Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:54 AM   #26
niuniu
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: A man of the people. The right sort of people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydde View Post
The WBC skanks (tossers) have not heretofore attempted violent conquest of a region/state/country or actual destruction of things that offend them. So far, they are just noise.

The society they're in is different. They're the same sort of crazies but on a tighter leash.
niuniu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 29, 2013, 12:04 PM   #27
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Surely one could make a similar point about the Westburo Baptist church...
The WBC has maybe 40 members. Not an apt comparison at all IMO
rdowns is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 29, 2013, 12:34 PM   #28
jnpy!$4g3cwk
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydde View Post
Here is where we have a problem:

Islamists Torch Timbuktu Library

If they believe Shari'a supports this kind of BS, something needs to be done to eradicate that sort of belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Surely one could make a similar point about the Westburo Baptist church...
So, is the torching of the Timbuktu Library (and previous destruction of artifacts a millenium old) wrong, or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
I believe Sharia law is just Islamic cultural law. I see no reason for the sky to fall if people freely choose to use it in family matters and other similar areas.

So, is it OK to burn the library if people "freely choose" it, or, not? Which people? Preserving the artifacts for 1000 years was compatible with some people's Sharia, and, not with other people's Sharia. Cultural relativism doesn't provide an out for this one.
jnpy!$4g3cwk is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 29, 2013, 12:39 PM   #29
skunk
macrumors Demi-God
 
skunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Republic of Ukistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
So, is the torching of the Timbuktu Library (and previous destruction of artifacts a millenium old) wrong, or not?




So, is it OK to burn the library if people "freely choose" it, or, not? Which people? Preserving the artifacts for 1000 years was compatible with some people's Sharia, and, not with other people's Sharia. Cultural relativism doesn't provide an out for this one.
Burning libraries and destroying artworks is utterly contemptible, whichever way you look at it. These are crimes against humanity.
__________________
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted the spoons." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
skunk is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 29, 2013, 12:43 PM   #30
Huntn
Thread Starter
macrumors G3
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Surely one could make a similar point about the Westburo Baptist church...
Indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
I believe Sharia law is just Islamic cultural law. I see no reason for the sky to fall if people freely choose to use it in family matters and other similar areas.

I would have thought US sharia law would be pretty liberal anyway.
Does it exist anywhere in the U.S.? You have a good point that always applies to laws based on a religion- Individuals pick and choose what they want to include and base it on scripture that is not always clear, but reflective of their cultural views and interpretations. It seems to me that the forces who are pushing Sharia Law are the fanatical, intolerant types. Anyone, please correct me if this is false.
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:41 AM   #31
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Destroying relics is disgusting and a crime against humanity. I merely wanted to point out that crazies aren't confined to Islam or to Africa. Sorry for not being clear.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
Indeed.


Does it exist anywhere in the U.S.? You have a good point that always applies to laws based on a religion- Individuals pick and choose what they want to include and base it on scripture that is not always clear, but reflective of their cultural views and interpretations. It seems to me that the forces who are pushing Sharia Law are the fanatical, intolerant types. Anyone, please correct me if this is false.
In the UK the Jews get to use their own laws for some family matters - I fail to see why other religions can't be treated the same.

Sure there could be family pressure to pick a given choice - but that pressure could affect the de-facto outcome anyway.
Eraserhead is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 4, 2013, 03:06 PM   #32
sjinsjca
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Surely one could make a similar point about the Westburo Baptist church...
Bingo! My point (in my posts above) entirely.

Intolerance, ignorance, misogyny, homophobia, brutality, racism... there's lots in common between the two retrograde theologies and their adherents.

Let's hope WBC doesn't rule us someday. Or the islamists.
sjinsjca is online now   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 4, 2013, 03:21 PM   #33
sjinsjca
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
I believe sjinsjca is pointing out practices that are condoned under Sharia law in certain regions?
No. I am pointing out what is ordained by islamic scripture-- the Qu'ran and Hadith.

