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Old Feb 7, 2013, 02:21 PM   #151
tbrinkma
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Originally Posted by 2IS View Post
So if I pull out the computer portion from a car I own, does that turn it in to a PC? Still no right? Thats what I thought. Perhaps you don't get the logic behind your own example.
If that computer happened to be capable of running arbitrary software, then yes it very well might be a PC, though not a terribly powerful one.

But it still wouldn't make your *car* one, which is what *you* were claiming.

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Originally Posted by 2IS View Post
"independently" from your iMac? what does that mean? If it was truly a PC replacement you wouldn't have an iMac... I use my iPad independently from my toothbrush, wtf does that prove other than I need both and one is not a replacement for the other?

People who don't call iPad's PC's aren't being general at all, quite the opposite actually.
Wait. I have multiple PCs. Three Macs (of varying age), 1 Windows box (used as a game server), and a laptop I have for work. Which one does that mean isn't 'truly a PC replacement'?

Suffice it to say that your claim doesn't follow from either your logic or his statement.

The iPad is more useful (or at least more easily used) than a traditional desktop in several scenarios. A desktop is more useful (or at least more easily used) in several *different* scenarios. A laptop is more useful (or at least more easily used) in several *other* scenarios.

Just like you wouldn't use a tack hammer where a sledge hammer is more appropriate (or vice versus), doesn't mean that one of them isn't a hammer.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 02:22 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
If that computer happened to be capable of running arbitrary software, then yes it very well might be a PC, though not a terribly powerful one.

But it still wouldn't make your *car* one, which is what *you* were claiming.

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Wait. I have multiple PCs. Three Macs (of varying age), 1 Windows box (used as a game server), and a laptop I have for work. Which one does that mean isn't 'truly a PC replacement'?

Suffice it to say that your claim doesn't follow from either your logic or his statement.

The iPad is more useful (or at least more easily used) than a traditional desktop in several scenarios. A desktop is more useful (or at least more easily used) in several *different* scenarios. A laptop is more useful (or at least more easily used) in several *other* scenarios.

Just like you wouldn't use a tack hammer where a sledge hammer is more appropriate (or vice versus), doesn't mean that one of them isn't a hammer.
Bravo. We are looking at a new PC category here: there are desktop PCs, laptop PCs and tablet PCs.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 02:34 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
If that computer happened to be capable of running arbitrary software, then yes it very well might be a PC, though not a terribly powerful one.

But it still wouldn't make your *car* one, which is what *you* were claiming. [COLOR="#808080"]
I wasn't "claiming" that at all, it was a sarcastic jab at someone else who had a VERY broad term of what constitutes a PC. Try and keep up buddy, if you can't even figure out what you're replying to, best to just keep quiet next time.

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Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
Bravo. We are looking at a new PC category here: there are desktop PCs, laptop PCs and tablet PCs.
There certainly are tablet PC's, it's called a Surface Pro. iPad doesn't fit, even Steve Jobs said so. He could have said "post-windows" "post-laptops" "post-desktops" but he intentionally and deliberately said "post-PC" and he said it multiple times, stressing more than anything else that the iPad is not a PC
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 04:19 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by 2IS View Post
I wasn't "claiming" that at all, it was a sarcastic jab at someone else who had a VERY broad term of what constitutes a PC. Try and keep up buddy, if you can't even figure out what you're replying to, best to just keep quiet next time.

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There certainly are tablet PC's, it's called a Surface Pro. iPad doesn't fit, even Steve Jobs said so. He could have said "post-windows" "post-laptops" "post-desktops" but he intentionally and deliberately said "post-PC" and he said it multiple times, stressing more than anything else that the iPad is not a PC
Despite what SJ said - the iPad is indeed a Personal Computer. SJ was speaking during a time when the term "tablet" meant a very specific thing (and they didn't necessarily have a great connotation). The iPad has revolutionized the tablet PC market.

I still can't see how the iPad doesn't qualify as a personal computer when people are buying them instead of laptops and even desktops at times and they do just about everything a laptop or desktop can do (with the obvious limitations on computing power - which should have no bearing on what makes a PC a PC).

As I said - my iPad has been every bit a PC as my MBP was.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 05:04 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
SJ was speaking during a time when the term "tablet" meant a very specific thing (and they didn't necessarily have a great connotation).
Then why have Schiller, Cook, et al continued to use the term "Post-PC" as late as their third iPad launch, after selling millions of the things?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:29 PM   #156
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Then why have Schiller, Cook, et al continued to use the term "Post-PC" as late as their third iPad launch, after selling millions of the things?
I don't know. Why do they continue to change what the perfect size is? Why did SJ once say 7" tablets were DOA?

