'Premeditated Flash Dump' of Apple Shares Behind Friday's Last-Second Slump, Says Trader

[aloshka]

Oops. Sorry guys my bad. I accidentally hit the wrong button and sold my apple stock. Lol

Btw, apple dropped, but checkout google? Huge spike instead. It's slowly leveling off to where both have been, but interesting.

[SmileyBlast!]

It was probably Samsung, Microsoft or Google. They had probably bought those 800,000 share a few years back so they still made a profit while driving Apple's share price down.

Total speculation I know but probable no?

[e-coli]

All the traders and brokerage houses are simply tanking the stock so they can run it back up. What's going on couldn't be more transparent. It's absurd. Buy the stock. You'll be handsomely rewarded, as will those who are gaming this market.

[aloshka]

Originally Posted by SmileyBlast!

It was probably Samsung, Microsoft or Google. They had probably bought those 800,000 share a few years back so they still made a profit while driving Apple's share price down.

Total speculation I know but probable no?

Probable, except I don't think Microsoft would invest in Google. Samsung maybe, maybe even google themselves (not sure if that's legal).

The only thing weird, is the spike in google happened a day before the drop in Apple. Unless there is a market delay of some sort, that's a bit weird.

[Dreamer2go]

that's some nice economics lesson there...
Yeah, supply and demand. Thanks to all those "shortings", I have enough to buy a few more shares hehe.

As someone pointed out, it's all stock manipulation. Why would everyone panic when Apple just had a record quarter???

[SteveW928]

More evidence things in Vegas (I mean Wall Street) run off rumor more than financials.

Think about it.... why would the sale of a bunch of shares of stock affect the price? Because gamblers (I mean 'investors') are watching that kind of stuff rather than things which really matter, like how Apple is actually doing, their products, decisions, etc. Apple's REAL value didn't change before and after.

As long as this is what we call 'investing' things aren't going to turn around. I think we need to implement some controls on the system to turn it back to investment... like time based criteria to be eligible for the full value when selling. For example, you buy stock in a company and it's only worth 50% if you were to sell it again immediately. This then progresses to 100% over say 6 months or a year. That would get rid of day-trading and cause people to actually consider the COMPANY and their PERFORMANCE rather than trying to figure out what the HERD OF IRRATIONAL 'INVESTORS' might be up to.

[aloshka]

Originally Posted by Dreamer2go

that's some nice economics lesson there...
Yeah, supply and demand. Thanks to all those "shortings", I have enough to buy a few more shares hehe.

As someone pointed out, it's all stock manipulation. Why would everyone panic when Apple just had a record quarter???

Mostly because I'm getting bored with everything Apple. iOS still looks identical as it did when it first launched. No personalization whatsoever. Mac hardware is still moving forward and is awesome, but the OS is still annoying for businesses. The biggest issue is why does it take 4-5 seconds to connect to a server and show it's contents. Windows is instant with SMB. Apple is even slow with AFP.

Anyway, not starting a flame war because this is completely my opinion and off topic.

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Originally Posted by SteveW928

More evidence things in Vegas (I mean Wall Street) run off rumor more than financials.


As long as this is what we call 'investing' things aren't going to turn around. I think we need to implement some controls on the system to turn it back to investment... like time based criteria to be eligible for the full value when selling. For example, you buy stock in a company and it's only worth 50% if you were to sell it again immediately. This then progresses to 100% over say 6 months or a year. That would get rid of day-trading and cause people to actually consider the COMPANY and their PERFORMANCE rather than trying to figure out what the HERD OF IRRATIONAL 'INVESTORS' might be up to.

I wish I had the money to gamble. Sigh...

[SmileyBlast!]

No Growth Apple still worth $600 a share:
see this article.
Wall Street; Idiots!

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by aloshka

Mostly because I'm getting bored with everything Apple. iOS still looks identical as it did when it first launched. No personalization whatsoever. Mac hardware is still moving forward and is awesome, but the OS is still annoying for businesses. The biggest issue is why does it take 4-5 seconds to connect to a server and show it's contents. Windows is instant with SMB. Apple is even slow with AFP.

Getting bored, in that way, is more an emotional reaction, as was noted the record quarter (AGAIN, and AGAIN!). We've just become used to companies constantly hitting the market with new stuff and designs. However, IMO, that's part of the problem... and I hope Apple doesn't fall into it.

