Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

jimbo1mcm

macrumors 68000
Mar 21, 2010
1,922
477
Maybe the Galaxy S4 is good for us!!

You know what is going to happen; when the S4 is released the press will absolutely swoon over it. Reviewers will say it is so far superior to the Ip5 that it is no contest. And they might be right. Perhaps it will light a fire under Apple. If they are conducting business as usual right now, when Samsung is announcing the S4 in about 6 weeks, instead of all hands on deck, no weekends off until they get stuff running correctly, then we are in trouble. If they are looking at something in 2014 that is fairly tame, by that time, Samsung will have the Galaxy S5 out!! And Apple stock will be in the cellar.
 

manu chao

macrumors 604
Jul 30, 2003
7,219
3,031
You are way off sir. Please go read again. Carefully.

I had no intention whatsoever of belittling the rumored iPhone Plus, and most certainly did not do that. I never even mentioned that device, in fact. With that initial post, I was (quite clearly if you would please go read again, like I've suggested a few times now) responding specifically to a point made about why larger screens sell with a counterpoint that cited two existing devices already on the market (which conveniently happened to be referenced by the author of the original article as well). You chose to apply your line of reasoning - that some people would choose the larger screen of the two devices due to vision limitations - in that established context, and never once mentioned any other.
The two of us discussed what benefits the speculated iPhone Plus might have.
 

saturn88

macrumors 6502
Sep 5, 2011
413
57
Why do you keep piece-mealing the product's features? A product's total usability is defined by the user experience which is more than the sum total of its features. I'll bring up one thing that works, then you'll shift gears and go talk about how it doesn't work in a Benz... well, that's an example of poor implementation... IN A BENZ (by the way, the COMAND system is outdated and not remotely close to Siri's capabilities), not an argument why voice recognition is a bad replacement for a keyboard in principle.

Also, you're mentioning examples of voice recognition in other products... that doesn't apply to the conversation about the iPhone. The implementation in the iPhone works, whether you want to believe it or not. I just demonstrated it to you with 100% accuracy.

I think I've made my point and either you're going to concede to the idea that form factor is one of several important pieces in the overall user experience, or you're not. *shrug*
Actually our conversation was about your original point that "Going larger sacrifices usability", which I disagree with in case of 4" vs. 5" screen. In my example the larger keyboard on a mobile device is always more comfortable for typing vs. smaller keyboard, regardless autocorrection and gimmicky "creative solutions". "Voice recognition works" in ideal conditions only which rarely exist, otherwise it still has a way to go and I still need usable keyboard. And if we are talking about "the sum total of features", the larger phone still has all these features.
 
Last edited:

Nunyabinez

macrumors 68000
Apr 27, 2010
1,758
2,230
Provo, UT
And you completely fail to understand that >4" screens isn't the future, it's the present.

The "innovator's dilemma" talks about what new ways you should go in that don't yet exist, because what people say they want is not always actually what they want.

But with larger phones, people have already shown what they want. Many of them not only said they wanted larger screens, but have gone out and bought them. In fact, they have bought them in numbers rivaling Apple's own!

There's no risk here, there's no ambiguity, there's no concern that people might not actually want it. Samsung and others have been selling larger phones with great success lately.

The only potential pitfall would be that people mistakenly think they want the larger screens, and only buy it once, then revert back to smaller screens. However, if this were the case, there'd be evidence of that happening now, and there isn't. There's no shortage of people buying larger phones, then upgrading to another larger one when something newer catches their eye, and there's no shortage of people buying larger phones and waxing on and on about how happy they are with that size.

Ironically, if the "innovator's dilemma" applies at all, it applies to the people here saying they wouldn't want an iPhone Plus. After all, aren't they saying what they don't want, when many of them don't really know whether they do or not? Have they seen a larger iPhone? No. So how can they knowingly say they don't want it? Isn't that exactly the sort of problem the "innovator's dilemma" is meant to address?

No, I completely understand that people want bigger screens. But, where Apple is going to stay relevant isn't playing keep-up with competition, it's going to be by coming up with something that I don't even know I need yet, but that once I have it, I can't imagine living without. And a 5" screen isn't it. And by definition, I don't know what it is. I want Apple to be working on the next big thing that is going to blow me away, not spending time placating my short-sighted wants for a phone with a bigger screen.

