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Old Feb 7, 2013, 10:33 PM   #76
pesos
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Still picking up a Pro on Saturday to replace my RT and MBP, but I'm looking forward to the Helix in March:

http://www.dailytech.com/Lenovo+Heli...ticle29566.htm
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 08:23 AM   #77
spinedoc77
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"The RT Is the glarging screw up"- I've heard this statement made quite a few times and I completely disagree.

If anything, the RT is the true 1:1 competitor to the iPad.

I really see little value in all the x86 apps when they were never meant to run on a tablet. I am not complaining about all the ancient softare that I cannot run on my iPad.

-The RT has the battery life.
- It has true multi-tasking ability with the snap feature to run 2 apps at one time
- It has the unqiue 16:9 aspect ratio.
- It is sized appropriately- as thin as the iPad and about the same weight
- It has the live tiles. Makes IOS look ancient
-The desktop interface is perfect for file management (something that is not possible on the ipad).
-It has expandable storage
-It has the best tablet/hybrid keyboard (iPad cannot compete here)
-It has MS OFFICE for free!

Stop with the crap about how the RT is the screwed up device. Those that have the RT and have used it would strongly disagree.

I on the other hand see less value in the Surface Pro. I would run out right now and get a Macbook Air before I would get the pro. On the other hand, I think the Surface RT is a great companion to my personal macbook/pc, etc.

*My 2 cents and this is from someone who has bought every version of the iPad released to date. I actuall now used both my Surface RT and my iPad mini (for reading)
It IS a glaring screw up, a stillborn baby. It MIGHT be saved if they drop,the price drastically, but even then I doubt it. The problem is that MS isn't going to out-ipad the ipad, even with office. MS App Store is improving, but were not seeing developers flock to,it yet, if ever. The Achilles heel of RT is the Atom powered FULL windows tablets, same price and in many cases cheaper, run legacy apps, better performance, etc just gives no reason to buy a RT tablet. Lets not forget the lack of digitizer on the RT.

Basically the Atom tablets have every single item on your bullet list except free office. Did you get free office 10 or free office 365? For my personal use I would gladly trade office for a digitizer though.

Keep in mind this is MY personal,use, I'm not denigrating your purchase at all but I just don't see RT going anywhere.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 02:49 PM   #78
zhenya
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Got some hands on time with the Surface Pro today at Best Buy.

Like the Surface RT, this is one sexy device and I really would like to own one. Microsoft is really showing everyone else short of Apple how to do design. OEM's better take notice.

It was placed right next to the RT, and at first glance it's impossible to tell which one is which. Yes, it is definitely thicker and heavier, but it is still a svelte device. The type keyboard is definitely nicer to work with, but way too thick and heavy in my opinion, as it just flaps loosely against the screen - and is heavy and fragile feeling enough that it just feels poorly executed. I would probably go with the touch keyboard despite its own limitations.

I would love to be able to replace my work laptop with this, but unfortunately it's stuck in a no-mans land of being slightly too far ahead of its time (see battery life and size/weight) and not quite enough to meet full replacement specs - too little RAM and too little storage.

Even still, all of those negatives could probably be ignored if Microsoft had launched this thing with a really slick docking station that charged, connected all your peripherals, and allowed you to drive dual monitors. Without that, it's just an accessory, and having a full second Windows computer as an accessory to my primary one is just a pain that I try to avoid at all costs. I don't need the headache of keeping both in sync for slight gains in portability.

Not to mention the very real issues that Windows still has with scaling UI elements - and the way those interactions will drive you mad if you try to regularly dock this to a modern monitor.

So close Microsoft!
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 11:00 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris2k5 View Post
Lol the Surface Pro is a fail. It is $300-$400 too expensive compared to tablets.
Eh, it is quite a lot cheaper than an iPad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris2k5 View Post
Why would anyone buy a Surface Pro for the same price as a MBA?!?!
Because the Microsoft Surface Pro is the equivalent of an MBA with an iPad thrown in for free (allbeit one with a somewhat short battery life for a tablet). The Surface Pro is a full-blown PC with better performance than my ageing AMD Quad Core desktop. Comparing it to an iPad is stupid. It's equivalent to an MBA with a slightly different form factor.

