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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:22 AM   #51
RaceTripper
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Originally Posted by ThomasJL View Post
Because Mountain Lion is more buggy than Lion at this point in time. Are you actually unaware of that?
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Originally Posted by HenryDJP View Post
It is not. ML runs amazingly well and Lion is the one that sucks. It's your system that you need to work on.
10.8.2 is by far the most unstable version of Mac OS X I have ever used (I started with Tiger back in Winter '07). I am stuck using it on my 2012 Mac Mini, but wish I had stayed with Lion on my mid-2010 MBP.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:32 AM   #52
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How on earth does having it on DVD guarantee a clean install?
As already stated, the clean install by installing a new OS with every beta insured that the install would not be hindered by previous bugs or tweaks that the developer may have instigated. As well, the betas were much more developed than currently implemented since 10.7, and required a fresh install rather than modifying the already install beta OS. I recall a few betas in leopard that used ZFS+ but didn't make it to commercial release due to licensing issues.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:04 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by ThomasJL View Post
Because Mountain Lion is more buggy than Lion at this point in time. Are you actually unaware of that?
Not my experience at all. Far less buggy and performance is vastly better for me. Frankly, staying on Lion when another OS is available (whether that's going forward or going back) is insanity. I'm still not a big fan of ML but it beats the heck out of lion.


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Originally Posted by b0fh View Post
I will say this - in December, I installed one of the 10.8.3 betas and tested it with VMWare fusion 5. Crashorama. Two-three crashes a day. *UGH*.

Had to reinstall and go back to 10.8.2
Comes with the territory when you're running betas. If you want the best shot at avoiding crashes, stick with public releases.


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Originally Posted by iBug2 View Post
So it's much easier for everyone if OS betas came as single disk install images with no upgrade option.
Easier? It's much more work and time consuming to do a fresh install every time. Apple wants seeders to test in their day to day use, if beta updates required a fresh install, people would be testing on a secondary machine (or partition) and not installing all their software. Not to mention that many testers would probably skip builds much more often.

There are advantages to fresh installs but it would probably reduce participation a fair amount. Thankfully there are testers who do fresh installs even though it's not required.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:21 AM   #54
HenryDJP
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Originally Posted by RaceTripper View Post
10.8.2 is by far the most unstable version of Mac OS X I have ever used (I started with Tiger back in Winter '07). I am stuck using it on my 2012 Mac Mini, but wish I had stayed with Lion on my mid-2010 MBP.
These types of posts are very difficult to take seriously. Oh, what am I talking about? Oh, this...

"ML is by far the most unstable version of Mac OS X....."

"The Majority is having problems with ML...."

"Lion is better than ML in terms of stability..."

And as usual not one person cares to say what problems they are having. Probably because the problems they have are THEIR problems and not everyone else's. And please don't come back and reply me saying that you posted your issues on another thread along with everybody else's issues. If you're going to continue to make bold statements like ML is the most unstable..dadadada...then you need to continue to post the actual issues, or are people afraid there's an easy solution that might be given by someone on the forum, henceforth reducing their reasons for complaining about ML?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:37 AM   #55
RaceTripper
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My mistake for posting. I forgot about the complete lack of respect everyone has for each other on MacRumors.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:16 AM   #56
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I wonder if they fixed the Thunderbolt/MiniDisplay/VGA-out problem where your start-up screen gets stuck on VGA resolution and you get a nasty graphics glitch that has you concerned about your graphics card.

Or at least I HOPE it's not really a problem with my gfx card!!!

The problem resolves through a Parameter-RAM reset, and only seems to come on when the minidisplay-VGA video out adapter is used. The problem doesn't manifest when using digital video out connections.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:19 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by milo View Post
Easier? It's much more work and time consuming to do a fresh install every time. Apple wants seeders to test in their day to day use, if beta updates required a fresh install, people would be testing on a secondary machine (or partition) and not installing all their software. Not to mention that many testers would probably skip builds much more often.

There are advantages to fresh installs but it would probably reduce participation a fair amount. Thankfully there are testers who do fresh installs even though it's not required.
I was talking about betas of new OS releases. Not betas of point updates. Though, I test even betas of point updates on a separate partition. I actually have had quite a bit of mishaps while using betas on my everyday machine. It's certainly not advisable. But DP's of new OS's can be really unstable so I do clean installs for them after every new DP release.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 01:22 PM   #58
The Bulge
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Slow shutdown is not resolved.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 01:38 PM   #59
milo
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Originally Posted by iBug2 View Post
I was talking about betas of new OS releases. Not betas of point updates.
Then you need to be more clear what you're talking about. The posts you were responding to were talking about a full install for every beta version.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:12 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Bulge View Post
Slow shutdown is not resolved.
Its not the slow that I object to (provided its measured in seconds not eons) its a need for it to be reliable; that when I tell it to shut down it does - which is often not the case on my Mini
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:27 PM   #61
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What exactly are they fixing? It seems like a hell of a long time for a point beta to go final. The last beta I tried made no difference!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:30 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Peace View Post
I just tested that on my MBP and does save the view.
For me, it works on some windows and not others.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:31 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Bulge View Post
Slow shutdown is not resolved.
Granted, I have been saying for ages that 10.8.2 is the worst 10.x.x release ever by Apple - Ethernet disconnections upon wake, countless Console messages associated with mdworker and sandboxing, black screen upon wake etc.

