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Old Jan 25, 2013, 06:24 PM   #26
filmbuff
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I don't disagree that this was a BIG mistake, but it was that, and nothing more - a mistake. What you're saying really isn't far off from saying "if you have an auto accident, you should not own a car."
It's more like if you decided to drive a car blindfolded at a high speed, and then ran into 3 people. Well, technically it was an "accident" but what kind of idiot drives into a crowd blindfolded? If you did something like that in a car you would be charged with a crime, but equal stupidity with a gun has no consequences?

And let me be clear as a firearm owner and user - if you store a gun with a bullet in the chamber and then take that gun to a crowded area and pull the trigger, even by mistake - that is as stupid as driving blindfolded.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 06:49 PM   #27
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Don't most states have some kind of law making it illegal to negligently discharge a firearm?
I believe there are laws against intentionally discharging a firearm, I'm not sure about unintentionally. But in this case, it's clear that no law was violated - that's the whole point of the article.

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But, you do raise an interesting point. Why don't we have laws mandating not only gun safety training, but, safe gun behavior?
Good question. Where do you draw the lines? What should the punishments be? Is there really going to be a zero tolerance level for legitimate accidents? If not, are you going to apply the same zero tolerance to other aspects of our lives, and incarcerate everyone who slips up somewhere?

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Nevertheless, he must have violated the first rule of gun safety for this to happen-- always assume a gun is loaded until you personally verify that it isn't. He "knew" the gun was unloaded, and, it wasn't. Happens all the time.
I never said he's in the right. I only said he didn't break the law, and that an accident can actually happen without there being any criminal wrongdoing.

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Yes, but, for some types of "accidents", you should only get one chance to own a car, and, some types of "accidents" should disqualify you from ever driving a car again. And, after two or three significant "accidents", you lose your license to drive a car forever. You shouldn't be allowed to be that accident prone.
Wow. I'd hate to be a kid growing up in your house and spill a glass of milk.

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It's more like if you decided to drive a car blindfolded at a high speed, and then ran into 3 people. Well, technically it was an "accident" but what kind of idiot drives into a crowd blindfolded? If you did something like that in a car you would be charged with a crime, but equal stupidity with a gun has no consequences?

And let me be clear as a firearm owner and user - if you store a gun with a bullet in the chamber and then take that gun to a crowded area and pull the trigger, even by mistake - that is as stupid as driving blindfolded.
No, it isn't.

If you're blindfolded, you know it. There can be no doubt. I'm quite certain this guy didn't think the gun was loaded. Yes, he was wrong and yes, it was a dumb mistake, but it's nowhere near your incredibly ludicrous analogy of driving blindfolded at high speed.

If you want to use such a ridiculous argument, at least compare driving blindfolded to shooting blindfolded, and I'd agree with you.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 08:23 PM   #28
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IMO, accidents aren't caused by responsible, well-trained people. If you don't have the sense to check and see if the gun is loaded then you aren't capable of owning a firearm.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 08:30 PM   #29
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If you're blindfolded, you know it. There can be no doubt. I'm quite certain this guy didn't think the gun was loaded. Yes, he was wrong and yes, it was a dumb mistake, but it's nowhere near your incredibly ludicrous analogy of driving blindfolded at high speed.

If you want to use such a ridiculous argument, at least compare driving blindfolded to shooting blindfolded, and I'd agree with you.
I'm quite certain that he was well aware of it when he loaded a bullet into the chamber, then put the gun away. He was also well aware when he took a gun to a crowded place without even checking to see if it was loaded, and he was well aware when he carelessly took it out of the case (probably pulling the trigger in the process). For some reason you keep trying to play this off as an innocent "whoopsie" like knocking over a glass of milk, and not the astounding chain of big-big mistakes that led to 3 people being shot.

EDIT: or maybe it's a bit like pouring yourself a glass of milk, then setting it on a balcony and forgetting that you poured it, not noticing it sitting there for a year, then dropping it over the balcony seriously injuring 3 people.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 09:46 PM   #30
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For some reason you keep trying to play this off as an innocent "whoopsie" like knocking over a glass of milk, and not the astounding chain of big-big mistakes that led to 3 people being shot.
No, I'm trying only to play it off as something other than criminal.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 06:52 AM   #31
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IMO, accidents aren't caused by responsible, well-trained people. If you don't have the sense to check and see if the gun is loaded then you aren't capable of owning a firearm.
ummm...thats why they are called accidents.

for all the "this wouldn't have happened if he was a trained LEO" people, I present this idiot, the only one in that room trained enough to have a Glock 40 according to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSTIV2esa-k

accidents by nature are unpredictable and can happen to anyone.

Now, this gun show shooting had a couple of failures in terms of safe gun handling:

1) The gun should have been checked and rechecked to make sure it was empty in the guys home before putting it in the case.

2) When removing it from the case it should have been pointed away from other people.

