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toke lahti

macrumors 68040
Apr 23, 2007
3,270
502
Helsinki, Finland
As for killing the Pro line, it is possible that this is the plan, but I doubt that you are right about that. It would be awfully odd for the CEO to go out of his way to announce that an update is coming this year, then renege on that promise. Although the Mac Pro does not generate a lot of revenue for Apple at this point, it's not like they have to invent anything to come out with a significant update.
You are talking about company, which axed Shake implying that you can do same things with Motion (which was/is as far away from Shake as something could be).
Company, which stopped selling FCS to industry by saying that you should use FCPx, which was nowhere near to be ready for production environments at the time of release (or ever after).
Company, that axed xServe, because "hardly no-one was buying it".
These are like saying to truck buyer that you are fine with a bicycle.
Considering the state of MP, they could easily say that "hardly no-one is buying it". In the light of history, I wouldn't be surprised if MP is axed for good. "Hardly no-one needed pcie-slots anymore."

The problem here is, that Apple don't have to look anything else than revenue now.
They don't need "a supercomputer" to show what they can build or how advanced their OS for it is.
Instead they can brag how thin edges their desktop has.
 

ApplesAOranges

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2011
335
3
iPhone is not the flagship!

Flagship is always the companies most expensive and the most powerful product. Flagship doesn´t have to be the most selling product, in fact it rarely is. Just look at any company. Get that through your skulls!

Mac Pro is the flagship, period... or was. If it´s discontinued then iMac is the flagship.
 

apple-win

macrumors regular
Dec 4, 2012
226
0
...

I have switched to Microsoft products three times over the last 20 years, and it never lasted more than a year before I came back to Mac. In the end, I want my computer to serve me, not me serve my computer. This does not fit well with the Windows way of doing business.

...

Have you tried Windows 7? It is very stable.

Seriously, its task bar is very good. Best for multi-tasking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykFn0ZT64iw
 

danielsutton

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2011
388
161
Not so fast!

Hello Macrumors Netizens,

Just when you thought it was safe to predict the end of the Mac Pro... NOT SO FAST!

Apple did say that they are releasing a redesigned Mac Pro this year, and this development in the EU only adds more pressure on Apple to release a wholly redesigned system. In fact, Apple may have seen this coming, and this is why they decided to redesign their system.

At first, I thought the issue was that of environmental regulations, similar to how the U.S. de-listed several of Apples products from the EPEAT specification. But reading further into it, it looks like this is a safety issue, regarding the blades of the cooling fans and the wiring of the USB and other ports.

Anyway, this is interesting news, and this is not the end of Apple, or of the Mac Pro. Customers have the whole month of February to purchase current modes if they so choose, and the AppleCare warranties that they purchase will be honored for their full length. Nothing to worry about here...

--Daniel
 

Lennholm

macrumors 65816
Sep 4, 2010
1,003
210
iPhone is not the flagship!

Flagship is always the companies most expensive and the most powerful product. Flagship doesn´t have to be the most selling product, in fact it rarely is. Just look at any company. Get that through your skulls!

Mac Pro is the flagship, period... or was. If it´s discontinued then iMac is the flagship.

Wrong, the flagship product is the company's most successful product. iPhone is Apple's most successful product when it comes to both sales, revenue and profits, the latter being the important measure.
 

Luis Ortega

macrumors 65816
May 10, 2007
1,139
331
Anyway, this is interesting news, and this is not the end of Apple, or of the Mac Pro. Customers have the whole month of February to purchase current modes if they so choose, and the AppleCare warranties that they purchase will be honored for their full length. Nothing to worry about here.

Why would anyone want to buy three-year-old obsolete hardware?
 

johanf

macrumors newbie
Feb 25, 2008
27
0
Sweden
Continuity is very important for many companies

Why would anyone want to buy three-year-old obsolete hardware?
For most companies it is important to have continuity. If a computer breaks, they may need to be able to get a new one fast. They would not like to rely on the second hand market only.

Killing Final Cut Studio before a new and better product was available was a big NOOO which scared many and pushed them away from using Mac.

Killing Mac Pro before a new one is available scares off companies too.

I have been in business where a Mac CAD station died and we had to find a replacement immediately to meet deadlines and not loose money and upset clients.

I seriously think Apple should reconsider the importance of such factors.:(
 

ApplesAOranges

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2011
335
3
Wrong, the flagship product is the company's most successful product. iPhone is Apple's most successful product when it comes to both sales, revenue and profits, the latter being the important measure.

Wrong.

