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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:10 AM   #26
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Are there any guarantees that highly advanced civilizations have to be friendly ones?
Are there any guarantees that any civilizations we encounter will even be "highly advanced?" Or that they'll even be civilizations? Or that they'll even be sentient?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:17 AM   #27
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Are there any guarantees that any civilizations we encounter will even be "highly advanced?" Or that they'll even be civilizations? Or that they'll even be sentient?
No, there's not, but usually in a discussion like this is the fear that a tech advanced society would appear with hostile intent.

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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:11 PM   #28
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You may like this video as well.
Awesome perspective. Thanks.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:41 PM   #29
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Newsweek/Daily Beast: Planets, Planets Everywhere

Interesting read. The author does not seem to think that aliens will come visit us because the nearest stars would take a Saturn rocket 70,000 years to reach. And he thinks any aliens would be peaceful. Hmm. So how do you explain all the UFO sightings? Some kind of warp or worm technology would answer that. And as far as being friendly, I'd say that's 50-50. Are there any guarantees that highly advanced civilizations have to be friendly ones?

Why do you assume UFO equates alien?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:07 PM   #30
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Yup. Something as seemingly basic and primitive as spite and revenge is actually quite an advanced response only a thinking creature would be capable of. It serves no real survival purposes. You're not doing it to protect a food supply, your offspring, or your territory. It actually works in opposition of any real survival instincts, as you're potentially putting yourself in harms way to go out to antagonize and humiliate someone over any myriad number of issues. And all for what? For the satisfaction of
FWIW, game theory demonstrates that for cooperative situations where cheating is a possibility (particularly those in whic the "payoffs" resemble those for the classic Prisoners Dilemma with repeated iterations), a modified "tit for tat" strategy where you repay cooperation with cooperation and cheating with cheating is extremely successful.

Like any other behavior it could have evolved from evolutionary pressure if those with brain pathways that support a tit for tat strategy were more likely to get the resources they needed to survive and reproduce than those whose brains didn't. Especially given the frequency of cooperative interactions (with potential for cheating) in a human or even lower primate group of any size.

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I find the concept of the vast void to be more awesome and beautiful than that of some quasi-benevolent bearded man in a white robe. That things do what they do because, without any provocation, management or cunning plan is all the more impressive. Who needs god? It only gets in the way.
Agreed with this. It is fascinating and awe inspiring to think of the simple rules of nature creating such fascinating and beautiful complexity -- whether it's the spirals of a galaxy or the Fibonacci and fractal mathematics of a leaf. Without any agency - simply the way atoms and molecules interact.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 11:49 PM   #31
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Why do you assume UFO equates alien?
Don't read more into it than you need to. If you can believe the sightings as described, there are aliens out there. That's a big if, but we have no vehicles capable of traveling at high speed and make pin-point 90 turns. I've always wanted to see a UFO and know that assumptions get me into trouble.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:19 AM   #32
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Don't read more into it than you need to. If you can believe the sightings as described, there are aliens out there. That's a big if, but we have no vehicles capable of traveling at high speed and make pin-point 90 turns. I've always wanted to see a UFO and know that assumptions get me into trouble.
Doesn't UFO stand for unidentified? Which means we just don't know what it is. So every time we see something we're not sure of, how does that translate into aliens?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:51 AM   #33
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Free online course on the search for ET life from Edinburgh Uni.

https://www.coursera.org/course/astrobio

You've missed a lesson, but still 5 weeks of it to go. You even get a certificate at the end of it
Is the 3-4 hours a week, listening to the info and taking a quiz?

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Doesn't UFO stand for unidentified? Which means we just don't know what it is. So every time we see something we're not sure of, how does that translate into aliens?
I'm digressing from the main intent of this thread, but don't mind talking UFOs.
It doesn't, but things have been observed that as far as we know don't occur naturally. And if UFO means unidentified, why is the UFO movement based on aliens? Don't mistake me for a die hard UFO/alien fan. I'm open to the notion, but realize all the obstacles that say it's highly unlikely. And as far as reports, a lot depends upon if you believe the reports or think they are just made up.

Currently, I can't believe because as with everything presented in the media, you have no idea if it is being honestly portrayed or someone looking for publicity. One of my favorites is the Rendlesham Forest Incident (Dec 1980) observed by dozens of English citizens and USAF personnel. It's highly unlikely that the incident was faked. It even has an official web site.