But pray tell: WHY does one need to shut a Mac down? I only do it when I travel for a long time...that's what fast sleep is for.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:22 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by b0fh View Post
I will say this - in December, I installed one of the 10.8.3 betas and tested it with VMWare fusion 5. Crashorama. Two-three crashes a day. *UGH*.

Had to reinstall and go back to 10.8.2
I ran the last two betas and am running this one. Parallels 7.0 works just fine. No crashes found. I bought this version for $29. Upgrade to 8.0 will cost me $50. It's a no go.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:30 PM   #65
The Bulge
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Originally Posted by BRLawyer View Post

But pray tell: WHY does one need to shut a Mac down? I only do it when I travel for a long time...that's what fast sleep is for.
Really? Let's axe it altogether then.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ThomasJL View Post
Mountain Lion might run amazing well for you, but for the majority of users, 10.7.5 is more stable and reliable than 10.8.0, 10.8.1, and 10.8.2.
I'm genuinely surprised at this comment--you're the only person I've heard make that claim.

So far as I could tell, even 10.8.0 was more polished than any version of 10.7 for most purposes, and I've heard almost no one claim otherwise.

Heck, for practical purposes 10.8.0 IS 10.7.6.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:30 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by BRLawyer View Post
countless Console messages associated with mdworker and sandboxing
Just FYI - console messages don't always indicate a problem, so I wouldn't use this as a metric in determining how bad a release may or may not be.

As a developer, I've logged quite a few things to Unix consoles for recordkeeping and for potential troubleshooting. Sure, a few of them were outright errors but on the whole, most of them were informational only. It's not really expected that people are watching this output.

Yeah, I'd like to see some cleaner console output but it has to be a next to zero priority for Apple, and rightly so.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:57 PM   #68
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Just FYI - console messages don't always indicate a problem, so I wouldn't use this as a metric in determining how bad a release may or may not be.

As a developer, I've logged quite a few things to Unix consoles for recordkeeping and for potential troubleshooting. Sure, a few of them were outright errors but on the whole, most of them were informational only. It's not really expected that people are watching this output.

Yeah, I'd like to see some cleaner console output but it has to be a next to zero priority for Apple, and rightly so.
A lot of those are related to faulty sandboxing, constant spotlight indexing and wake-from-sleep issues. How is that not a problem?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:47 PM   #69
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A lot of those are related to faulty sandboxing, constant spotlight indexing and wake-from-sleep issues. How is that not a problem?
iCloud doesn't work with my proxy because it doesn't have sandboxing permissions to talk to local addresses :facepalm:
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:14 PM   #70
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I was going to ask the same thing. Who in their right mind would stay on Lion? You either come to ML or go back to SL.
Yeah well I'll give you a reason. Apple thought the Macbook that I own (early 2008?) to be unable to run ML. My iMac is running ML, my iPhone is using iCloud. I want all my contacts/calendar etc on ALL my devices. Going back to SL is therefore out of the question. And please, when I updated my Macbook to Lion for a test drive, my SL on my iMac felt out-dated very fast. Although SL was the greatest OS at that time, it is not the best anymore.

And ML is full of bugs, I find 10.7.5 to be very stable.

ML:
- Wallpaper issues
- My external drive with my Time Machine backup needs force eject every time I try to eject the drive
- Disappearing mouse cursor
- Finder sometimes freezes when connecting with another Mac using FW
- Message…complete mess
- Reminders is slow (while it should be a light application)
- Performance in Safari is terrible when zooming in on a page
- After opening an application created in Automator the application doesn't launch
- After ejecting an external drive, when adding a folder from an external drive to the side-bar in Finder, the folder disappears from the side-bar.
- Lots of crashes with the DVD-player application

So, Lion isn't all that bad for me.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:32 PM   #71
Kariya
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Im quite happy with the latest builds of 10.8.3 even more so than i was with 10.7.5. Its stable, fast and all round responsive. Safari blazes even more.