Look at for example headphones companies. The lower budget headphones sell always more than the companies flagships. Look at any other companies, the flagships hardly ever are the "most successful product". *palmface

Get your facts straight. iPhone is NOT the flagship.
 

Drunken Master

macrumors 65816
Jul 19, 2011
1,060
0
Wrong.

Look at for example headphones companies. The lower budget headphones sell always more than the companies flagships. Look at any other companies, the flagships hardly ever are the "most successful product". *palmface

Get your facts straight. iPhone is NOT the flagship.

From dictionary.com:

flagship [ˈflægˌʃɪp]
n
1. (Transport / Nautical Terms) a ship, esp in a fleet, aboard which the commander of the fleet is quartered
2. (Transport / Nautical Terms) the most important ship belonging to a shipping company
3. (Business / Marketing) a single item from a related group considered as the most important, often in establishing a public image.
 

Lennholm

macrumors 65816
Sep 4, 2010
1,003
210
Wrong.

Look at for example headphones companies. The lower budget headphones sell always more than the companies flagships. Look at any other companies, the flagships hardly ever are the "most successful product". *palmface

Get your facts straight. iPhone is NOT the flagship.

You know, you're pretty cocky, arrogant and rude for someone who's wrong.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,296
3,890
You did notice that some of those mobos handle routing of discreet GPU back to TB controller with a pretty simple solution: external cable?

You did not notice that:

Arock "DisplayPort input (for test only)" [ Extremely likely it isn't certified. virtual GPU feature present. ]
Asus P8Z77-V no DisplayPort input [ likely done through virutal GPU ]
Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UP5 TH no DisplayPort input [ likely done through virtual GPU]
MSI Z77A-G45 no DisplayPort input [ likely done through virtual GPU ]

It is a "solution" in search of a problem. Not only is it inelegant it is unnecessary and doesn't even likely pass TB certification. It also is not a solution for Thunderbolt. That only passes Thunderbolt certification (if it has ) because of the iGPU.

Most of these boards pass certifcation because the only GPU hooked physically to Thunderbolt is the iGPU. There is no user dis-connectable connection to the TB controller.

Some vendors went out and wasted time and effort on these Rube Goldberg solutions. I haven't seen one of them that actually passed Intel's certification process. Lots of folks wanted a PCI-e card Thunderbolt. If Intel had been able to 'hi-jack' the USB socket that might have happen but it didn't. They repurposed a standard video port and video is part of the mix. [ Apple probably would not buy in without video anyway. ]

The virtual GPU is a clean partial component to a solution but is not the solution by itself. The embedded ( iGPU for these specific boards ) GPU is the core of the solution. There are other marginal value add to the vGPU for performance. This virtualization doesn't work at all though in OS X.


Not enough form-over-function in "professional" workstation?

Frankly that "loop back" solution is form over function. The function is to connect to a monitor. That cable connected to a monitor would just function. It actually some sort of "form" of 'have to' pump out through TB that get you that Rube Goldberg "solution".
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,296
3,890
Why would anyone want to buy three-year-old obsolete hardware?

Someone with 5-7 year old even more "obsolete" (isn't good enough for the job anymore ) hardware some of which is actually classified by Apple as obsolete (because it is old). The vast majority of Mac Pro buyers are gong to be folks who already own a computer. That computer relative to a Mac Pro is a reason to "move up".

Technically they can move to another alternative that in some cases is even faster, but incrementally so. Just skipping technology generations is a larger shift than the incremental between adjacent ones.

For some the migration costs to another OS platform would outweigh the value add.

The reason why the vast majority of folks are just moaning about the situation is because their current hardware is good enough and/or their perceived migration costs are high. Most are sitting on even older stuff than this.


P.S. if go to Dell/HP/etc sites they are all still selling at least a subset of the older models. It is not that obsolete.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,296
3,890
You are talking about company, which axed Shake implying that you can do same things with Motion (which was/is as far away from Shake as something could be).

The CEO of Apple said that Apple had purchased Shake to:

"... giving them powerful tools that were far more cost-effective than what they were accustomed to… ..."
https://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/2...-designer-apple-doesnt-care-about-pro-market/

They did. So much for the CEO's words not being indicative of what Apple is going to do.

Shake didn't work as a long tern independent software package because frankly most of the users didn't want more cost-effective tools. Apple has a notion that professional being engaged in making a living delivery service as opposed to exclusive prima donna status club. No one is going to unilaterally dictate to Apple what to do. Most of these "apple doesn't like pros" stories boil down to "Apple isn't going to do exactly what you say". Apple listens, they just are submissive.