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An unidentified object was tracked on radar in the vicinity of the bases and a state of full alert was declared. After awhile however it became clear that the object, whatever it was, posed no direct threat to the bases yet continued to cause the most intense excitement. Witnesses spoke of bright revolving lights circling in the sky as the object hovered over a nearby pine plantation called Rendlesham Forest.
source

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One of the servicemen, Sgt. Jim Penniston, later claimed to have encountered a "craft of unknown origin" and to have made detailed notes of its features, touched its "warm" surface, and copied the numerous symbols on its body.[8] The object allegedly flew away after their brief encounter. Penniston also claimed to have seen triangular landing gear on the object, leaving three impressions in the ground that were visible the next day. While undergoing regression hypnosis in 1994 Penniston subsequently claimed that the "craft" he encountered had come from our future, and was occupied by time travelers, not extraterrestrials.[9] Sgt. Penniston's report made shortly after the incident contains no mention of physically encountering an unknown craft, nor of interacting with it. This report and associated sketches are neither signed nor dated, nor are they representative of AF Form 1169, Statement of Witness.[10]


This taped by USAF personnel (source):
Quote:
Lt. Colonel Halt: We just bumped into the first light that we’ve seen. We’re about a 150-200 yards from the site. Everything else is just deathly calm. There’s no doubt about it, there’...s some kind of strange flashing red light ahead.
Sgt. Nevels: Yeah, It’s yellow.
Lt. Colonel Halt: I saw a yellow tinge in it too. Weird. It appears to be making a little bit this way?
Sgt. Nevels: Yes sir
Lt. Colonel Halt: It’s brighter than it has been…It’s coming this way. It’s definitely coming this way.
Sgt. Ball: Pieces are shooting off!
Lt. Colonel Halt: Pieces of it are shooting off.
Sgt. Ball: at about 11 oclock (12 oclock being directly up, 3 oclock being to the right etc.)
Lt. Colonel Halt: There’s no doubt about it – this is weird!
Sgt. Ball: Look to the left!
Sgt. Nevels: There’s two lights. One light to the right and one light to the left.
Lt. Colonel Halt: Keep your flash light off. There’s something very, very strange. Check the headset out see if it gets any stronger. Give us…
Sgt. Nevels: OK, I have an indication that this is a vague reading too
Lt. Colonel Halt: A vague reading?
Sgt. Nevels: The ? has been removed
------------------------


Real, fake, man created, naturally created, extraterrestrial? Unknown.
link.

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Aug 2011 KINGMAN Arizona - A sighting in the skies over Kingman Thursday night is drawing comparisons to the Phoenix Lights.

For more than an hour beginning sometime around 8 p.m., a Kingman man said he photographed a series of lights that danced their way from the east near the Kingman Airport to the southern horizon, creating oval and rectangular formations as they crossed the sky.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 11:40 AM   #34
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Great video!

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Old Jul 11, 2013, 12:06 PM   #35
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Ok, so I am Agnostic. But if something gives me a feeling of reverence, like I'm part of something which could be spiritual, besides running down a country road with fields, a river, and mountains in the background, it is pictures of the Universe. Is anyone else effected in this manner? It's an emotional reaction based on... ?

Image

Image

Image
I admit I am not one that thinks the universe was created by an accident, but if it was those pics would be one spectacular accident.

Thanks for the images. For some reason that kind of beauty makes my day.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 12:15 PM   #36
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I admit I am not one that thinks the universe was created by an accident, but if it was those pics would be one spectacular accident.

Thanks for the images. For some reason that kind of beauty makes my day.
Your welcome.

My opinion is that the creation of the universe is beyond our ability to know. Even with the God scenario, no one knows how much micromanagement was involved, but we do know what we want to believe.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 12:40 PM   #37
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Ok, so I am Agnostic. But if something gives me a feeling of reverence, like I'm part of something which could be spiritual, besides running down a country road with fields, a river, and mountains in the background, it is pictures of the Universe. Is anyone else effected in this manner? It's an emotional reaction based on... ?

Image

Image

Image
Despite anyone's beliefs* everyone is made up of the stuff stars are made of since pretty much everything in the universe comes from stars (iron for example comes from dying stars) so there are scientists that think maybe that's why we feel a special connection when looking up at the night sky.

*I'm not insulting anyones beliefs by that sentence even though it kind of sounds that way. I just couldn't think of a better way to phrase it.

EDIT: Blah Necro thread!
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 01:23 PM   #38
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Good question. Although contemplating one's own existence may not be a sign of advanced intelligence. This is also the only species that destroys members of it's own and other species outside of survival needs.
Our closest living relatives, Chimpanzees, are pretty bloodthirsty too. Frequently engaging in territorial battles with other chimps.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 01:33 PM   #39
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Why does some of the groups of matter that become animated attain the ability to contemplate their existence?
Faulty wiring.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 02:44 PM   #40
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Faulty wiring.
It's all part of the grand schematic...