Still doesn't negate the fact that iPads are PCs. I'd argue that from Apple's point of view, the disruption of the classic PC market by the iPad has created a new, more popular form of PC.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:47 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
Why did SJ once say 7" tablets were DOA?
Apple has yet to ship a 7" tablet

Quote:
the disruption of the classic PC market by the iPad has created a new, more popular form of PC.
When cars disrupted the truck market as the most popular form of transportation, cars didn't automatically become trucks. They became a new category.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:54 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Apple has yet to ship a 7" tablet



When cars disrupted the truck market as the most popular form of transportation, cars didn't automatically become trucks. They became a new category.
Right, a new category of vehicle. Just like the iPad is part of a more popular category of PCs
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 10:30 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
Right, a new category of vehicle. Just like the iPad is part of a more popular category of PCs
It seems neither of us will sway the other, so I propose I go get some coding in C done on my PC, while you watch some YouTube on your cripple

But not while you're sending tweets mind you, that's more work than its crippled little OS can handle
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 08:09 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
It seems neither of us will sway the other, so I propose I go get some coding in C done on my PC, while you watch some YouTube on your cripple

But not while you're sending tweets mind you, that's more work than its crippled little OS can handle
A "crippled" OS doesn't make or break a PC either - it wasn't terribly long ago a PC couldn't even connect to the internet (because it didn't exist).

Try googling "coding on an iPad" - you'll find plenty of apps and stories of devs who wrote/coded their apps among other things primarily on an iPad.

But sure - go do your thing.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 08:09 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
It seems neither of us will sway the other, so I propose I go get some coding in C done on my PC, while you watch some YouTube on your cripple

But not while you're sending tweets mind you, that's more work than its crippled little OS can handle
Can you compile your code as fast as possibble on your laptop? No. Your workstation compiles code faster as it does everything faster. Does that mean your laptop is not a PC if your workstation is one? No. But your laptop does not do everything your workstation does.

If you owned a windows pc back in 1999 and no virtualization app existed on mac was your mac not a PC? It did not run all the software as your win machine hence it did less. But it was still a PC.

By the same logic your phone or tablet are PC's as well. The term depends on your needs. If a tablet is enough for you, you won't buy a laptop.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 10:41 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by iBug2 View Post
Can you compile your code as fast as possibble on your laptop? No. Your workstation compiles code faster as it does everything faster. Does that mean your laptop is not a PC if your workstation is one? No. But your laptop does not do everything your workstation does.
What has speed got to do with anything?

Quote:
If you owned a windows pc back in 1999 and no virtualization app existed on mac was your mac not a PC? It did not run all the software as your win machine hence it did less. But it was still a PC.
Lacking certain software titles != not being able to have certain software titles. There was no technical reason the Mac couldn't have some of the titles the Windows machine did; simply lack of target market.

Quote:
By the same logic your phone or tablet are PC's as well. The term depends on your needs. If a tablet is enough for you, you won't buy a laptop.
By your logic, the Apple TV is a PC too, if all you need to do is watch Youtube and Netflix. And a classic iPod is a PC too if all you need to do is listen to music.

There are certain things people have come to expect from a PC, with those expectations increasing as PCs have evolved. The iPad is not the culmination of those expectations; rather, it's almost a devolution. It sends the user back to a time of single-tasking; of visible memory limitations; the pre-productivity age; limited connectivity; and general limited utility. It brings back limitations I thought we'd dispensed with in the '90s. As a device living in 2013, it's no PC.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 02:01 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by the8thark View Post
Others can and do actually. Not every device is suited to be a main PC for everyone.
People who can use an iPad as a " work " machine. Don't actually do real work.

Sorry, I can't get along with no multi tasking and performance of a 2002 Desktop PC on a 10 inch screen. You would need a pallet full of iPads to do what I do.

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Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
I replaced my laptop with an iPad and use it independently from my iMac. I still don't understand why people take this so seriously/personally:
True, I don't understand why people take the use of machines personally.

Quote:
The iPad IS a PC in every sense a laptop and desktop are PCs. There are numerous industries being revolutionized because of the iPad (education, medicine, etc.) and in some ways it has MORE uses than a laptop or desktop has.
Well, I don't understand this. It has FAR less Applications than a " PC " running Windows, laptops or desktop, it cannot multi task, it is over 10 years behind desktop and laptops in performance, And its limited in imput devices, and software, I would say it has far less uses than a desktop or laptop PC.

----------

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Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
Despite what SJ said - the iPad is indeed a Personal Computer. SJ was speaking during a time when the term "tablet" meant a very specific thing (and they didn't necessarily have a great connotation). The iPad has revolutionized the tablet PC market.
The iPad brought nothing new, it was just marketing, as all the iDevices are ( I own lots of them by the way ). In many ways, the Ipad is FAR more limited than the old " tablet PCs ", and it is FAR cheaper, iOS devices are budget devices, going for less than 500 dollars, a tablet PC in the day would have easily cost 3,000+

Quote:
I still can't see how the iPad doesn't qualify as a personal computer when people are buying them instead of laptops and even desktops at times and they do just about everything a laptop or desktop can do (with the obvious limitations on computing power - which should have no bearing on what makes a PC a PC).
It is a personal computer of course, but it doesn't fit into the " PC " market I suppose, and the only people replacing there " PCs " with iPads, are general simple use consumers who don't do real work. Yes, it is going into business....very slowly ( 20 million iPads is nothing, when you consider they ship over 80 million PCs, per quarter just to business )

Quote:
As I said - my iPad has been every bit a PC as my MBP wa
If you can do real work on a 2002 Desktop PC with limited software in a Walled Garden with no real imput, my hats are off to you.