Company, which stopped selling FCS to industry by saying that you should use FCPx, which was nowhere near to be ready for production environments at the time of release (or ever after).

Second part first. That's laughably not true. FCPX has exited some, not all production environments. The notion that it can never re-enter some of the environments points far more to non-Apple behaviour than to anything Apple has or will do.

As for the first part....

And yet it was for sale a month or so later. Basically standard Apple practice. Pull the product from the market and then for those who need maintenance/continuity copies make it available after the message clearly goes out that that version is done. It isn't going to be a debate of continuing it.

Yeah it is a peculiar process but the response typically played out publicly is also rather peculiar and unprofessional (FUD about widely disclosed future product roadmaps which are against corporate policy and petitions to tell Apple how to do product management) . That is one reason why it doesn't change.

Company, that axed xServe, because "hardly no-one was buying it".

Surely you are not trying to assert that there were lots of people buying them (lots being relative to the Mac market. iOS and iPods numbers are just misdirection. )


These are like saying to truck buyer that you are fine with a bicycle.

And yet sales of OS X Server went substantially up after Apple canceled the XServe. For vast majority of Small-Medium Businesses an Mac mini serve actually does work.

Again the protest after were very illuminating of what folks had been telling Apple. There were petitions to "free" OS X because all the large (can only use rack solution) shops wanted was OS X in a virtual machine on commodity hardware. If you tell Apple you don't want a system solution (hardware + software ) then you are basically telling them you don't want Apple product. So they stopped selling it when folks stop buying the systems and said they just weren't going to buy them in the future either.





Considering the state of MP, they could easily say that "hardly no-one is buying it". In the light of history, I wouldn't be surprised if MP is axed for good. "Hardly no-one needed pcie-slots anymore."

This is all far more dependent upon what customers are going to do. Apple is going to give the Mac Pro market another shot to back up the talk with product purchases or not. If the Mac Pro gets back on a growth path that is in line with the Mac market then it will probably stay. If the Mac Pro numbers continue to recede then it will get axed. It is just as much, if not more, up to the customers whether that happens or not.

The current numbers being low probably do get a "get out of jail free " card. Frankly the 'other' external forces Intel's slow cycle on Xeon E5 updates , the mismatch between where GPUs and CPUs are going and the 10 year old core design assumptions in the current Mac Pro, and the treat to the Mac market due to the attack of the killer tablets resetting priorities means the number of Mac Pro sales has more noise than signal in them.



The problem here is, that Apple don't have to look anything else than revenue now.

Growth rather than revenue has always been (since return of Jobs ) been a key indicator of whether Apple has a "great" product or not. The revenue issue takes care of itself because Apple doesn't sell products at a loss. As long as there are more then revenue goes up by side effect.

It is hard to claim you have an "insanely great" product if fewer and fewer people are buying it over time.

They don't need "a supercomputer" to show what they can build or how advanced their OS for it is.
Instead they can brag how thin edges their desktop has.

I think you are confused about Apple advertisements being about what Apple (as a company) is about. They are just ads.

The Mac Pro's role is to deliver server or supercomputer performance (from several years ago) into the hands of a wider set of users at more economical price points than used to have access to that technology through a combination of software and hardware that is a value add.

Apple isn't selling boxes that every one else sells ( or could sell after using their trusty screwdriver to build one) just to sell a box. Sell the most cost effective Geekbench score was never the issue.
 

grayter1

macrumors newbie
Jun 18, 2012
14
0
Saint Paul, MN
Hackintosh is for hobbyist. I don't think it's a good idea to use Hackintosh for doing business.

True. I just built one a few days ago (projects were getting too big for my 17" MBP), and while the build itself was easy, I never got the driver situation fully worked out. To be honest, I didn't try all that hard, but with a new major project coming in the door, I installed W7 and went on my merry way. I can't trust the invoice to a Hackintosh... yet.

I'll keep tinkering with it, but I'm a working video professional, so I'll use whatever works - today that's a fast (upgradeable) PC running Premiere Pro CS6.
 

G51989

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2012
2,530
10
NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
So this regulation is about fan blades turning off when the computer is opened?

What kind of idiot opens a computer when it's on? If you do that, you deserve to lose your fingers. Another regulation protecting the brain dead.

As if the fans in a Mac pro....or any home computer can break the skin....let alone cut off your finger :p
 

ApplesAOranges

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2011
335
3
You know, you're pretty cocky, arrogant and rude for someone who's wrong.