Still not quite up to the level of 10.6.8 or 10.4.11 but definitely not far behind at all.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 01:54 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Twimfy View Post
It makes me wonder what the hell it all even matters anyway.

Slow shutdown time? - If 20 seconds extra is going to make you miss the bus then leave earlier.

Slightly laggy? - What a nightmare, your friends are going to die if they don't see your amusing Facebook status right this second. Again, gain some patience.

Don't like "iOSification"? - Stop trying to be one of those hipsters who uses old stuff for the sake of being one of the "it ain't what it used to be/I was there in the beginning" people. Launchpad and iCloud are so discrete you won't even notice them.

Apple keep releasing too many updates too soon and ignoring you? - Apple can do whatever the **** they like and they certainly aren't going to listen to you whinge on a 3rd party forum.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dunno, I get fed up of people complaining about **** when they should consider themselves lucky to be using an expensive machine in the first place when the rest of the world struggles.

Seeing as we're dick waving, I use a 2008 24" 8,1 iMac with a broken backlight which is permanently stuck on max brightness and a SuperDrive that grinds up discs and literally fires them a good 10ft across the room. My shutdowns and startups are slow and I get random hangs when iTunes is playing and I have no idea why.

What do I do with my Mac? I'm a full time iOS developer and I sit at this machine 9-5 5 days a week and love every second of it bugs and all, and I cope with all of the little bugs because I'm a patient human being who has more important things to worry about than how many milliseconds it takes for my machine to do something. I can afford a new one but don't see any need to buy one..why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T ****ING MATTER!! Specs do not make your cock bigger.

So if your fancy new rMBP is taking just a little too long to do something and that winds you up to the point where you argue with strangers on the internet in the hope that a multi-billion dollar corporation is going to listen to your argument then I suggest you 1. Sell you Machine, 2. buy a gun, 3. Kill yourself; as you've clearly taken a wrong turn in life and you need to go outside and appreciate what life is all about.

Rant over. Angry. Bring on the flames.

EDIT: Oh and quick addition...if the bugs on your Mac are complete game changers, then stop complaining and go and buy something else BUT don't tell us about it. Nobody cares. If you write "screw this I'm switching to Windows" we're not going to panic that a great Apple exodus is about to occur. You're one person and nobody gives a **** what you do.
I see what you are tying to say, but don't forget that 10.8.2 caused 20 second reboots on SSD/retina to go to nearly 2 minutes. For those of you who have spinning hard drives, I'm sure you don't notice the problem. For those who forked out 3k for SSD machines/retinas, the update to 10.8.2 was a real clunker. Yes, my computer is mobile, so I shut it down at night, turn it on in the AM, check email, shut it down, take to work, start it up, shut it down, and start it up again when I get home and repeat the whole process. If you don't do a proper shutdown, you get warnings about how you should have ejected the timemachine and other disks, yadda....

Come on guys, think about this without getting defensive. I don't feel "privileged" to be working on such a high tech machine - that's what I paid the money for, and I expect it to be "right". The SSD/retina MBPs shine for lightning-quick shutdowns and bootups (among other things) with a good OS. Maybe the shutdown fix will come with 10.8.4 - but it is certainly a bug they inadvertently created with 10.8.2 and its puzzling that they would leave it unaddressed in 10.8.3.

Guess I'll wait for the next version to upgrade again, since I downgraded to Lion due to the slow bootups - and yes, sorry to say that 10.7.5 Lion is much more stable than any iteration of 10.8 so far on a mid 2012 SSD machine. There are some features I miss in 10.8, but it can wait for a stable release as far as I'm concerned.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:28 AM   #73
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I see what you are tying to say, but don't forget that 10.8.2 caused 20 second reboots on SSD/retina to go to nearly 2 minutes. For those of you who have spinning hard drives, I'm sure you don't notice the problem. For those who forked out 3k for SSD machines/retinas, the update to 10.8.2 was a real clunker.
My retina boots in 10 seconds on 10.8.2. Shutdowns can take 2 seconds or 15 seconds. Yes I'd love if they always took 2 seconds but I'm fine with 15 seconds as well. It's not that long for something I do once a week.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:38 AM   #74
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Slow shutdown solution

8:37 up 42 days, 21:08, 2 users, load averages: 1.35 1.37 1.30
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 12:12 PM   #75
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Slow shutdown solution

8:37 up 42 days, 21:08, 2 users, load averages: 1.35 1.37 1.30
No one gives a carot how you or anyone else rationalizes this. The simple truth is that on it's on the fact that it takes 30+ seconds to shut down the most advanced desktop OS as they makrket (even on a god damn clean install on a ****ing i7 maxed out iMac) it simply INEXCUSABLE AND UNACCEPTABLE.

All rationalizations at this point are useless.
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