Quote:
Then why have Schiller, Cook, et al continued to use the term "Post-PC" as late as their third iPad launch, after selling millions of the things?
There is no such thing as post PC, its jobs marketing garbage. The " personal computer " will never go away, it will just change shape and size.

Quote:
Still doesn't negate the fact that iPads are PCs. I'd argue that from Apple's point of view, the disruption of the classic PC market by the iPad has created a new, more popular form of PC.
Its no more popular as a desktop or laptop PC, and it might be replacing some PCs for basic home users who do nothing but check email and play Angry birds. Its numbers are still well below " PC " sales, so how is it more popular?

Don't get me wrong, the iPad has replaced the desktop PC super basic users, but want to game? do real work? The iPad can't help you. I see it as more than a supplement to the PC than a replacement.

The nice thing about a Windows PC however compared to an iDevice, is that the iDevice will be unsupported and useless in 2-4 years. While as a good PC will chug for a decade, easily. I can do far more useful things on a 10 year old PC running Windows XP, then I can on an Ipad.

Quote:
Try googling "coding on an iPad" - you'll find plenty of apps and stories of devs who wrote/coded their apps among other things primarily on an iPad.
I like real programs, not ****** web apps and garbage on the App store :P


Don't get me wrong, I own an iPhone 4S, and I got a free iPad 4, I use them both a lot ( 4S is a work phone, iPad is something I carry around, I still carry my high end netbook around, almost an ultrabook to get real work done when the iPad cant do it ), but I fail to see how anyone could get real work done on an Ipad.

And I do like my Ipad, however.

If I could even run my simulation software on an iPad, it would either

A: take 3 months to do 1 simulation
B: Melt into the core of the earth.

And don't get me wrong, I love my iPad for what it is, its great for super light gaming, and checking things on the internet, and watching media and consuming it, but when it comes to real work? Falls flat on its face. But thats ok, Apple built it to make a high hardware profit, and to make more profit on the iTunes store, its built for you to consume.

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Old Feb 9, 2013, 07:49 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
What has speed got to do with anything?
Are you kidding me? People who complain about content creation on iPad talk about how clunky it is to do certain things. I can edit a Pages document much faster on my laptop or desktop than I can on my iPad. The keyboard without touch typing is slower and also the cpu is slower. I can edit the damn document yes but I do it much slower. Speed is a very important factor.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Lacking certain software titles != not being able to have certain software titles. There was no technical reason the Mac couldn't have some of the titles the Windows machine did; simply lack of target market.
So what? My argument still stands. You could not do everything you could do on a PC on your mac. It had less than 5% of software windows had. Isn't it a major reason people complain about iPads today? That it lacks the software we have on our desktops? It's not only about the lack of hardware or the type of input. Most software will never exist on an iPad simply because not many people would buy that software for the iPad. Same reason as Mac vs windows back then.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
By your logic, the Apple TV is a PC too, if all you need to do is watch Youtube and Netflix. And a classic iPod is a PC too if all you need to do is listen to music.
Well, I wouldn't go that far, because at some point we'll have to include your car as a PC as well.

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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
There are certain things people have come to expect from a PC, with those expectations increasing as PCs have evolved.
Indeed, such as being small and portable.

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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post

The iPad is not the culmination of those expectations; rather, it's almost a devolution. It sends the user back to a time of single-tasking; of visible memory limitations; the pre-productivity age; limited connectivity; and general limited utility.
Most people single task. Don't think about computer geeks. My mom either uses facebook or checks email or browes web. Never does all of them at the same time. Nor do memory limitation mean anything to her. The memory limitations of the iPad are indeed an issue if you like web browsing of 10+ tabs. So it's a problem for me, not a problem for my mom.

Limited connectivity isn't an issue either. People use wifi to connect to internet, iPad has wifi. End of story. Even I don't need anything other than wifi for my needs and I'm a supergeek. I use ethernet only if I'm gonna play an online game and want my ping to be at the absolute lowest.

And general limited utility is too vague. A desktop has less utility than a laptop. You can't carry it around. A laptop runs apps much slower than a desktop, less utility. It's all a tradeoff of utility. iPad stands on the extremely portable but slow hardware side of things.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
It brings back limitations I thought we'd dispensed with in the '90s. As a device living in 2013, it's no PC.
Limitations for whom? Again, my new laptop is slower than my desktop which I bought 5 years ago. I thought we got rid of these speed limitations 5 years ago...