As far as whether he should have been charged or not, I think the police should have slapped him with something, even if it was illegal discharge of a firearm in the city limits.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 08:40 AM   #32
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The vast majority of auto collisions are the direct result of operator negligence but are treated like some kind of bizarre coincedence as opposed to an obvious outcome of a deliberate choice.
That's true. Society is more tolerant of auto accidents. Probably because in the non-urban areas of the country people need to have a car. A driving ban would prevent them from getting to work and destroy their lives. Not so with a gun ban.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 08:45 AM   #33
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As far as whether he should have been charged or not, I think the police should have slapped him with something
Police? What police? There shouldn't be any police. They're socialist leeches that steal the taxpayers money to "protect" us, when we should really be responsible for protecting ourselves. People who rely on police to protect them just want the government to take care of everything for them. You know, personal responsibility and all....
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 10:04 AM   #34
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Gun should have been unloaded before storing in a case and safety should have been triggered. Even if this were the case there is no such thing as an unloaded gun when it comes to safety. I believe there should be some type of charge laid.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 06:29 PM   #35
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That's true. Society is more tolerant of auto accidents. Probably because in the non-urban areas of the country people need to have a car. A driving ban would prevent them from getting to work and destroy their lives.
Which is of course an untrue and outdated excuse, but remains a popular myth to perpetuate.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 08:43 PM   #36
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Which is of course an untrue and outdated excuse, but remains a popular myth to perpetuate.
Says the person probably living right in the middle of a major metropolitan area, within walking distance of his job.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 08:51 PM   #37
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Which is of course an untrue and outdated excuse, but remains a popular myth to perpetuate.
Show me a bus line that goes 20+ miles into rural areas....

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Old Jan 30, 2013, 06:52 AM   #38
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Which is of course an untrue and outdated excuse, but remains a popular myth to perpetuate.
Why do you say that?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:38 AM   #39
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http://www.wral.com/charges-won-t-be...ting/12009665/



I think it is absurd that charges won't be filed. It makes little sense to me how three people were hit, tbh. There should be something done in the sense that a gun owner was incapable of handling the weapon safely.

And no, I am not trying to start an argument about how no one should be able to own a gun. I do believe this gun owner should be charged with something though.
Listen, we don't want to do anything that puts gun shows in a bad light. Ok, so a loaded gun went off. Let's not exacerbate the issue, threatening in any manner, an institution we love.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:16 PM   #40
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Accidents happen. A firearm accident is no different than any other accident.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:51 PM   #41
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Which is of course an untrue and outdated excuse, but remains a popular myth to perpetuate.
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Why do you say that?
Yep...you're going to have to explain that one.

So the need for a vehicle to get to one's place of employment in areas where there are no bus lines or subways is just an excuse? In place of what? Walking 8 miles? Using a skateboard? Hovercraft? Just moving to a house that is within walking distance of the warehouse set back in an industrial area?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:53 PM   #42
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Accidents happen. A firearm accident is no different than any other accident.
Being careless or sloppy or lazy is not an accident. a accident is something that happens that you have no control over. unloading your gun is something you can do. leaving one in the chamber and the safety is not an accident. Calling such things a accident is just a way to not accept responsibility. running a red light and hitting someone is not an accident.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:57 PM   #43
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It's more like if you decided to drive a car blindfolded at a high speed, and then ran into 3 people. Well, technically it was an "accident" but what kind of idiot drives into a crowd blindfolded? If you did something like that in a car you would be charged with a crime, but equal stupidity with a gun has no consequences?

And let me be clear as a firearm owner and user - if you store a gun with a bullet in the chamber and then take that gun to a crowded area and pull the trigger, even by mistake - that is as stupid as driving blindfolded.
Actually it would be more like parking your car on a hill with a manual transmission and not setting the parking brake. Then it pops out of gear and rolls away.

Driving a car blindfolded into a crown would indicate intent. That for sure isn't going to end well.

There are a million things we don't know about this. Here is a thought though. Anyone that has ever owned a firearm knows that they are a mechanical device and as such are subject to the same ability to malfunction as any other machine. I have had shotguns fail to move a shell from the mag to the chamber when unloading and I could see that being missed if he was untrained or otherwise distracted.

He may have never even fired the weapon. He could have gotten it from a friend, a retaliative etc. After my father in law died, I inherited several guns. The lawyer met us at the police station for the transfer and registration and weapons inspections and when the .38 was inspected it had 3 unfired rounds in it. The lawyer walked into the police station with a loaded gun.



Now, as for charges, no matter what happened or why it happened, I still feel charges should be filed.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:23 AM   #44
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Being careless or sloppy or lazy is not an accident. a accident is something that happens that you have no control over. unloading your gun is something you can do. leaving one in the chamber and the safety is not an accident. Calling such things a accident is just a way to not accept responsibility. running a red light and hitting someone is not an accident.
Most accidents are preventable.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:32 AM   #45
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I think a better example than driving blindfolded would be driving drunk...
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