----------

[QUOTE=Irishman;16781154]For the price, you're solidly in ultrabook territory, especially after adding the upgraded keyboard. No reason to spend the same money for a compromised device.[COLOR="#808080"]

Since the Surface Pro is an ultrabook in a tablet form factor, that should not come as a surprise to anyone. The closest Apple competitor to the Surface Pro is the MBA, and they are quite similar, even in the amount of space they consume as shipped.

The difference is that the Surface Pro also can be used as a tablet, which the MBA can not. As such, the Surface Pro is significantly cheaper than the MBA, at about 1xiPad cheaper, and it is also significantly cheaper than the iPad, at about 1xMBA cheaper.

You say the Surface Pro is compromised. Could you elaborate on that? Compromised how? What can you do with your MBA that you can not do with the Surface Pro?
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 11:02 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by terjeber View Post
Eh, it is quite a lot cheaper than an iPad.
Wait a second, here. The Surface Pro at $899 is alot cheap than an iPad? the 128gb iPad is $899! How is the Pro cheaper??

Quote:
Originally Posted by terjeber View Post
Because the Microsoft Surface Pro is the equivalent of an MBA with an iPad thrown in for free (allbeit one with a somewhat short battery life for a tablet).
Walt Mossberg's review unit got under 4 hours of use, where the Microsoft Surface RT he reviewed got 7 hrs, and the iPad 4 got 10, all using the same tests.

When I say that the Surface Pro is a compromised device, I mean it's neither the best of a tablet (that's still the iPad), nor is it the best of an Ultrabook (everyone keeps trotting out the MBA here, but I'm not sure if it's the best in that class). It is compromised in the sense that, to make gains in performance for desktop apps and graphics, they lose battery life and gain weight, as well as adding fan noise.

Does that make sense to you?

Last edited by Irishman; Feb 10, 2013 at 11:41 AM.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 11:05 AM   #81
zhenya
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So I got the go-ahead to purchase one of these to see what we can do with it at work. Unfortunately, MS has botched this launch perhaps worse than the RT one. Can't order it online, (or place a backorder) and my local Staples got ONE 64GB model in stock and Best Buy got ZERO.

So yeah, it's 'sold out'.

We also would have gladly paid an extra $100-200 for a 256GB model.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 12:00 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by terjeber View Post
Eh, it is quite a lot cheaper than an iPad.
$899 for iPad 128GB
$899 for Surface Pro 128GB

LOL how is it cheaper?

Last edited by maflynn; Feb 10, 2013 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Removed name calling
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 12:03 PM   #83
sentinelsx
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Originally Posted by chris2k5 View Post
$899 for iPad 128GB
$899 for Surface Pro 128GB

LOL how is it cheaper?
I guess they are thinking surface RT. Pro is definitely not cheaper at all.

However, if presented with either a pro or iPad, i would take the pro IF it had even a 6-7 hour battery life.

Too bad i have to wait. The new chrome OS tablets coming up might be good though.

Last edited by maflynn; Feb 10, 2013 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Removed name calling in quote
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 12:21 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris2k5 View Post
$899 for iPad 128GB
$899 for Surface Pro 128GB

LOL how is it cheaper?
Its cheap for what you get, with an iPad, you get a giant iPhone, with a Surface Pro, you get a full fledged laptop, and a tablet.

Last edited by maflynn; Feb 10, 2013 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Removed name calling in quote
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:34 PM   #85
DeathChill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris2k5 View Post
$899 for iPad 128GB
$899 for Surface Pro 128GB

LOL how is it cheaper?
The 128 GB iPad is $799 and the 128 GB Surface Pro is $999. How did you get both of these wrong?

Last edited by DeathChill; Feb 10, 2013 at 06:23 PM. Reason: Removed name calling in quote
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:19 PM   #86
chris2k5
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Really how is it not? Same apps, same OS, no multiple programs on screen at the same time.

Not that I would know or anything...its not like I am typing this from an iPad....oh wait...i am!
Same apps?! The developers optimize the apps differently. Ignorance. OS isn't exactly the same. There are plenty of differences and the hardware is difference. Ignorance. #youvebeenflushed
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:25 PM   #87
G51989
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Same apps?! The developers optimize the apps differently. Ignorance. OS isn't exactly the same. There are plenty of differences and the hardware is difference. Ignorance. #youvebeenflushed
Of course there are some differences.