You are one of those people who think that the rest of the world uses the computer the same way you do. And it's not about your job or your hobbies. It's about your attitude. I'm a computer geek as well. I own a Mac Pro, a rMBP and an iPad. On each of them I do different things. I don't compile code on my laptop because Mac Pro does it faster. I don't play games on my laptop because Mac Pro has a faster GPU etc. And I don't carry my laptop around much because iPad is much much lighter and the stuff I do outside of my home, I can do 99% of them on my iPad with no limitations whatsoever. Only if I'm going to type a lot, then I carry my laptop around because typing isn't fast enough on iPad. Limitations depend on the task. A huge majority of computer users don't do anything other than checking mail and using Facebook/twitter and browsing web. And the iPad does those things as good as any computer. So iPad is enough of a PC for most. Hence it's cannibalising actual PC sales.

I said that a phone or an iPod would also count as a computer, but I don't see those ever replacing traditional PC's. iPads or tablets in general are already replacing PC's. Another super computer geeky friend of mine, who bought himself a super desktop just last year, is using his Samsung tablet 99.9% of the time nowadays, even at home he says he's using the tablet and not the PC. And he has like 300 apps on his tablet, a lot more than he has on his PC.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 08:00 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
People who can use an iPad as a " work " machine. Don't actually do real work.
I suppose medical professionals or pilots are not doing real work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Sorry, I can't get along with no multi tasking and performance of a 2002 Desktop PC on a 10 inch screen. You would need a pallet full of iPads to do what I do.[COLOR="#808080"]
Neither can I. And people like us represent less than 1% of all computer users.

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
If you can do real work on a 2002 Desktop PC with limited software in a Walled Garden with no real imput, my hats are off to you.
My father is still using a G4 tower he bought in 2002 for his graphic design work because he cannot run Freehand on his newer macs. And he has not been complaining.



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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Don't get me wrong, the iPad has replaced the desktop PC super basic users, but want to game? do real work? The iPad can't help you. I see it as more than a supplement to the PC than a replacement.
Don't get me wrong. The laptop has replaced the desktop PC. But you want to game the highest end titles? Do 3D rendering for a hollywood project? Sorry the laptop can't help you. I see it as more than a supplement to the desktop than a replacement.




Quote:
Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
And don't get me wrong, I love my iPad for what it is, its great for super light gaming, and checking things on the internet, and watching media and consuming it, but when it comes to real work? Falls flat on its face. But thats ok, Apple built it to make a high hardware profit, and to make more profit on the iTunes store, its built for you to consume.
Real work for you! It's built for consumption yes, and that's a good thing. Why should anyone pay for a laptop which has unnecessary hardware for web browsing and checking email? Are people this ignorant that they don't realise that almost everyone else is unaware of what a CPU or RAM is yet have been using computers forever? The times when computers were a "work-related" device have been long before. Maybe before 80's. And with the dawn of internet, computers definitely became consumption devices. And it doesn't really make much sense to pay 2000$ for consuming some website or tweet. It's a waste of money and waste of silicon.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 09:12 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
People who can use an iPad as a " work " machine. Don't actually do real work.

Sorry, I can't get along with no multi tasking and performance of a 2002 Desktop PC on a 10 inch screen. You would need a pallet full of iPads to do what I do.
That's just you. Many other people do real work on iPads. And the iPad blows the 5 flavours CRT iMac I had in 2003. By a long shot. And a little piece of information you. The iPad can multitask now.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 09:29 AM   #167
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That's just you. Many other people do real work on iPads. And the iPad blows the 5 flavours CRT iMac I had in 2003. By a long shot. And a little piece of information you. The iPad can multitask now.
Can I have 6-7 programs running at the same time, intensive programs, and can they be displayed on 3 monitors?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 09:52 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by iBug2 View Post
I suppose medical professionals or pilots are not doing real work..
I bet they have a Desktop PC or a Mac to base everything off of, and the iPad is just a supplement. The doctors office I go seems to be full of Core 2 Dell optiplexes


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Neither can I. And people like us represent less than 1% of all computer users.
I would say a little more than 1% :P

Quote:
My father is still using a G4 tower he bought in 2002 for his graphic design work because he cannot run Freehand on his newer macs. And he has not been complaining.
Hats off to him, I wish I could do that. Be cheaper, than buying these 20,000 dollar workstations, though my employer pays for them, hahaha! Sucks to be them.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong. The laptop has replaced the desktop PC. But you want to game the highest end titles? Do 3D rendering for a hollywood project? Sorry the laptop can't help you. I see it as more than a supplement to the desktop than a replacement.
Now, for my job a laptop is only good on the go. But playing the best titles on a laptop?

You say that.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/alienware-M18x-r2/pd.aspx

lol, I have one for work on the go, though it isn't used for gaming.

Quote:
Real work for you! It's built for consumption yes, and that's a good thing. Why should anyone pay for a laptop which has unnecessary hardware for web browsing and checking email?
Because what if they ever want to go beyond that? They get stuck.

Quote:
Are people this ignorant that they don't realise that almost everyone else is unaware of what a CPU or RAM is yet have been using computers forever?
I think more people than you think are aware of their own hardware.

