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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:10 PM   #26
LIVEFRMNYC
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It's extremely hard and a long process for already convicted imates to try to clear themselves with DNA. Prosecutors actual fight against it for their own selfish reasons. Until this is corrected, I just can't support the death penalty.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:33 PM   #27
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Very true. Ever see Prison Break? It's based around that topic.
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It's extremely hard and a long process for already convicted imates to try to clear themselves with DNA. Prosecutors actual fight against it for their own selfish reasons. Until this is corrected, I just can't support the death penalty.
Yeah there is no justice with defence attorneys and prosecutors having their own agenda wanting to win each case no matter what.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:42 PM   #28
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Can anyone point to a single murder that was prevented by the fact that the death penalty exists.

Surety is a far more effective deterrent than severity.
Locking people up in prison for life was supposed to be a deterrent too and that isn't working so well either.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:45 PM   #29
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In general against (though in some cases I can understand the desire; like killing children)
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:49 PM   #30
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Against it in all cases.

I'd rather let 100 guilty men live than let 1 innocent person be executed.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:57 PM   #31
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Against it in all cases.

I'd rather let 100 guilty men live than let 1 innocent person be executed.

So do you believe in torture? What if someone killed one of your family members and got life in prison, only to find out that although in prison that person is living a comfortable enough life? I'm just curious, not trying to prove anything.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 05:12 PM   #32
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100% slam dunk
Never happens.

Oh and I find the basketball metaphor remarkably crass.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 05:13 PM   #33
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So do you believe in torture? What if someone killed one of your family members and got life in prison, only to find out that although in prison that person is living a comfortable enough life? I'm just curious, not trying to prove anything.
That's why we don't let victims or those close to them choose the sentence. There are three aims in sentencing - public protection, rehabilitation and punishment. Punishment is in the form of loss of liberty, but it is not the same as trying to make someone 'suffer'. Aiming to a achieve suffering and misery would do nothing but pander to people's primitive desire for revenge.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 05:17 PM   #34
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I'm not sure what your point is here.
Don't you think it is kind of a paradox? Richard Allen Davis being in part the reason why California still has a death penalty?

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Davis was denied "more than a dozen claims he hoped would set him free".
He continues to offend, even from his prison cell.

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The seven-member high court would allow him to renew one challenge but only after an execution date was set.

What do you think his chances are of winning that challenge?

Do you think that convicted murderers should be denied any avenue for appeal?
Sure they should be able to appeal. And, also, I think I said several times that I am against the death penalty. In almost every case, I think that there is a chance for redemption or rehabilitation at some level, even if that person can never be entrusted with freedom again. And I believe that there are a lot of wrongful convictions out there to be rectified, too.

But, you have to admit, that there are a few people out there, perhaps one in a million, that challenge the assumption of -- of some possibility of doing something, anything of positive value with their life. So, I'm opposed to the death penalty as a policy, but, I just won't be able to bring myself to demonstrate outside the prison if Richard Allen Davis's number ever comes up. It is actually the few people like him that are, in effect, the reason the death penalty still exists.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 05:37 PM   #35
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That's why we don't let victims or those close to them choose the sentence. There are three aims in sentencing - public protection, rehabilitation and punishment. Punishment is in the form of loss of liberty, but it is not the same as trying to make someone 'suffer'. Aiming to a achieve suffering and misery would do nothing but pander to people's primitive desire for revenge.
Loss of liberty is the punishment. Lack of amusement comes to mind...
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 06:52 PM   #36
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That's why we don't let victims or those close to them choose the sentence. There are three aims in sentencing - public protection, rehabilitation and punishment. Punishment is in the form of loss of liberty, but it is not the same as trying to make someone 'suffer'. Aiming to a achieve suffering and misery would do nothing but pander to people's primitive desire for revenge.
Actually we do have some choice. It's called voting, and I think (I'm no lawyer) depending on the case, the family does have input whether or not to seek the death penalty or other sentences. I think if it's a hired prosecutor vs a DA that does what they want.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:11 PM   #37
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So do you believe in torture? What if someone killed one of your family members and got life in prison, only to find out that although in prison that person is living a comfortable enough life? I'm just curious, not trying to prove anything.
I'd be glad that they're locked up and paying for their crimes and not going to hurt anybody else.

Every time some murderer gets executed, the victim's family always talks about how they got closure. I'm sorry, but I don't care what happened, you have to have a pretty sick mind if the only way to get closure is to see another man die.

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Actually we do have some choice. It's called voting, and I think (I'm no lawyer) depending on the case, the family does have input whether or not to seek the death penalty or other sentences. I think if it's a hired prosecutor vs a DA that does what they want.
There's no such thing as a hired prosecutor. They all work for the DA. The only person the victim's family could hire is an attorney for any civil suits stemming from the crime, but civil suits do not result in jail time or capital punishment.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:35 PM   #38
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Just a question for those against the death penalty. Would you feel any differently if you had a loved one murdered?
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 10:10 PM   #39
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Never happens.
How so? If you catch the person in the act, how is there a question as to whether they did it? If it's on video and you can plainly see who it is, how is there a question whether they did it?

I am OK with it in extreme cases (mass murder, murder of children, etc) where there is no question who the perpetrator is.

Outside of that, I would say solitary confinement with only the most basic of needs administered. No spending hours at the gym. No TV. No socializing in the yard. Make it actual punishment. And this is for people who commit real crimes, not drug users or people who broke into someone's house to steal a TV.

