together well. The same can be said as a tablet - two different hardware devices that don't work together well.

If you are looking for a netbook and plan on using the Surface with the keyboard all the time it is ok based on the fact that it is easy to transport, the build quality is fantastic, and the battery life is good.

If you want a tablet that is easy to use in all situations to supplement your desktop or laptop the iPad is hands down the device to get. I now know that I took how great the iPad is for granted. It took using an inferior device to make me appreciate Apple products that much more.

For those of you who may respond saying it may be the user and not the device I work in IT and I am very tech savvy - to me the Surface is inferior when compared to the iPad.
I went from an iPad 3 to a Surface and did not have any issues with sluggishness of the keyboard or manipulation of the system that you found. App loading was a different story but only seemed to be extra long on a first boot. I even find the kinetic scrolling to be better on the Surface than on the iPad. Overall I am happy with it and do not even touch my iPad now.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 01:52 PM   #38
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Smart Cover (on iPad) in portrait works just fine---guess I'm not sure why you're saying this---in fact, folded into it's natural 'triangle' form--it makes an excellent 'handle'
As a stand, not as a handle.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 02:56 PM   #39
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If you know what you like, you give the Surface a try, and you find it fits your needs, then by all means, please go ahead and buy it. All I am saying is that in my experience with the device it had a number of horrible issues (lack of screen responsiveness, inability to smoothly switch with orientation, lack of features in Office, etc., etc.), and even if these things get worked out over time, it is still a device (in my opinion) geared towards use in landscape mode. If that is what you do, great. But, I like to use portrait mode a lot, and I prefer to have flexibility with the iPad.

Is the iPad perfect (for me)? No way. And, I am hoping someone will step up to offer a serious challenge. At this point, the Nexus 10 is a far better device than the Suface (and in many respects, better than the iPad), and as soon as it gets apps that will enable me to do my work on it, I may well switch. I had high expectations for the Surface, but besides the build quality, it fell far short.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:00 PM   #40
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Everyone talks about the Surfaces hardware/specs/performance compared to the iPad, but I really am more curious about software.

Software is just as important as hardware. Is there a site where I can browse what apps are available for the surface? Not just Windows RT software, but software that is designed specifically for the Surface, and look through it like Google Play and iTunes store?

I want to know what programs exist on the surface that offer things that you cant get on iPad or Android tablets.



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The main issue I have with the surface is how sluggish everything is when compared to the iPad. Basic searching,clicking links, navigating between tabs etc. etc. just seem more sluggish on the Surface.
I'd really like to see a youtube video of someone doing a side by side comparison with the surface and ipad or android tablet, doing speed tests. launching apps, opening web pages, etc...
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:17 PM   #41
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The Surface RT---which apparently (obviously) you haven't used, is all but absolutely worthless without the keyboard. Not so with the iPad. And when using the keyboard w/Surface, it's only position is landscape.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I've been using iPads since the first iPad came out in 2010, and I recently got a Surface as a gift. The Surface is just as usable without a keyboard as the iPad is. The only time I really want the keyboard is when using MS Office, since that's not really designed with a touch interface, but that's not even an option on the iPad. Otherwise, the keyboard is nice in exactly the same situations where an external keyboard is nice with an iPad, i.e. if you're going to do a bunch of typing. The Metro apps I've used are all just as touch friendly as their iPad equivalents.

I'm also not sure what your point is about portrait mode. All the iPad keyboard cases I've seen also only support landscape mode. That doesn't mean the iPad itself doesn't work in portrait mode, it just means most people find it more natural to work on text in landscape mode. This is even more true on the Surface since it has a higher aspect ratio than the iPad.

Note I'm not a Surface fanboy. Overall I prefer the iPad right now, as I stated in an earlier post in this thread. I just think the criticisms you're making are a little silly.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 05:31 PM   #42
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Surface by itself is fine. What happens when you need to get things done is perhaps not so good. I was tempted at first for Office alone but ultimately Surface is a bit of a one trick pony. You can edit Office documents natively and locally. That will have value for some. For everyone else, the breath and depth of applications for the Apple and Android must surely be a significant consideration.

BTW, I had a brief play with a Lenovo Yoga at the weekend. Compared to an iPad or one of the best Android devices, I felt the interface lacked fluidity (slight jerkiness when swiping between screens). That was more than a little off putting.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 06:14 PM   #43
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purpose? just curious
I run a technology lab and have personally deployed over 1000 iPads. It's my job to look for the next best thing and to advice on large purchases for companies. The current company I'm working for may end up purchasing 30,000 mobile devices before 2015. I type "may", because budgets change almost as fast as technology.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:27 AM   #44
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Tried out the surface at a Microsoft store.

I like how it's 16:9. This makes it better than the iPad for video IMO

I also liked that you can hook up a Bluetooth mouse.

I liked the integration with office.

My problem was lack of apps however the pro version should eliminate this problem.

It's a great device but I think it's going to appeal to a totally different customer than the ipad.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 09:24 AM   #45
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I don't think the Surface Pro is going to get any cheaper. ASUS is also coming out with an active digitizing tablet, the VivoTab. But it's $799 for an Atom processor, lower-rez 11" screen, 2GB ram, 64GB drive (+32GB cloud storage). It does incluse a more laptop-like keyboard base though. The 10.1" "Smart" version without the digitizing pen is $499.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 11:32 AM   #46
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I want to know what programs exist on the surface that offer things that you cant get on iPad or Android tablets.
I don't know of a way to browse without already having Windows 8. But this is how I generalize

Surface RT = cheap apps only
iPad + Android = cheap apps too, only way more cheap apps than the RT, which is why the RT isn't selling
Surface Pro = cheap apps OR legacy applications (which is what these cheap apps try to copy anyway) = a win. So instead of using Photoshop Touch with my finger and using my imagination to pretend it's really Photoshop, I can just use full-blown Photoshop. Instead of playing Order and Chaos and pretending I'm playing WoW, I can just play WoW

Those legacy applications are the game changer here because they elevate the quality of software expected on a tablet. Goodbye budget market with a million flashlight apps
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:40 PM   #47
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Bilbao,

I will not quote your reply to my post. Nice viewpoint and I would not choose the Surface over the iPad at this stage of the game either.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:06 PM   #48
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I am very interested in a Surface Pro so I can't wait to see some reviews and real hands-on experience.

Hopefully when it's released and people in this forum can post about their experiences those threads wont become more fodder for those people that seem to pounce on any thread to bash their "opposing platform" / company.
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