People here complain on one hand about "where's Apples innovation these days?" And then turn around and complain that they aren't doing incremental things like giving them 20 options for screen size. My only solace in this is that Apple has been smart enough not to listen the the pundits, although I fear that they may give in without the powerful will and vision of Steve Jobs.
 

Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,929
12,480
NC
People here complain on one hand about "where's Apples innovation these days?" And then turn around and complain that they aren't doing incremental things like giving them 20 options for screen size. My only solace in this is that Apple has been smart enough not to listen the the pundits, although I fear that they may give in without the powerful will and vision of Steve Jobs.

No one is asking for 20 different screen sizes. How about 2 instead?

Oh wait... there are already 2 different screen sizes... with 2 different aspect ratios. :eek:

But after the iPhone 4 and 4S are phased out... Apple will have one aspect ratio for the iPhone and iPod Touch.

And if they decided to add an additional screen size... it wouldn't bankrupt the company.

Remember... this is the same company who is able to manage 7.9" and 9.7" tablets... 11", 13" and 15" laptops... and 21" and 27" desktops.

Edit: spelling
 
Last edited:

Fishticks

macrumors 6502
Sep 20, 2012
297
40
At the risk of using the vastly over-used "Steve would have never" phraseology, I will mention that one of the things Steve did when he came back to Apple was cut way, way down on the product catalog.

I suppose we're now entering an era where each product category now has a "heavy" and "light" or "large" and "small" variant in it. iPod touch or nano, Macbook pro or air, iMac or mac mini. So now... iPhone big or small?

Yeah.
If Steve came back now, he would cut way way down the catalog.
He would certainly suppress iPhone, IPad and... Maybe iPod too. Which would only leave MacBook pro and Air on Apple's so incredibly overcrowded catalog.
Lest he would also suppress them.
 

maxosx

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2012
2,385
1
Southern California
I don't understand the iFan's resistance to offering people a choice.

It's a long time Apple tradition, one that never ceases to amaze me. Jobs built what he thought was best for everyone. Then programmed them to switch off their minds, stand in awe, accept it, and proudly repeat that he knew best.

Buy whatever he was promoting then fawn over it as though it was the greatest product in the universe.

Taught to strike out in hate at anyone that dare disagree it's quite the phenomenon. One that repeats itself over & over, & over again as we witness here.

Then should Apple change their minds, in perfect sync the troops do a 180 & and fall all over themselves to admire Apples latest position. It's the only company that has a user base like this & precisely why Apple can sell in huge volume no matter the hypocrisy.

There's no doubt they build some great stuff, it's how they behave, as though everyone else are idiots... that's so bizarre. Kind of like the latest rumor of them working towards patenting a shop. Apple knows no limits.
 

Xiroteus

macrumors 65816
Mar 31, 2012
1,297
75
It's a long time Apple tradition, one that never ceases to amaze me. Jobs built what he thought was best for everyone. Then programmed them to switch off their minds, stand in awe, accept it, and proudly repeat that he knew best.

That is one thing that bugs me about Apple, choice? Nah, Apple tells you want you want! I like choice, like when the retina macbooks were released and people talked about wanting optical drives still, people say, they still sell those, no, people want the new screen WITH the drive, Apple could sell two styles for those who want it, it may be a few people, it will be a deal breaker for some, same with the new iMacs.

Having a couple size phones would not be a horrible idea.
 

MrX8503

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2010
2,292
1,614
Design is hard, really hard.

Anyone that knows Apple, knows that they don't stray from their core very much.

Check this out.

http://charliehoehn.com/2013/01/14/15-years-of-apple-dot-com-homepage/

Their website barely changes over the course of 15 years! What's interesting is if you look at slides of other tech companies, they change drastically.

If you look at the iPod or iPhone line, there's very little change from its core. Apple is about design, core values, and focus.

Larger screen, stylus, removable battery, expandable memory! This is all white noise to Apple. The day that Apple goes down the path of throwing whatever that sticks to the wall is the day they'll lose focus.

If you want a larger screen phone, buy an Android device. That's called choice! Its no different from wanting to play PC games and buying a windows machine.

The iPhone 5 is the best phone I've ever owned. I made a choice to own a smaller phone with a damn good UX and solid ecosystem. You have the choice to buy a larger Android phone.
 

maxosx

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2012
2,385
1
Southern California
One thing's for sure. Despite iPhones huge sales volume, these rumors prove there's discontent brewing in the iOS space. Perhaps Apple will respond in a mutually beneficial way.