Especially where UI is concerned, if it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it! There are many areas where iOS needs fixing, but it isn't in slapping on some new 'look' every so often. I suppose there is some segment of the market that has nothing better to do than customize the UI, but it isn't necessarily a good thing for productivity or really getting things done.

Lately, though, Apple has seemed to fall for making silly UI moves, especially on OSX. I'm a bit worried about Apple long-term, however it isn't really for any of the reasons the 'experts' are worried about or why the stock price has been falling.

re: OSX and networking - Yes, I'd agree that networking, aside from ease of use, has been a long-term sore spot for OSX. And, some of Apple's moves recently in Lion and Mt. Lion have been horribly bad for business... even sectors that were traditional Apple strong-holds. (ex: the whole 'save as' mess) THAT is the kind of thing, along with Apple's neglecting of the Pro market that is getting me worried (among other things).

[SockRolid]

Originally Posted by johncrab

Apple is just Wall Street's latest cash cow. Here is how it works: [...]

Perfect summary. Thanks for that!

[HiRez]

Banning stock shorting would remove the incentive for driving a company's stock price down (by planting "sky is falling articles", or flash dumping, for example), no?

[aloshka]

Originally Posted by SteveW928

Getting bored, in that way, is more an emotional reaction, as was noted the record quarter (AGAIN, and AGAIN!). We've just become used to companies constantly hitting the market with new stuff and designs. However, IMO, that's part of the problem... and I hope Apple doesn't fall into it.

Especially where UI is concerned, if it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it! There are many areas where iOS needs fixing, but it isn't in slapping on some new 'look' every so often. I suppose there is some segment of the market that has nothing better to do than customize the UI, but it isn't necessarily a good thing for productivity or really getting things done.

Lately, though, Apple has seemed to fall for making silly UI moves, especially on OSX. I'm a bit worried about Apple long-term, however it isn't really for any of the reasons the 'experts' are worried about or why the stock price has been falling.

re: OSX and networking - Yes, I'd agree that networking, aside from ease of use, has been a long-term sore spot for OSX. And, some of Apple's moves recently in Lion and Mt. Lion have been horribly bad for business... even sectors that were traditional Apple strong-holds. (ex: the whole 'save as' mess) THAT is the kind of thing, along with Apple's neglecting of the Pro market that is getting me worried (among other things).

I definitely agree with you a 100%. I'm just wondering if Apple wows the world every release but soon will run out of things to wow us. They really have us becoming numb to the new standards. In a sense it's a good thing they try to space out releases a little. But at the same time, you are right. iPhone 5 came out, not much different but I jumped on it right away because it's lighter. That's all they had to do to win me over.

I really wish they would fix the networking issues, but to be honest, I deploy a lot of macs for our creative staff and they are kind of used to the annoying network issues. I haven't really had any complaints except the ones that come from windows.

[carlgo]

What Apple needs to do is arrange for some horse's heads to appear in the beds of some Wall Street executives.

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by aloshka

I definitely agree with you a 100%. I'm just wondering if Apple wows the world every release but soon will run out of things to wow us. They really have us becoming numb to the new standards. In a sense it's a good thing they try to space out releases a little. But at the same time, you are right. iPhone 5 came out, not much different but I jumped on it right away because it's lighter. That's all they had to do to win me over.

I really wish they would fix the networking issues, but to be honest, I deploy a lot of macs for our creative staff and they are kind of used to the annoying network issues. I haven't really had any complaints except the ones that come from windows.

At this point, I'm guessing the 'WOW' will have to come in some other market. I'm not sure what Apple (or any other company) would really do right not to WOW the phone market. Apple pretty much did that already, and it will take some MAJOR thing to do it again. Smaller, lighter, faster, incremental improvements... sure. WOW, I'm not seeing it at this point.

But, what these 'investors' and 'experts' keep missing is that Apple isn't a phone company. The WOW will likely come in some other area, some time down the road. But, so long as Apple just keeps stable sales, profits, and growth... they *SHOULD* be a good stock value. The fact that they may not be suggest stock manipulation, irrationality, or something broken in the investment community... not something wrong with Apple.

I'm with you on the networking stuff. Apple actually has a number of core areas where little things have been a bit broken for a LONG time. Wifi has always been a trouble spot on and off for some users. The 'cloud' stuff has been working well for me, so far (knock on wood), but has been a huge problem point for a long time as well (long before iCloud). That said, I guess if you're an average user (as opposed to tech support... which I was too), you connect to a network drive at the start of the day. If it takes a few seconds, no big deal. For people who use networks in other ways, it is a pain for sure. (Mt. Lion seems WAY better for me between my home devices, but I haven't really tried it out on bigger networks, so I can't speak to that.)