I´m not wrong. iPhone is NOT the flagship. iPhone could not even exist without the Mac. Even if Mac Pro wouldn´t be the flagship anymore, ´cause it´s so freaking outdated, the flagship would have to be a Mac, maybe the 15" Retina MBP or the new iMac, but DEFINITELY NOT the iPhone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_product

Core products or flagship products are a company's products which are most directly related to their core competencies. These products are then integrated into a variety of end products, either by the company holding the core product or by a second company to which the core product is sold to, and the end products are sold to users. In other words core product is the main product which manufacturing by the company for the customer.
Core products are central to the company's performance and make the most money that sustain the business. Core products are also usually the first products that the company created and sustained itself from its founding like the Windows Operating system for Microsoft, The Macintosh computer for Apple Inc., the Google Search platform for Google, etc. Therefore there is emphasis placed on the profitability of core products while working on other products hoping that they will become a competency for the company. The products that make the most profit are usually the core products. Other products that are not considered core products are called side projects, side products and experimental products.


Saying the iPhone is the flagship is ridiculous, it´s like saying like Coca Cola T-shirt would be Coca Cola Company´s flagship, not the actual Coca Cola.
 

Macist

macrumors 6502a
Mar 13, 2009
784
462
Side note: I wish people would stop using FCPX as an example of Apple abandoning Pros. It was launched in a ridiculous way but now it's perfectly capable of the kinds of things the previous version was and its way faster and generally more stable. Indeed, in some regards it makes its rivals look positively old skool.
 

Lennholm

macrumors 65816
Sep 4, 2010
1,003
210
I´m not wrong. iPhone is NOT the flagship. iPhone could not even exist without the Mac. Even if Mac Pro wouldn´t be the flagship anymore, ´cause it´s so freaking outdated, the flagship would have to be a Mac, maybe the 15" Retina MBP or the new iMac, but DEFINITELY NOT the iPhone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_product

Core products or flagship products are a company's products which are most directly related to their core competencies. These products are then integrated into a variety of end products, either by the company holding the core product or by a second company to which the core product is sold to, and the end products are sold to users. In other words core product is the main product which manufacturing by the company for the customer.
Core products are central to the company's performance and make the most money that sustain the business. Core products are also usually the first products that the company created and sustained itself from its founding like the Windows Operating system for Microsoft, The Macintosh computer for Apple Inc., the Google Search platform for Google, etc. Therefore there is emphasis placed on the profitability of core products while working on other products hoping that they will become a competency for the company. The products that make the most profit are usually the core products. Other products that are not considered core products are called side projects, side products and experimental products.


Saying the iPhone is the flagship is ridiculous, it´s like saying like Coca Cola T-shirt would be Coca Cola Company´s flagship, not the actual Coca Cola.

That Wikipedia article is about "core products", even though it seems to erroneously imply that "core product" and "flagship product" is the same thing. Still, the description of "core products" best describes OS X/iOS, certainly not the Mac Pro.

"Core products are central to the company's performance and make the most money that sustain the business"
That does not in any way describe the Mac Pro or even Mac computers anymore, but it describes the iPhone perfectly.

As core products of Apple, the article you cited lists "Macintosh", which today means OS X or possibly OS X based computers, and...
TADA, iPhone!

What's ridiculous is comparing iPhone to trivial, derivative merchandise.
 

Badagri

macrumors 6502a
Aug 9, 2012
500
78
UK
Have you tried Windows 7? It is very stable.

Seriously, its task bar is very good. Best for multi-tasking.

Windows 7 & 8 are great OS's. I usually get uptime's 2 - 4 weeks before updates requiring reboots. The only thing I detest the most about Windows, is Cleartype. Those skinny fonts/font rendering is atrocious compared to OS X.
 

adversus

macrumors regular
Sep 11, 2009
164
18
Portland, OR
I'm going to go out on a limb and say all you people freaking out over not being able to buy a shiny new Mac Pro every year aren't really pro business users.

A Pro business user doesn't refresh their gear just because some new version comes up. They update their gear when it NEEDS to be upgraded. Mac Pro's have always been designed to have a longer shelf life than the iMacs.
 

Badagri

macrumors 6502a
Aug 9, 2012
500
78
UK
I'm going to go out on a limb and say all you people freaking out over not being able to buy a shiny new Mac Pro every year aren't really pro business users.

Depends on your definition of pro business users. It's not so black and white. There's some out there that are only just a couple of guys running a business that need the power. There's some that are a huge company that could require hundreds of units.