If they continue to resist following contemporary trends it will build to a point where it damages their credibility. Currently Apple's sales seem to be unaffected. Yet sooner or later every company must face the consequences of falling behind. This is a story well worth watching.
 

pocketdoc

macrumors 6502a
Apr 15, 2008
799
37
Design is hard, really hard.

Anyone that knows Apple, knows that they don't stray from their core very much.

Check this out.

http://charliehoehn.com/2013/01/14/15-years-of-apple-dot-com-homepage/

Their website barely changes over the course of 15 years! What's interesting is if you look at slides of other tech companies, they change drastically.

If you look at the iPod or iPhone line, there's very little change from its core. Apple is about design, core values, and focus.

Larger screen, stylus, removable battery, expandable memory! This is all white noise to Apple. The day that Apple goes down the path of throwing whatever that sticks to the wall is the day they'll lose focus.

If you want a larger screen phone, buy an Android device. That's called choice! Its no different from wanting to play PC games and buying a windows machine.

The iPhone 5 is the best phone I've ever owned. I made a choice to own a smaller phone with a damn good UX and solid ecosystem. You have the choice to buy a larger Android phone.

I think you are spot on.

Unfortunately for me and others, however, as I would like a bigger iPhone screen. I don't want to switch to Android and I hope I can resist.
 

Gigaman

macrumors regular
Aug 19, 2011
165
38
Just get an iPad Mini, no- just use a regular iPad, after all bigger is better right? If people could, they'd carry around their HD TVs! But for now, an iPad should do.
 
Last edited:

jvmxtra

macrumors 65816
Sep 21, 2010
1,245
3
No, I completely understand that people want bigger screens. But, where Apple is going to stay relevant isn't playing keep-up with competition, it's going to be by coming up with something that I don't even know I need yet, but that once I have it, I can't imagine living without. And a 5" screen isn't it. And by definition, I don't know what it is. I want Apple to be working on the next big thing that is going to blow me away, not spending time placating my short-sighted wants for a phone with a bigger screen.

People here complain on one hand about "where's Apples innovation these days?" And then turn around and complain that they aren't doing incremental things like giving them 20 options for screen size. My only solace in this is that Apple has been smart enough not to listen the the pundits, although I fear that they may give in without the powerful will and vision of Steve Jobs.

This mentality drives me nuts. This one size must fit all apple geeks.. Where do you come up w/ your measure?? DId you not see how much apple missed out by not offering multiple sizes? There are LOT Of apple geeks who would LOVE to see 5 inch devices w/ ios.. Trends are changing and apple is not adapting fast enough(never mind them being trend setter).. You love your 4 inch.. that's fine.. there are PLENTY OF apple geeks who wants 5+ inch phone.. Why do you think apple should only offer 4 inch? I don't get it.. Did you not see HOW much sammy made last quarter?

Those of you who says people want phone bigger than 4 inch should just carry tablet.
What are you thinking??? Maybe someone wants 5+ phone so that it can be both phone and tablet. I don't understand why one wanting multiple size is stopping from your 4 inch iphone from being awesome. Let your 4 inch iphone be awesome to you. Let someone else enjoy 5+ inch iphone.. why the hell not? What's it to you?

----------

Design is hard, really hard.

Anyone that knows Apple, knows that they don't stray from their core very much.

Check this out.

http://charliehoehn.com/2013/01/14/15-years-of-apple-dot-com-homepage/

Their website barely changes over the course of 15 years! What's interesting is if you look at slides of other tech companies, they change drastically.

If you look at the iPod or iPhone line, there's very little change from its core. Apple is about design, core values, and focus.

Larger screen, stylus, removable battery, expandable memory! This is all white noise to Apple. The day that Apple goes down the path of throwing whatever that sticks to the wall is the day they'll lose focus.

If you want a larger screen phone, buy an Android device. That's called choice! Its no different from wanting to play PC games and buying a windows machine.

The iPhone 5 is the best phone I've ever owned. I made a choice to own a smaller phone with a damn good UX and solid ecosystem. You have the choice to buy a larger Android phone.

Nobody is saying iphone 5 is not awesome. We are all just saying apple should have offered multiple sizes when they introduced iphone 5. I really really don't understand these people who want one size phone.. Does your iphone 5 somehow become less awesome if there are another version of iphone 5 w/ bigger screen?
 