Solely taking someone off the streets for a while is not much of a deterrent. Making it actually a scary prospect is much more likely to create a change.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 10:34 PM   #40
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How so? If you catch the person in the act, how is there a question as to whether they did it? If it's on video and you can plainly see who it is, how is there a question whether they did it?
who catches the person in the act? The judge? The jury? A witness? No one can be absolutely certain of witness testimony.

I'll allow for the possibility that video could theoretically depict a criminal act, but completely unambiguous footage is incredibly rare.

Then there are lawyers..........professional sophists.

But I don't believe in the death penalty even in a theoretical unambiguous case. However even if I did, the cost of failure is too high.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 10:40 PM   #41
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Just a question for those against the death penalty. Would you feel any differently if you had a loved one murdered?
No
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:11 PM   #42
LIVEFRMNYC
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I'd be glad that they're locked up and paying for their crimes and not going to hurt anybody else.

Every time some murderer gets executed, the victim's family always talks about how they got closure. I'm sorry, but I don't care what happened, you have to have a pretty sick mind if the only way to get closure is to see another man die.
Logically what your saying makes sense, but in reality you wouldn't be human yourself if you actually felt that way after dealing with such a tragedy.

If someone hurt anyone in my family, I wouldn't consider that person as an actual human being. I would want the worst for the person. And if I would ever have any forgiveness, it would not be for a long time.

Sure you can think your as rational as possible, but you can't curb your emotions. Being rational is sometimes just a mask to cover one's true feelings.


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There's no such thing as a hired prosecutor. They all work for the DA. The only person the victim's family could hire is an attorney for any civil suits stemming from the crime, but civil suits do not result in jail time or capital punishment.
Thanks, good to know.

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Just a question for those against the death penalty. Would you feel any differently if you had a loved one murdered?
I would rather handle it myself.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:29 PM   #43
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Just a question for those against the death penalty. Would you feel any differently if you had a loved one murdered?
Quite possibly.

But I believe that's why they have sober-minded judges preside over trials and not grieved loved ones.

Grief and the desire for revenge tend to cloud one's judgement.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:31 PM   #44
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Every time some murderer gets executed, the victim's family always talks about how they got closure. I'm sorry, but I don't care what happened, you have to have a pretty sick mind if the only way to get closure is to see another man die.
Agreed - Why can't you find closure in the criminal being locked up for life?
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 12:00 AM   #45
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Just a question for those against the death penalty. Would you feel any differently if you had a loved one murdered?
Well, yeah. Which is why the decision shouldn't be up to me in that situation.

The state's job in dealing with a murder is direct and fair justice. Some victims might want justice, but others will want vengeance and the state's role is to mitigate this. If we allow for vengeance, we create room for blood feuds and all manner of other horrors.

If someone murdered my wife, I'd want their head on a pike. If someone killed my father, they should prepare to die.

And, that's why we have juries that aren't comprised of the victim's friends and family.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 12:24 AM   #46
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I'm all for it, provided the victims consent. Some people just need to go away, and their mere presence here on earth is hurting others. You can say we don't have the right to take someone's life, but it happens all the time. Deaths in war are often considered justified - how is executing someone that much worse than shooting a nazi? (yes yes, the nazi can fight back, but at the end of the day we're still taking a life).

I know that there can be mistakes and someone can be falsely convicted. That's why we have so many appeals for people on death row. I do feel bad if and innocent person occasionally slips through but lets be honest - if you are in jail for 25+ years your life has already been taken away. I guess I don't understand wanting to keep someone in jail until they are elderly on the off chance that they might be acquitted at age 75 and get out of jail to no home, no job, no retirement.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 12:32 AM   #47
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If someone murdered my wife, I'd want their head on a pike. If someone killed my father, they should prepare to die.
Which is the visceral, primal, atavistic response. We are at least supposed to be civilized, beyond that, but we are animals at heart. When you think on it, imagine the killer in a cold, passionless cell, staring at grey stone walls, watching his life slip away from him without any joy or sorrow, only regret. If you want punishment, that sounds to me as severe as it gets.

Of course, it is expensive to warehouse the irretrievable, it would make more sense if they had to work, to at least make up the cost of their own sad existence. I am not quite sure how that could be done, but it seems to be the one thing missing from the picture. Not slave labor, just subsistence.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 01:06 AM   #48
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imagine the killer in a cold, passionless cell, staring at grey stone walls, watching his life slip away from him without any joy or sorrow, only regret. If you want punishment, that sounds to me as severe as it gets.
The problem is not everybody thinks that way. Personally I would want the person dead. The thought of them being alive somewhere, breathing, in a prison in the state where I live would upset me. It's not about wanting them to suffer somewhere, it's about wanting some closure and moving on - not needing to think about them.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:39 AM   #49
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The problem is not everybody thinks that way. Personally I would want the person dead. The thought of them being alive somewhere, breathing, in a prison in the state where I live would upset me. It's not about wanting them to suffer somewhere, it's about wanting some closure and moving on - not needing to think about them.
Sorry, but the justice system is not about you. If someone breaks into your house, takes your stuff, sells it to buy some sugar, gets caught, convicted, sent up the river, now, where is your stuff? Gone. You get nothing, in exactly the same way that a murder leaves you empty-hearted. The courts are not tasked with "making things right", their job is to deal with the defective human, to make them right. Otherwise, for example, someone like Ken Lay would have had all his assets seized upon conviction, to help all those people and investors who were screwed over by his massive fraud. As a victim, your suffering is not really relevant beyond the fact that you have suffered.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:47 AM   #50
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Quite possibly.

But I believe that's why they have sober-minded judges preside over trials and not grieved loved ones.

Grief and the desire for revenge tend to cloud one's judgement.
Exactly. Like I said before, there is a reason why the victim or their relatives don't get to decide the punishment.
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