There is nothing that can't be fixed with Duct Tape. Shun the deceptions of its dark side and embrace the goodness of its light side and be reborn, defect free.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 03:07 PM   #41
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It's all part of the grand schematic...

There is nothing that can't be fixed with Duct Tape. Shun the deceptions of its dark side and embrace the goodness of its light side and be reborn, defect free.
But the defects are what make life interesting!
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 07:34 AM   #42
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God is so real. It saddens me to think I could end up with all the non-believers and the terrible people of the world even though I'm a believer. Things in life that I see or experience in this world from time to time are "proof" that God exists. I just feel it. How someone can hold and look into the eyes of their newborn child and not know He is real is beyond me.

...those are my personal opinions, anyway...
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 08:28 AM   #43
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I consider myself an agnostic now, but I was raised in a religious family. And I can tell you exactly when my doubts about religion began.

I was barely a teenager, and my parents took me to see "2001: A Space Odyssey". That was my first truly spiritual experience. Kubrick's visuals and music left me in awe of the universe, and the ultimate conclusion of the film certainly gave me a lot to think about.

(Has anybody ever noticed the scene, right before the "light trip", when Bowman sees the monolith, floating horizontally, bisect a vertical alignment of Jupiter's moons? The image so perfectly forms an abstract Christian cross that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the imagery was intentional.)


At any rate...the beauty and wonder of the universe speak to me a lot more spiritually than anything in the Bible.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 10:56 AM   #44
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God is so real. It saddens me to think I could end up with all the non-believers and the terrible people of the world even though I'm a believer. Things in life that I see or experience in this world from time to time are "proof" that God exists. I just feel it. How someone can hold and look into the eyes of their newborn child and not know He is real is beyond me.

...those are my personal opinions, anyway...
I guarantee you that the Egyptions, Greeks, Romans, Norse, Aztecs, Shinto, Hindus, etc etc all felt/feel exactly the same way about their deities. I'm sorry, but "feeling" doesn't mean anything.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 11:36 AM   #45
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God is so real. It saddens me to think I could end up with all the non-believers and the terrible people of the world even though I'm a believer. Things in life that I see or experience in this world from time to time are "proof" that God exists. I just feel it. How someone can hold and look into the eyes of their newborn child and not know He is real is beyond me.

...those are my personal opinions, anyway...
You should not feel sad, because in my opinion, you really don't understand the big picture. Nor do I. And IMO, you should not condemn those on the journey with you who have not reached the conclusions you have. They are still searching. You feel confident you have found the answer, but maybe not. I would advise others not to judge you.

I am spiritual, I do hope, approaching the level of belief, that there is more to our existence than the time span of a human life.

Does this mean heaven? Could be. Who or what is God? While I can't deny it's existence, I don't claim to know it. However I'll buffer that with my spirituality. I feel something that exists on the edge of my perception which I choose to believe is a relationship with a greater beyond. This lack of understanding does not trouble me in the least. When I need to see and it's important, I will see it. In the mean time I can be dazzled by pictures of the universe.

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I consider myself an agnostic now, but I was raised in a religious family. And I can tell you exactly when my doubts about religion began.

I was barely a teenager, and my parents took me to see "2001: A Space Odyssey". That was my first truly spiritual experience. Kubrick's visuals and music left me in awe of the universe, and the ultimate conclusion of the film certainly gave me a lot to think about.

(Has anybody ever noticed the scene, right before the "light trip", when Bowman sees the monolith, floating horizontally, bisect a vertical alignment of Jupiter's moons? The image so perfectly forms an abstract Christian cross that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the imagery was intentional.)


At any rate...the beauty and wonder of the universe speak to me a lot more spiritually than anything in the Bible.
I think spirituality is the key. Dave Bowman's transition into a star child connotates something not only greater than our selves, but a gate way to a plain of existence most humans based on early human superstitions equate to "heaven", a direct interface with God (whatever that is). Maybe, maybe not.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 11:58 AM   #46
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Perhaps the universe is god.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 12:18 PM   #47
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In other words, we are floating around inside of God. Just as plausible as other theories and the Universe is something we can actually see, not have to imagine.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 12:42 PM   #48
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I guarantee you that the Egyptions, Greeks, Romans, Norse, Aztecs, Shinto, Hindus, etc etc all felt/feel exactly the same way about their deities. I'm sorry, but "feeling" doesn't mean anything.
It's called faith.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 12:45 PM   #49
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It's called faith.
So is it in every other religion.
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 12:51 PM   #50
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In other words, we are floating around inside of God. Just as plausible as other theories and the Universe is something we can actually see, not have to imagine.
In the beginning the universe created the heavens and the earth.

(Bunch of stuff in accordance with the laws of physics goes here.)

And the universe saw all that the universe had made, and it was very good.

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