Velli

macrumors 6502a
Feb 1, 2013
846
1,093
I really really don't understand these people who want one size phone.. Does your iphone 5 somehow become less awesome if there are another version of iphone 5 w/ bigger screen?

I used to shiver at the thought of a 5 inch iPhone. However, I'm starting to change my mind - under certain conditions. I don't see a problem with offering the iPhone at different screen sizes. As long as I can get a 3,5-4 inch iPhone WITH TOP END SPECS!, I don't really care how many other screen sizes Apple introduces. The thing that bugs me about the competition, is that you have to choose between screen size and specs. You CAN'T get a top-of-the-line Android or Windows phone without at least a 4.7 inch screen. If you want a high-end phone, you get a big screen, period. If Apple did that, I would bitch and moan and probably shift to a Windows phone (which I have considered, but didn't because I can't get a smallish phone with high-end specs). But if Apple want to introduce a 5 inch version of iPhone with the same specs as the 4 inch, to accomodate people who want that, be my guest. Just don't mess with my 4 inch options, please.
 

Stack Overflow

macrumors member
Dec 18, 2012
73
0
No, I completely understand that people want bigger screens.
Then you should also understand that means the "innovator's dilemma" has nothing to do with it then.

If people actually want it, like for real and not just that they merely think that's what they want, then there's nothing more to be said about it.

The only wiggle-room that allows for some relevance of that dilemma is if there's something else Apple could release instead of a larger screen that's even better still!

I have no idea what that could be. I mean, how exactly do you give the benefits of a larger screen without actually making a larger screen? A magnifying glass? A projection screen? An unfolding phone?

Much simpler, and more effective, I think, to just do the obvious and make a larger phone!

But, where Apple is going to stay relevant isn't playing keep-up with competition, it's going to be by coming up with something that I don't even know I need yet, but that once I have it, I can't imagine living without. And a 5" screen isn't it.
Sure, that'd definitely be nice. But sometimes Apple has to release something that someone else has as well. They did this with CD burners, they did it with wireless keyboards and mice. They did it with webcams, 3G, LTE, camera flash, installable applications...

I mean, honestly, how silly is it to say Apple must never do something just because someone else already did it? "Apple, you can't make a larger phone, because someone else already makes a larger phone!" What?!?

And by definition, I don't know what it is. I want Apple to be working on the next big thing that is going to blow me away, not spending time placating my short-sighted wants for a phone with a bigger screen.
Why not both? Apple is missing out on a *lot* of sales for lack of a larger phone. It's not like they can only invent one thing at a time or something, and there's a very strong need for them to make a larger iPhone.

People here complain on one hand about "where's Apples innovation these days?" And then turn around and complain that they aren't doing incremental things like giving them 20 options for screen size.
People complain no matter what. After all, aren't you complaining about this larger iPhone? You're the very person you are complaining about!

The problem appears to be that there is a vocal minority that seems to think that if they don't personally like a product, it's a failure. Don't like the iPad mini? OMG it's a mistake! Don't like the iPhone 5? What's happening, Apple's losing their edge! Retina MacBook Pro is too expensive? Apple is doomed!

Give me a break! The world doesn't revolve around you (or me or anyone else). All that matters is, are there a good number of people who do want that product? Then, no matter what you might personally think about it, that product deserves to exist (barring some other reason, like that it's dangerous or something, which clearly has no bearing here). The other thing is whether one of the things Apple makes is what you want. If so, then you've got nothing to complain about. Buy the one you want, and let others buy the one they want.

Everyone wins!

My only solace in this is that Apple has been smart enough not to listen the the pundits, although I fear that they may give in without the powerful will and vision of Steve Jobs.
I'm not asking to listen to the pundits. I'm asking them to listen to their customers and to the market. Yes, sometimes they need to listen, then say "no". But just like the iPad mini, Apple really would benefit from a larger iPhone, so long as they are able to make one up to Apple's high standards, and I have no reason to think they can't. Do you?
 

Stack Overflow

macrumors member
Dec 18, 2012
73
0
Actually I didn't say they won't release a new non-Retina device. Did you read carefully? I said they won't release a 264 PPI iPhone.
I just applied the same logic to the iPad. What's the difference?