Quote:
The times when computers were a "work-related" device have been long before. Maybe before 80's. And with the dawn of internet, computers definitely became consumption devices. And it doesn't really make much sense to pay 2000$ for consuming some website or tweet. It's a waste of money and waste of silicon.
Point taken.

But the real question is, why are people tweeting? Its bad for you

----------

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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
What has speed got to do with anything?
Lots actually, I don't want to wait around for programs to launch and do their job, weather it be on a Deskop, Laptop, Console, or Tablet.

Quote:
Lacking certain software titles != not being able to have certain software titles. There was no technical reason the Mac couldn't have some of the titles the Windows machine did; simply lack of target market.
There was actually, redoing programs for PowerPC systems would really eat into profits for smaller developers, so it wasn't worth it.

Quote:
By your logic, the Apple TV is a PC too, if all you need to do is watch Youtube and Netflix. And a classic iPod is a PC too if all you need to do is listen to music.
Some people do that, but these same people also watch MTV, so who cares lol
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 10:12 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
I bet they have a Desktop PC or a Mac to base everything off of, and the iPad is just a supplement. The doctors office I go seems to be full of Core 2 Dell optiplexes
Ok. So you base your judgement on your observations only.


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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
I would say a little more than 1% :P
I actually was being optimistic. It might be even less than 1%.

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Hats off to him, I wish I could do that. Be cheaper, than buying these 20,000 dollar workstations, though my employer pays for them, hahaha! Sucks to be them.
A 20k workstation wouldn't speed things up for my father. Freehand runs quite fast on a 1 GHz computer already. There's not much waiting around really. Same as Safari running basically as fast on my iPad as on my Mac Pro. Web pages aren't really loading any faster on my Mac Pro, nor is scrolling any faster.

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Now, for my job a laptop is only good on the go. But playing the best titles on a laptop?

You say that.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/alienware-M18x-r2/pd.aspx

lol, I have one for work on the go, though it isn't used for gaming.
Those are almost as heavy as a 21" iMac though. They are closer to desktops than they are to portables.

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Because what if they ever want to go beyond that? They get stuck.
No. They'd buy a laptop. And since most of them won't ever go beyond that, it's no problem.


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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
I think more people than you think are aware of their own hardware.
Or less.



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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
But the real question is, why are people tweeting? Its bad for you[COLOR="#808080"]
That's not really relevant. Maybe everything with a screen is bad for you.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 11:21 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by iBug2 View Post
Are you kidding me? People who complain about content creation on iPad talk about how clunky it is to do certain things. I can edit a Pages document much faster on my laptop or desktop than I can on my iPad. The keyboard without touch typing is slower and also the cpu is slower. I can edit the damn document yes but I do it much slower. Speed is a very important factor.
Okay, now I'm confused. That sounds like an argument against the iPad being a PC? All I'm saying is if my desktop can compile my code a few microseconds faster than my laptop, how does that make it less of a PC?

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So what? My argument still stands. You could not do everything you could do on a PC on your mac. It had less than 5% of software windows had. Isn't it a major reason people complain about iPads today? That it lacks the software we have on our desktops?
Yes, but the difference is it's not POSSIBLE to write some of the software we have on the desktop for the iPad, either due to sandboxing, or lack of hardware, or limitations of touch input, etc.

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Most software will never exist on an iPad simply because not many people would buy that software for the iPad.
So let's assume for a minute that the iPad is a PC, and there are pro-level apps that can be ported to the iPad with full functionality. Why exactly wouldn't anyone buy that software for the iPad? Maybe it's because the iPad isn't a PC, and pro-level apps can't be ported to the iPad.

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Well, I wouldn't go that far, because at some point we'll have to include your car as a PC as well.
Well how far would you go? You said it depends on what the user needs.

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Indeed, such as being small and portable.
Last I checked, laptops were small and portable. I slip my rMBP into my backpack every day with ease. "Small" and "portable" are relative terms. Heck, my dad has a CRT TV from the '80s in his basement that was considered "portable" because it had a handle.

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Most people single task.
I'm not so sure. Many people multitask without even realize they're doing it. My mother typically starts a session at the computer by checking her email. But then she'll start opening links in those emails, which open in Firefox. College friends I know who aren't CS majors will be writing a report, and they'll have a browser and a Word document open side by side, and maybe even a rubric beside that. Heck, some people just like to have a Youtube music playlist running in the background while they check Facebook. You can't make that generalization.

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Nor do memory limitation mean anything to her. The memory limitations of the iPad are indeed an issue if you like web browsing of 10+ tabs. So it's a problem for me, not a problem for my mom.
My mom's iPhone always has all 8 tabs open. Not because she does 8 things at once, but because she'll once again open a link in email and it will open in Safari, except she never remembers how to manage windows. So it can be an issue for a novice user.

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Limited connectivity isn't an issue either. People use wifi to connect to internet, iPad has wifi. End of story.
Wifi is not the end all be all of connectivity. Want to connect a printer that's a couple years old and doesn't have Airprint? Sorry, out of luck. Maybe want to connect to a TV to show your friends some pictures? Not unless you have a $99 box or a $39 cable. Even if you want to just pop in an SD card to expand the storage because you have 17GBs of stuff and only bought a 16GB device because you had no idea what a gigabyte is, you can't do it. Or is carrying around all your stuff too "geeky" for most people?