Some countries and regions interpret and implement things in varying ways, and there are regional customs such as headscarves-vs.-full-burkhas which have nothing to do with the fundament of shari'ah. Similarly there are regional aberrations such as the "dancing boys" of Afghanistan; this does not reflect on shari'ah or its requirements or scriptural foundation.

Those who have replied to this thread saying I don't know what I'm talking about are engaging in meaningless ad hominem knee-jerkery. I invite them to illustrate my alleged wrongness by spotlighting authoritative and comprehensive scripture-based sources specifying (for example) equality of the sexes (in matters of law or inheritance, for instance) or tolerance for homosexuals.

Expect crickets.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
In the UK the Jews get to use their own laws for some family matters - I fail to see why other religions can't be treated the same.
In the UK, Jews don't regard a woman's testimony in court as worth 1/4 that of a man's, etc.

"Treated the same" is the crux of the matter!
sjinsjca is online now   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 4, 2013, 03:32 PM   #34
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjinsjca View Post
In the UK, Jews don't regard a woman's testimony in court as worth 1/4 that of a man's, etc.

"Treated the same" is the crux of the matter!
If it was introduced it would always be trumped by human rights legislation, so treating a woman has having 1/4 of the worth wouldn't be allowed.
__________________
Perhaps this is not such a bad idea. Can anyone prove that many politicians aren't the offspring of a jackass? - rdowns
Eraserhead is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 4, 2013, 04:07 PM   #35
Huntn
Thread Starter
macrumors G3
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjinsjca View Post
No. I am pointing out what is ordained by islamic scripture-- the Qu'ran and Hadith.
Are these laws written as laws or are they scripture that are interpreted as defacto laws?
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 4, 2013, 04:40 PM   #36
sjinsjca
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
Are these laws written as laws or are they scripture that are interpreted as defacto laws?
In practice, both.
sjinsjca is online now   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 4, 2013, 04:56 PM   #37
sjinsjca
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
If it was introduced it would always be trumped by human rights legislation, so treating a woman has having 1/4 of the worth wouldn't be allowed.

Maybe in the UK.

(Maybe even in the UK after time. But I wouldn't bet on it, given that such quaint Western notions as freedom-of-speech are routinely ground beneath the boot-heel of islamist sympathies recently.)

But if so, it's not shari'ah, as Qu'ran 24:4 specifies that fornicators be flogged unless four witnesses attest to their defense; hence a woman's testimony in cases of rape counts for nothing unless four male witnesses support her, and in fact her accusation will likely blow back on her and result in horrific punishment by flogging as stipulated by scripture, cf. cases such as http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtu...s#.URA7rKXWW2w

(I should also note that the Qu'ran regards women's court testimony in financial matters as worth half that of a man's, not 1/4 as in the case of allegations of rape or adultery.)
sjinsjca is online now   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 4, 2013, 08:19 PM   #38
Huntn
Thread Starter
macrumors G3
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjinsjca View Post
In practice, both.
Not that one way or the others makes any difference regarding the authenticity of God's rules, but when it comes to interpretation, that's an additional strike. Here's an example, text that in a specific instance: God strikes down the fornicator... God strikes down the homosexual. It's very likely that the inferred laws can come out very different on the other end. This is basically like all 2000 year old religions. We just don't know if what we are reading is God's word, mans' creation, creative interpretation, or combinations of all.

I can easily see no God at all involved in the process, but admit this post veers from the intent of the thread, from a generally reasonable legal system, for the West, does Shiria Law have any place? Let's see a version of it pushed by liberal Muslims and see what we get.
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5, 2013, 03:15 AM   #39
RSL
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Laws are voted, not written in stone.
RSL is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:06 PM   #40
skunk
macrumors Demi-God
 
skunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Republic of Ukistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSL View Post
Laws are voted, not written in stone.
You are including Moses out? Wasn't he a lawgiver?
skunk is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:57 PM   #41
PracticalMac
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Religious laws is based on the knowledge of the times, and for the most part is static (a reason governments exist, they are far more flexible with rules).