I know you didn't, nor did I claim that you said that. But for practical purposes, the argument boils to that effectively. You disagree, and that is absolutely fine by me.
"I didn't say you said that, I just said that what you said means that." What?

You're wrong. My argument does not mean that people specifically want larger pixels. I don't think there are many people at all who want their iPhone to have larger pixels.

My argument is that, given the design constraints, that Apple may have to release one with larger pixels. They did the exact same thing with the iPad mini. This was because they *had to*, not because they *wanted to*.

Of course. You don't have to carry these devices around with you. Also a TV or computer is typically mounted in a specific spot and is not easily moved closer during use.
And here's the part where you pretend to completely miss the point. The point is that BIGGER PIXELS are acceptable at times if that means you get a BIGGER DISPLAY. Whether you can move it around or not has nothing to do with that.

For the sake of argument we'll assume you are correct.
That there's a considerable market for larger phones, even if that means larger pixels? This isn't something we have to take my word on, just look at the market that presently exists. People are buying phones with larger pixels and larger screens by the millions. This isn't a controversial notion, it's reality.

Now what happens to the number of interested customers if resolution is also higher too, and the image is just as sharp as or sharper than the smaller model? Well it goes up, for sure.
Again (how many times do I have to reiterate this?!), clearly a super retina display is going to be better than a sub-retina display. But given the constraints involved, Apple is almost certainly going to be faced with one of three options:

  1. Make a super retina iPhone Plus - This will be extremely costly, and have very low yield rates, further adding to cost and leading to supply rates that just makes customers mad because no one can buy them.
  2. Make a proper retina iPhone Plus, but at a different screen dimensions from any other iOS device, creating yet another target for developers to have to design for.
  3. Do like they did with the iPad mini, and make a compromise that will mean sub-retina resolutions, but minimize developer inconvenience by using existing screen resolutions and dimensions.

To me, the third one seems most likely. You seems to prefer the first one. Were it possible, I agree, it would be better. But I don't think it's feasible to do at a reasonable price and at a rate that's able to provide a reasonable supply. And just like with the iPad mini, I think Apple will have to deal with the technology that is available and won't be able to sprinkle fairy dust and just make those issues go away.

Maybe they can. That would be absolutely fantastic. I just don't see it. Not this year. And once it's released, and once the technology does become reasonable, boom! instant upgrade to super retina, just like from the iPhone 3G to 4.

If choice is really what you advocate, then you'll fully support an iPhone PlusPlus with 360 DPI or more right along side your iPhone Plus.
Of course I support the idea of it, but reality doesn't support the existence of it. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but that I don't think it can be done in time for the next phone launch.
 

MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
Because it isn't a waste of time to stop and wonder why people would take time to do what has historically not worked in the past? Apple nearly died when they decided that innovation wasn't as important as providing choice. Remember the early 90's when there were so many Apple models that had only one or two differences and how each of these models clouded/confused the customer?

Agreed. Problem is we are heading that way again, the iPad has been updated far too many times in the last 12 months. Apple needs to go back to proper cycles. Poeple are going to think twice about buying something new if it's going to be updated in the next 3'months

----------

You're not as smart as you think you are.

If you can work that out from forum posts, you sir are a genius ;)
 

mnemonix

macrumors regular
Jun 23, 2005
230
2
Ugh, this is the end for Apple. Exploring new markets for potential increased revenue.

How dare they not innovate more!

Sorry for the sarcasm, just wanted to get that in before the drama queen's rain down!

Because making a larger phone ISN'T innovation, it's just following the competition and competing on their terms instead of leading the pack.
 
S

syd430

Guest
I appreciated the extra 0.5" of the iPhone at first. But as the months go by, I'm starting to wonder if they should have just left it at 3.5". I tend to fumble a lot more to reach the top edges of screen when using it with one hand.

It would have also been even lighter and probably thinner if they just left it at 3.5" too.
 

Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,929
12,480
NC
Because making a larger phone ISN'T innovation, it's just following the competition and competing on their terms instead of leading the pack.

You're right... they should be making smaller phones. Or maybe stay the same. THAT'S innovation. :D

But seriously... you may say Apple is following the competition... but maybe the competition is onto something.

Every time someone buys a phone larger than 4"... it proves there's a market for it.

There were 4.3" phones THREE years ago. And the trend today is even larger. People like 'em.

If larger phones were a mistake... all phones would have gone back to 4" or below. But they didn't.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.