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iPad stands on the extremely portable but slow hardware side of things.
Not just slow, downright crippled because of the OS it runs and said OS's limitations. Both a desktop and a laptop run the same full-featured, decidedly non-crippled OS, thus giving them more utility. (Yes OS X and Windows are both moving to become more and more crippled, but that's a topic for another time.) It's not just the hardware (though the iPad is crippled in both respects).

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A huge majority of computer users don't do anything other than checking mail and using Facebook/twitter and browsing web. And the iPad does those things as good as any computer.
Almost as good. Even if you don't use 150 tabs, the moment you try to use a s***ty mobile site (some of these don't even have search functions!), or play a Flash video, or read alt-text, or view a site with a pop-up ad that keeps repositioning itself when you scroll and zoom to try and tap the "x" button, or use a drop-down menu that you only have to hover over to activate (and clicking takes you someplace you don't want to go (see bestbuy.com)), the experience comes crashing down.

Quote:
Another super computer geeky friend of mine, who bought himself a super desktop just last year, is using his Samsung tablet 99.9% of the time nowadays, even at home he says he's using the tablet and not the PC.
Frankly I would question his geekiness. Does he code? Play intensive games? Use command-line tools? Because all the geeks I know who have tablets still much prefer real PCs. Heck, my roommate who owns a Nexus 7 hates it because "it's too limited." His mobile device of choice is a Nokia N810, which despite the smaller screen is much more PC-like than any modern tablet.

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Originally Posted by the8thark View Post
And a little piece of information you. The iPad can multitask now.
Fast app switching (which isn't even that much faster) != multitasking.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 01:31 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Okay, now I'm confused. That sounds like an argument against the iPad being a PC? All I'm saying is if my desktop can compile my code a few microseconds faster than my laptop, how does that make it less of a PC?
No it's not. A 12 core Mac Pro compiles code 2-3 times faster than a rMBP. So if you have a code that compiles in 1 hour, your Mac Pro saves you 2 hours every time you do a compile. So by the light of this new information are you declassifying your rMBP as "Not a PC"? And there's not much you can do during those 2 hours on your rMBP either because code compilation uses all cores to the fullest, so the computer is pretty unresponsive at other tasks.

Speed matters a lot. And iPad does things slower than a laptop. But if laptops are still called PC's, iPad being slower than a laptop shouldn't really matter in the "PC or not a PC" debate.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Yes, but the difference is it's not POSSIBLE to write some of the software we have on the desktop for the iPad, either due to sandboxing, or lack of hardware, or limitations of touch input, etc.
OS X still does not have decent VDPAU, that is GPU accelerated video playback, which has been standard for years on Win or Linux boxes, and that's only due to the limitations and sandboxing of OS X. So OS X isn't a PC OS anymore just because it's more restrictive and you can't write all code you want for it?


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
So let's assume for a minute that the iPad is a PC, and there are pro-level apps that can be ported to the iPad with full functionality. Why exactly wouldn't anyone buy that software for the iPad? Maybe it's because the iPad isn't a PC, and pro-level apps can't be ported to the iPad.
They can be ported. After all the iPad runs OS X and has the same hardware as 5 year old laptops. Those laptops were running those software, slow but still they could run them. And they are actually porting a lot of pro software for the iPad. But I wouldn't expect all of them to be ported. Hell, they didn't even port all Pro level software to OS X yet. No 3D Studio Max still!


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post

Well how far would you go? You said it depends on what the user needs.
My definition is easy. Just look at what someone does when he/she buys a computer. If they can do the same things on an iPad, then it's a PC for those people. If not, then it's not. And I'm claiming that for the majority of PC users, and iPad does everything they do on their PC's.

So an iPad isn't a PC for me, I can't compile Latex on an iPad for example and that is something I do daily, but it is for my mom.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Last I checked, laptops were small and portable. I slip my rMBP into my backpack every day with ease. "Small" and "portable" are relative terms. Heck, my dad has a CRT TV from the '80s in his basement that was considered "portable" because it had a handle.
Laptops are small and portable, iPads are even smaller and more portable. I carry my iPad all day long without notice, and whenever I put my laptop in my backpack, the weight certainly makes itself felt.