Many of those laws have sound basis, but to me have ambiguous description, masculine point of view, extreme punishment, or other factors at odds with what is known today.

Sharia, and other such laws, served their purpose and should be retired, or at least updated to reflect what we know about human behavior and importance.

Jesus said it best, love they neighbor, don't keep secrets, forgive (ok, very simplified, but works)
__________________
FireWire 1394 Intelligent network guaranteed data transfer, 1500mA power, Ethernet compatible
Read: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 70% faster then USB2
Write: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 48% faster
PracticalMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:48 PM   #42
skunk
macrumors Demi-God
 
skunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Republic of Ukistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Jesus said it best, love they neighbor, don't keep secrets, forgive (ok, very simplified, but works)
I think he also said some stuff about "loving the lord thy god". I expect that got lost in the translation.
__________________
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted the spoons." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
skunk is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:29 AM   #43
PracticalMac
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by skunk View Post
I think he also said some stuff about "loving the lord thy god". I expect that got lost in the translation.
Of course he did, I was merely pointing out the main difference in the NT from the OT, which also said emphasized reverence to God.

And that is with capital G.

(Or Quran, with capital A)
__________________
FireWire 1394 Intelligent network guaranteed data transfer, 1500mA power, Ethernet compatible
Read: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 70% faster then USB2
Write: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 48% faster
PracticalMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6, 2013, 03:44 PM   #44
firestarter
macrumors 603
 
firestarter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Green and pleasant land
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
If it was introduced it would always be trumped by human rights legislation, so treating a woman has having 1/4 of the worth wouldn't be allowed.
Finsbury Park 'Muslim Patrol' harasses women on the streets of North London

Quote:
On another occasion, a woman takes offence to their requests and tells them they are in Great Britain at which point they respond by saying 'they don't respect those who disobey God'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#axzz2K9pppIms
firestarter is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6, 2013, 03:50 PM   #45
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by firestarter View Post
Finsbury Park 'Muslim Patrol' harasses women on the streets of North London
I would have thought it would be taken a bit more seriously than some nutter on the streets of London.

It would be very similar to the situation for Jews.
__________________
Perhaps this is not such a bad idea. Can anyone prove that many politicians aren't the offspring of a jackass? - rdowns
Eraserhead is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 6, 2013, 03:59 PM   #46
firestarter
macrumors 603
 
firestarter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Green and pleasant land
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
I would have thought it would be taken a bit more seriously than some nutter on the streets of London.

It would be very similar to the situation for Jews.
Jews / Muslims, doesn't matter.

'Opt in' extra laws are BS, because they fail to protect the weaker members of society (which the British law does aim to protect).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...ords-told.html

Sharia courts ‘as consensual as rape’, House of Lords told

MUSLIM women in Britain are being forced to “live in fear” because of the spread of unofficial and unregulated sharia courts enforcing Islamic rules, the House of Lords was told.
firestarter is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2015, 11:08 AM   #47
Huntn
Thread Starter
macrumors G3
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Thread revival...

The most interesting thing about Sharia Law is that it is religious based law that is incompatible with a secular society. How would we react if a community of predominantly Muslims tried to institute Sharia law in the US? I'd predict a forceful counter response. It appears to me that we have millions of Muslims in the US who do not hold Sharia law as a high priority in their lives. They would be considered apostates by the likes of ISIS.

An honest question is really how how secular is the US today? Do we not see movements in the US to establish Christianity as the defacto religion? Both can be equally dangerous if the associated religion becomes radicalized, although I'm not making an argument for existing organized radicalized Christians. So far The Christian fundamentalists seem willing to use the ballot box as their tool of choice and indoctrinating as many as they can.