----------

Originally Posted by carlgo

What Apple needs to do is arrange for some horse's heads to appear in the beds of some Wall Street executives.

As someone noted earlier, this problem is way bigger than Apple. Apple is just the latest victim. It's just a smaller-scale 'smash and grab' by those powerful to set it all up. The bigger scale ones were the tech-bubble of the late 90s and the more recent housing-bubble. Go watch "Inside Job" (documentary) some day if you want to get your blood boiling. The 99% stuff has kind of degraded into a joke, but many of the core concepts and corruption they are against are absolutely correct.

[bassfingers]

Originally Posted by SteveW928

More evidence things in Vegas (I mean Wall Street) run off rumor more than financials.

Think about it.... why would the sale of a bunch of shares of stock affect the price? Because gamblers (I mean 'investors') are watching that kind of stuff rather than things which really matter, like how Apple is actually doing, their products, decisions, etc. Apple's REAL value didn't change before and after.

As long as this is what we call 'investing' things aren't going to turn around. I think we need to implement some controls on the system to turn it back to investment... like time based criteria to be eligible for the full value when selling. For example, you buy stock in a company and it's only worth 50% if you were to sell it again immediately. This then progresses to 100% over say 6 months or a year. That would get rid of day-trading and cause people to actually consider the COMPANY and their PERFORMANCE rather than trying to figure out what the HERD OF IRRATIONAL 'INVESTORS' might be up to.

Haha, wow.

That sort of regulation is not the role of government in the least. If I want to buy something today and sell it today, I should have the freedom to do that. There is nothing immoral about that. I am not imposing myself on anyone else's rights.

Your suggestion sounds great, until you "invest" in a high-risk high-reward startup. Suppose you find out a month later you had better sell: but nope, thanks to your regulations, you have two choices 1. Sell at 50% or 2. Watch your investment ride its way to the bottom for 6 months. Thanks to you, less people put their money on the line.

Anytime you impose arbitrary legislation that widely overreaches the role of government, there are going to be more unexpected consequences than anticipated benefits.

If you feel Wall Street is too risky, you can always choose to invest elsewhere. That's the beauty of a free market.

[aloshka]

Mac PRO would be nice. Or at least some mid-range tower of apple. I don't want a damn iMAC. I want a multi-screen mac machine that has a 3770 (same specs as an imac) but real video card.

[baryon]

I understand nothing of the stock market, but I still say that it's a silly thing and it should not exist. Those people at stock exchanges just don't seem like intelligent, reliable and healthy people, yet they rule the world. I really can't say this based on any facts, it's just my un-educated impression

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by bassfingers

Haha, wow.

That sort of regulation is not the role of government in the least. If I want to buy something today and sell it today, I should have the freedom to do that. There is nothing immoral about that. I am not imposing myself on anyone else's rights.

Your suggestion sounds great, until you "invest" in a high-risk high-reward startup. Suppose you find out a month later you had better sell: but nope, thanks to your regulations, you have two choices 1. Sell at 50% or 2. Watch your investment ride its way to the bottom for 6 months. Thanks to you, less people put their money on the line.

Anytime you impose arbitrary legislation that widely overreaches the role of government, there are going to be more unexpected consequences than anticipated benefits.

If you feel Wall Street is too risky, you can always choose to invest elsewhere. That's the beauty of a free market.

So, who's role is it then? Oh, I forget, the magic of the market will overcome human depravity, right? For capitalism to function properly, there needs to be a FREE market. Note: Laissez-faire does not equal free, unless all decisions are rational and no-one cheats in any way.

I might be incorrect on the regulation I proposed (I haven't spent a ton of time trying to think the implications through.... or, maybe a shorter or longer time-frame, etc.), however, I'm not incorrect in identifying a problem which needs SOME kind of regulation to address.

Also, for me this isn't about investment. This is about a company I love and our whole economic foundation of our society. The former is being harmed by stupidity and greed, the latter is in great threat of utter collapse. If it were as simple as moving one's investments to a less-insane system (should one exist), I wouldn't even have bothered commenting here!

[kas23]

Originally Posted by iMikeT

You'll be waiting longer than you thought as AAPL is back above $450 at the moment.

In shouldn't be too long now, I actually meant in the next 6 months. This stock isn't going to make up any appreciable ground (will lose ground in fact) until the next iPhone/iPad release. It even took a dive on record earnings, can't imagine what's it going to do during this quarter (actually, I can).