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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
I'm not so sure. Many people multitask without even realize they're doing it. My mother typically starts a session at the computer by checking her email. But then she'll start opening links in those emails, which open in Firefox. College friends I know who aren't CS majors will be writing a report, and they'll have a browser and a Word document open side by side, and maybe even a rubric beside that. Heck, some people just like to have a Youtube music playlist running in the background while they check Facebook. You can't make that generalization.
That kind of multitasking is already possible on iOS though. You can check email while the webpage loads etc. The screen estate can't be reorganised according to your needs, yes. But if you own a 11" MacBook Air, which is, according to you a PC with almost the same amount of screen estate as an iPad, try editing a word document while having a webpage open on the right. It's almost impossible.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
My mom's iPhone always has all 8 tabs open. Not because she does 8 things at once, but because she'll once again open a link in email and it will open in Safari, except she never remembers how to manage windows. So it can be an issue for a novice user.
Having 8 tabs open doesn't cause issues on my iPhone or iPad. It only causes an issue if there are hundreds of pictures on the page, which fills up the small memory immediately. Otherwise, I remember having opened 20+ tabs on my iPad with no lag whatsoever.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Wifi is not the end all be all of connectivity. Want to connect a printer that's a couple years old and doesn't have Airprint? Sorry, out of luck. Maybe want to connect to a TV to show your friends some pictures? Not unless you have a $99 box or a $39 cable. Even if you want to just pop in an SD card to expand the storage because you have 17GBs of stuff and only bought a 16GB device because you had no idea what a gigabyte is, you can't do it. Or is carrying around all your stuff too "geeky" for most people?
Ok I give you the printer argument. Not being able to connect to older printers sucks. But again, my mom never printed anything in her life I think. For me it's an issue though.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Not just slow, downright crippled because of the OS it runs and said OS's limitations. Both a desktop and a laptop run the same full-featured, decidedly non-crippled OS, thus giving them more utility. (Yes OS X and Windows are both moving to become more and more crippled, but that's a topic for another time.) It's not just the hardware (though the iPad is crippled in both respects).
OS X has been more crippled compared to Win and Linux on many fronts. Not all desktop OS's are equally open or equally crippled. So iOS being more crippled compared to OS X (Which I don't even know if true) shouldn't matter.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Almost as good. Even if you don't use 150 tabs, the moment you try to use a s***ty mobile site (some of these don't even have search functions!), or play a Flash video, or read alt-text, or view a site with a pop-up ad that keeps repositioning itself when you scroll and zoom to try and tap the "x" button, or use a drop-down menu that you only have to hover over to activate (and clicking takes you someplace you don't want to go (see bestbuy.com)), the experience comes crashing down.
Yes, certain things can go wrong. But now let's look at how browsing on an iPad is actually better than browsing on a laptop. While you are standing, while you are sitting without a desk, while you are walking even. I do all my morning web browsing on the bus these days, and doing that using a laptop crippled me so much, I hated it. With the iPad, it's a joy to get rid of all the browsing needs without breaking a sweat while standing on a bus.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Frankly I would question his geekiness. Does he code? Play intensive games? Use command-line tools? Because all the geeks I know who have tablets still much prefer real PCs. Heck, my roommate who owns a Nexus 7 hates it because "it's too limited." His mobile device of choice is a Nokia N810, which despite the smaller screen is much more PC-like than any modern tablet.
He was compiling his Linux kernel while he was in 9th grade. Geek enough for you? He works as the code designer for a big company, and handles some IT stuff as well. He can code in 4-5 different languages with ease the last time I checked. And yes he uses his Samsung tablet for everything, including watching movies these days.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 03:19 PM   #172
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See now. If Apple had come out with a new Mac Pro that percentage would be 20.002 %
Yes! The Mac Mini Pro!
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 10:11 PM   #173
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But if laptops are still called PC's, iPad being slower than a laptop shouldn't really matter in the "PC or not a PC" debate.
I don't recall saying it was. In fact, it was you who said that. In fact in fact, I'm the one who said "what has speed got to do with anything?" Yes, it's a bit slow, but I'm more concerned about overall capability. And the iPad's lack of fast processor and lack of memory and lack of storage and lack of desktop operating system all make it less capable. In terms of "what's a PC," it doesn't matter whether a task takes an hour or ten hours-- it matters whether a given device can even do it at all.

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So OS X isn't a PC OS anymore just because it's more restrictive and you can't write all code you want for it?
Actually, it's moving in that direction, sadly. I dread the day when the Mac is nothing more than an iDevice with a physical keyboard.

But bear in mind there are numerous things already discussed which separate iPads from PCs. When Apple removes the terminal, forces the MAS, removes the Finder, cripples connectivity options, and requires all apps to be full screen to ensure single-tasking, then we'll talk about whether or not the Mac is a PC.

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They can be ported.
Not true. Even if the iPad had all the power in the world, some apps simply can't be used or can't be used well with touch. Copy and paste, dragging a time stamp bar, and anything else that requires precision is already bad enough.

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My definition is easy. Just look at what someone does when he/she buys a computer. If they can do the same things on an iPad, then it's a PC for those people.
Okay, so for the purposes of statistics such as the one this article was written about, how should the iPad be classified? Should they take a sample of iPad owners and ask them if they can do all their daily tasks on it, and then count only that percentage of iPads as PCs?

A definition cannot vary by person, else it's useless. If I (and a bunch of other people) suddenly decide to use the word "microwave" in place of what you would call a "television," how would anybody know what anybody else was talking about? It's like those people who use "literally" when they actually mean "figuratively," though less obvious.