Speaking of ISIS, please refer to this eye opening Atlantic Magazine article: What ISIS really wants. It makes an argument that this movement has mistakenly been described in the West as just power mongers cloaked in religion, when the movement is actually propelled by leaders who want to see religious proficy fulfilled.

Quote:
There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.
Quote:
We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.
The above is just how dangerous they are, if their movements takes on life and is propelled forward. It could be the basis for the next world war. Of note there was a great discussion on PBS this morning about ISIS. The point I walked away with is that they alone can't be defeated on the battlefield without defeating their message and understanding what motivates huge numbers volunteers to join the movement. They are a symptom of failure.

As a Middle East scholar described the Middle East, a failed society, with high levels of poverty, corruption, greed, nepotism, a dead end for average citizens. Is it any surprise that if zealots can stand up and a promise a way to a brighter future, be defeating these failures, that the message will resonate with large numbers of people who have little else to live for?
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.

Last edited by Huntn; Feb 18, 2015 at 12:46 PM.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2015, 12:12 PM   #48
aaronvan
macrumors 6502a
 
aaronvan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: I can see Puget Sound from here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
Destroying ancient artifacts because it threatens their religion is sad.
I got to visit Bamyan a few years ago. It was sad to see those cavernous holes what once held magnificent statues of Buddha. Incidentally, if Afghanistan ever gets it's chit together Bamyan would be a magnificent tourist destination. I've rarely seen such utter natural beauty: raging rivers, magnificent mountain peaks, and lakes so pure turquoise blue I thought I was having an LSD flashback.
__________________
The best podcast in the universe: http://www.noagendashow.com
aaronvan is online now   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2015, 12:40 PM   #49
Huntn
Thread Starter
macrumors G3
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronvan View Post
I got to visit Bamyan a few years ago. It was sad to see those cavernous holes what once held magnificent statues of Buddha. Incidentally, if Afghanistan ever gets it's chit together Bamyan would be a magnificent tourist destination. I've rarely seen such utter natural beauty: raging rivers, magnificent mountain peaks, and lakes so pure turquoise blue I thought I was having an LSD flashback.
Intolerance is a frequent characteristic of fervent religious belief. How much tolerance does God exhibit? Go with God or burn...at least that is a common interpretation.
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 18, 2015, 03:07 PM   #50
Anonymous Freak
macrumors 601
 
Anonymous Freak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cascadia
To me, even if someone is a proponent of Sharia, it is important to separate secular law from religious law.

See Israel. The country is run on secular law, but there are subcultures within Israel (Haredi Judaism, for example,) who adhere strictly to Halakha, which is largely religious law.

Haredi are free to practice their religion how they see fit - not cutting their beards, wearing traditional clothes, not working on the Sabbath, etc. In predominantly-Haredi neighborhoods in Israel, there are signs asking people to adhere to Halakha in the neighborhood, but those do not have legal standing. It is polite to honor the wishes, but it has no secular-government standing.

Likewise, Sharia is a perfectly acceptable set of religious laws for extremely observant Muslims to follow. But it should not be written in to the secular law of the government - at any level. Nor enforced upon those who choose not to follow it.
__________________

20" Aluminum iMac 7,1 (mid-2007, Santa Rosa,) upgraded to 2.6 GHz Penryn, 6 GB RAM, 1 TB HD, 4 TB external HD
PowerBook G4 3,5 (Ti), 1.0 GHz, 768 MB RAM, 60 GB HD
Anonymous Freak is offline   2 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Tags
muslim, qur'an, quran, sharia law

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sharia Law comes to Tennessee yg17 Politics, Religion, Social Issues 31 Feb 5, 2014 03:00 PM
Cookie Law old-school Web Design and Development 3 May 31, 2013 07:52 AM
Two-year warranty (EU law) ipoppy Community Discussion 5 Sep 13, 2012 01:24 PM
Clare's law niuniu Politics, Religion, Social Issues 9 Sep 6, 2012 04:12 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:13 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2015, MacRumors.com, LLC