A Pro business user doesn't refresh their gear just because some new version comes up. They update their gear when it NEEDS to be upgraded. Mac Pro's have always been designed to have a longer shelf life than the iMacs.

Also true but, again not so black and white. Some do need the latest especially in a dire economy. Speedy projects as quickly as possible. Then there's the nerdy enthusiasts who do have some in their business.

Only really big companies wont refresh the gear ever year. Hundreds of units and software. Music/Movie/CAD production etc
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,193
1,442
Wrong, the flagship product is the company's most successful product. iPhone is Apple's most successful product when it comes to both sales, revenue and profits, the latter being the important measure.

If it were the most successful product or Toyota's flagship would probably be the freaking Corolla. A flagship is always the highest profile (often luxury type status) and/or most powerful product offered. Thus, one could argue that either the Mac Pro (although I think in some respects like graphics the top-end iMac has it beat since it's out of date) or the iPhone is Apple flagship product (iPhone being the most high profile product and the Mac Pro being the most powerful product). But since this is also typically by class, one could just as easily argue that the iPhone is the flagship iOS product and the Mac Pro is the flagship Mac. Given Apple's lack of attention, however, frankly I think the highest profile Mac right now is the Macbook Pro Retina, but that will change as soon as all go Retina.

In Naval terms, the flagship is the most powerful/visible ship in the fleet. There's typically only ONE of them. In terms of cars, it's the top-end vehicle, often within a given class. For Chevrolet and sports cars, this would be the Corvette (sorry Camaro). For Cadillac sedans, this is currently the XTS, although it's supposedly going to be replaced soon. But if you went by unit sales success, the flagship wouldn't be any of those.
 

KaraH

macrumors 6502
Nov 12, 2012
452
5
DC
I'm going to go out on a limb and say all you people freaking out over not being able to buy a shiny new Mac Pro every year aren't really pro business users.

A Pro business user doesn't refresh their gear just because some new version comes up. They update their gear when it NEEDS to be upgraded. Mac Pro's have always been designed to have a longer shelf life than the iMacs.

The problem is not every year but that the latest revision of the MP is several years out of date.

I am sure I am not the only one who was not near the end of their machine's useful life at the 2010 release. Even though it was an iMac at the time I had maxed it out so was good for awhile longer. By the time I was looking for a new machine again a new pro would be out there and maybe even reviews done of it.

Then apple dragged things out. Then the iMac door got slammed in my face because no WAY was I going to allow one of those 2012 iMacs on my desk (I thought the ones before it were bad enough).

Now I have two choices. Wait longer than I planned on or buy a machine that is years out of date and was already a 'do not buy' in, what, 2011. My wanting a new MP out there is because right now I am stuck between a rock and a hard place with a computer that shows its age more with each year (and is no longer under applecare). I need a MP soonest not because I want a new toy but because I do not have a whole lot of options.
 

Lennholm

macrumors 65816
Sep 4, 2010
1,003
210
If it were the most successful product or Toyota's flagship would probably be the freaking Corolla. A flagship is always the highest profile (often luxury type status) and/or most powerful product offered. Thus, one could argue that either the Mac Pro (although I think in some respects like graphics the top-end iMac has it beat since it's out of date) or the iPhone is Apple flagship product (iPhone being the most high profile product and the Mac Pro being the most powerful product). But since this is also typically by class, one could just as easily argue that the iPhone is the flagship iOS product and the Mac Pro is the flagship Mac. Given Apple's lack of attention, however, frankly I think the highest profile Mac right now is the Macbook Pro Retina, but that will change as soon as all go Retina.

In Naval terms, the flagship is the most powerful/visible ship in the fleet. There's typically only ONE of them. In terms of cars, it's the top-end vehicle, often within a given class. For Chevrolet and sports cars, this would be the Corvette (sorry Camaro). For Cadillac sedans, this is currently the XTS, although it's supposedly going to be replaced soon. But if you went by unit sales success, the flagship wouldn't be any of those.

Actually,

"an adjective describing the most prominent or highly touted product, brand, location, or service among those offered by a company" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship

So basically, the flagship product of a company is whatever that company chooses to be their flagship product by their promotion of it. The product which the company is identified with the most (which is the most successful product, unless the company chooses to steer their brand recognition towards a particular other product) is simply going to be considered their flagship product, and for Apple that is certainly iPhone these days.

And the flagship in the navy is not necessarily the most powerful or visible ship in the fleet, it's whatever ship carries the admiral.
 
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