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Laptops are small and portable, iPads are even smaller and more portable. I carry my iPad all day long without notice, and whenever I put my laptop in my backpack, the weight certainly makes itself felt.
And I slip my rMBP into my bag where my iPad used to go and while yes, I feel the extra weight, it isn't a concern to me. Thus demonstrating my point that "small" and "portable" are relative terms.

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That kind of multitasking is already possible on iOS though. You can check email while the webpage loads etc.
That's the most basic multitasking, which really doesn't cut it. More than once I've wanted to do something simple, like take a phone number that for whatever reason I couldn't tap nor copy (likely because the c&p implementation sucks) and call it (on the iPhone obviously, but the principle stands). On a computer, I could just look at the two side by side and enter what I needed to. On the phone/pad, I get to keep switching apps since my short term memory is terrible. Something I wouldn't need to do on a MBA. Besides, the 11" MBA has MORE pixels in the horizontal direction than the 13" MBP, which is Apple's most popular Mac, and quite nearly as many in the vertical direction. It's really not that bad for basic multitasking.

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Having 8 tabs open doesn't cause issues on my iPhone or iPad. It only causes an issue if there are hundreds of pictures on the page, which fills up the small memory immediately. Otherwise, I remember having opened 20+ tabs on my iPad with no lag whatsoever.
I'm going to guess you have newer devices. On my iP5, 8 tabs is no big deal. On my iPad 1, 2 tabs is a big deal. On my mom's iP4, 8 tabs is a huge deal. Nice of Apple to include sufficient RAM from the start eh?

Quote:
OS X has been more crippled compared to Win and Linux on many fronts. Not all desktop OS's are equally open or equally crippled. So iOS being more crippled compared to OS X (Which I don't even know if true) shouldn't matter.
Ohhh but it does. It's the difference between being able to do almost anything and nothing (what Apple wants you to do).

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While you are standing, while you are sitting without a desk, while you are walking even.
There is indeed something to be said for form factor. But form factor doesn't have to preclude utility, as Microsoft showed early in the millennium with the launch of the tablet PC. Admittedly tablet PCs were terrible to use, but that's okay-- as it turns out, a tablet doesn't have to be a PC. A tablet can just be a tablet. We can have a category of PCs separate from a category of tablets. Why do you insist they must be one and the same?

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yes he uses his Samsung tablet for everything
Actually I can sort of believe that-- there are more development apps for Android than iOS (AIDE comes to mind) and they have Active Directory apps, LogMeIn, RDP, Citrix... pretty much anything you could want.

Does that mean I'd rather use a tablet instead of a workstation with dual monitors like I use in my IT job? Hell no. But at least it's possible. I don't know what it proves, but it's difficult, unnecessary and possible.

(Actually not for me. Our phone system and card key system do not have Android/iOS equivalents AFAIK.)
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 10:18 PM   #174
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Can I have 6-7 programs running at the same time, intensive programs, and can they be displayed on 3 monitors?
You can have 6-7 programs running at the same time on 3 monitors on your computer. The iPad can multitask like this but on one screen as you know. And people can do serious work on this.

You have said you can't do serious work on the iPad. We get that. But others can and do every day. And to them, the iPad is an integral part of their job/work.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 12:57 AM   #175
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Ok. So you base your judgement on your observations only.
Of course! But I doubt anyone could do 100% of their work on a system with a 10 inch screen and no keyboard. Some of my doctors reports that I get are over 15 pages long, about nothing lol.

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I actually was being optimistic. It might be even less than 1%.
I would say its way more than 1%, most people I talk to, still are interested in how much RAM they have, or how big their hard drive, despite Apples claims, the world is not going to the garbage cloud anytime soon.

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A 20k workstation wouldn't speed things up for my father. Freehand runs quite fast on a 1 GHz computer already. There's not much waiting around really. Same as Safari running basically as fast on my iPad as on my Mac Pro. Web pages aren't really loading any faster on my Mac Pro, nor is scrolling any faster.
Bad example, an iPad cant even display 100% of webpages properly, cant even do flash

Im sure you work is great, but it clearly does not require any real hardware, going to an iPad from my workstation would turn a 3 hour simulation into a 2 month nuclear meltdown for me

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Those are almost as heavy as a 21" iMac though. They are closer to desktops than they are to portables.
They still aren't heavy, hit the gym man.

I dont understand people who complain that any laptop is heavy, mine is very heavy as you can see, and I still don't feel it on my shoulder. Maybe to many people are whimps?

A 10 pound laptop does not bother me, as long as it does its job. A new iMac would actually do a worse job than my laptop lol, due to its inferior GPU, RAM, and HDD/SSD.

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No. They'd buy a laptop. And since most of them won't ever go beyond that, it's no problem.
They might go beyond that, and when the old people die, they WILL go beyond that, give it 20 years. When the old people die off. ( good riddance
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That's not really relevant. Maybe everything with a screen is bad for you.
)

That is a joke, people who tweet get cancer and die, which was also a joke.
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