[Ryth]

Originally Posted by johncrab

Apple is just Wall Street's latest cash cow. Here is how it works:

Big institutional investors get together in back rooms and choose companies they know are really solid and have profit in their future. They set irrationally high quarterly numbers or claim a company "did not exceed expectations by enough". They start a plunge by selling short a large block of shares to create panic. Then other companies and individuals panic (predictably) and dump their shares thinking the sky is falling. The share price plunges.

When the damage has been done and a share price has been devalued 20-30%, the big investors start buying back those shares. Momentum builds and drives the price back where it was and they make billions as the price rises, more than offsetting the short sell they used to start this march of the lemmings.

I watched Wall St do this to GE at 8 month intervals in the late 80's, working a 10 point drop then rise. GE killed this with repurchase programs but the same thing has happened to HP and Microsoft and other companies. It is extremely predictable once it starts but only the fat cats make the real money, basically by defrauding smaller investors by making them panic.

Which is why many people suggested Apple repurchase about 20+ billion of it when it happened last week.

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Originally Posted by kas23

In shouldn't be too long now, I actually meant in the next 6 months. This stock isn't going to make up any appreciable ground (will lose ground in fact) until the next iPhone/iPad release. It even took a dive on record earnings, can't imagine what's it going to do during this quarter (actually, I can).

There's lots of signs (and there are as always) that the stock was as usual manipulated and certain trades were executed on purpose to tank the stock (Flash at end of last friday in the last second).

And as usual on Monday...a slew of positive news articles from traders, hedge funds and sites citing new product lines and areas where they can grow, etc.

[please22]

Has no one really read ZH new posts that points to weakness in Apple's cash balance? Weakness due to lack of information, the kind of thing institutional investors are risk adverse to?

[kas23]

Originally Posted by Ryth

There's lots of signs (and there are as always) that the stock was as usual manipulated and certain trades were executed on purpose to tank the stock (Flash at end of last friday in the last second).

Those small fluctuations may be due to manipulations, but the dive from $700 to where we are today is not. The stock is more appropriately priced now because Apple is no longer in an exponential growth period, which is fine for the company, but not for investors. What we see today will be the new norm unless Apple finds a new cash cow. The iPhone and iPad profits will keep it priced 400-500, but they'll need a new product line to push it higher. Based on the lack of leaked parts (which is also Apple's new norm), this product isn't coming any time soon.

[Solomani]

Originally Posted by WhoDaKat

Some people need to do some research on High Frequency Trading. This isn't some investor, this is a huge faceless corporation purposefully trying to tank Apple's stock. Just wait. I've got a $1 that says Google is behind this.

There are only a few Apple rivals who have so much money to "play with" in order to harm AAPL stock performance. Most likely they are agents of Google or Samsung. Or it could be the Gnomes of Zurich.

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by kas23

Those small fluctuations may be due to manipulations, but the dive from $700 to where we are today is not. The stock is more appropriately priced now because Apple is no longer in an exponential growth period, which is fine for the company, but not for investors. What we see today will be the new norm unless Apple finds a new cash cow. The iPhone and iPad profits will keep it priced 400-500, but they'll need a new product line to push it higher. Based on the lack of leaked parts (which is also Apple's new norm), this product isn't coming any time soon.

I'm not really a stock guy... and I'm no economics expert (though I did complete a Master's level economics seminar as part of my degree). But, can you, then, please explain what has changed? Maybe they were overpriced at 700, but then the question I'd ask is how they got to 700. Stock valuation should be based on *something*, right? So, either the current number is based on fluff, or the 700 was... as Apple has only done better and better ever since.

In other words, the iPad and iPhone ARE STILL their cash cow, and given Apple's history, there is little reason to believe there won't be another one to follow. So, I guess I'm wondering what has changed to drive the stock down. Are people believing the silliness about Samsung and others eroding Apple's domination? Did people believe the false rumors about part order cuts? Do people think Jobs was the only innovative person at Apple? Do people think Apple is a phone company? Something just isn't adding up here (if one were to assume 'investors' are rational... not an assumption I'd make, but for the sake of argument.)

[Mums]

I got issued warnings by MacRumors moderators for posting my suspicions about Apple stock manipulation back when it was being artificially bloated. Now they run articles on premeditated flash dumps - Isn't that manipulation?

I now make another prediction: MacRumors' readership is going to plummet due to Apple's decreasing appeal as a company.