But either way you look at it, the OS does not differ at all on any base level, nor do the apps, nor does the fact change that real multitasking is impossible.

#flushing your ipad
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:50 PM   #88
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Of course there are some differences.

But either way you look at it, the OS does not differ at all on any base level, nor do the apps, nor does the fact change that real multitasking is impossible.

#flushing your ipad
So you admit you were wrong - you first said there was no difference and now you say there are.

Real original with the hash tag. And I don't own an iPad. Bye.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:01 PM   #89
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So you admit you were wrong - you first said there was no difference and now you say there are.

Real original with the hash tag. And I don't own an iPad. Bye.
iPad is a mobile OS running mobile components, Surface is a real OS running serious hardware. Thats the main point isnt it? Not your petty points that its apps are slightly different from the iPhone.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:15 PM   #90
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iPad is a mobile OS running mobile components, Surface is a real OS running serious hardware. Thats the main point isnt it? Not your petty points that its apps are slightly different from the iPhone.
Read the thread before replying.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:28 PM   #91
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Read the thread before replying.
Ive been reading it since it started, you know, when I was the 5th post...?
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 06:18 PM   #92
Irishman
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The 128 GB iPad is $799 and the 128 GB Surface Pro is $999. How did you get both of these wrong?.
He's not the only one, I did it too! LOL

I'm a dumbass!

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Its cheap for what you get, with an iPad, you get a giant iPhone, with a Surface Pro, you get a full fledged laptop, and a tablet.
That "giant iPhone" you mentioned is the market leader in tablets, greatly outpacing its rivals in terms of sales AND quality of tablet experience.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 06:52 AM   #93
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Wait a second, here. The Surface Pro at $899 is alot cheap than an iPad? the 128gb iPad is $899! How is the Pro cheaper??



Walt Mossberg's review unit got under 4 hours of use, where the Microsoft Surface RT he reviewed got 7 hrs, and the iPad 4 got 10, all using the same tests.

When I say that the Surface Pro is a compromised device, I mean it's neither the best of a tablet (that's still the iPad), nor is it the best of an Ultrabook (everyone keeps trotting out the MBA here, but I'm not sure if it's the best in that class). It is compromised in the sense that, to make gains in performance for desktop apps and graphics, they lose battery life and gain weight, as well as adding fan noise.

Does that make sense to you?
I'd rather go with Anandtech who was getting 6 hours of battery life. Or how about I do you one better, I've got a surface Pro right here that is getting 6 hours as well, granted it's mainly web browsing and light video streaming but I am getting about 6 hours, certainly a FAR cry from the 3-4 hours my 11" MacBook air got. Also what's with the fan noise? There isn't any fan noise unless you totally push the Pro as in playing a game, and even then you have to put it to your ear to really hear it, this is a non issue.

You are correct in that the Pro is compromised as a tablet, I don't really buy that it's compromised as an ultrabook though, but I'll play along and give that some minor points because of the keyboard (which is an advantage in some cases). But having an ultrabook AND a tablet is compromised as well, for some of us that is MUCH more of a compromise. Having to carry around 2 devices, having to sync between them, not being able to in many cases (iOS versus windows), ultrabook battery life, ipad not being able to function as a real computer, weight, size, power cords to lug around, etc etc I could keep going on about how much more compromised carrying both of those devices around would be for me.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
He's not the only one, I did it too! LOL

I'm a dumbass!

----------



That "giant iPhone" you mentioned is the market leader in tablets, greatly outpacing its rivals in terms of sales AND quality of tablet experience.
yeah but it's STILL a giant iphone. I don't mean that in a negative way at all, I've loved my ipad since it first came out, and obviously they are immensely popular. But it's still not anywhere close to a real computer. But that's ok because it's not meant to be compared to the surface Pro. The surface pro will never ever reach even a fraction of the ipads popularity, but then again neither did any ultrabook including the MacBook air. Now if you want to compare apples to apples you should look at the windows tablets with the atom CPU's, they compare head to head in every single category with the ipad, with the addition of running a full Windows OS and in some cases having a digitizer/stylus setup.

Of course this will be moot next holiday season as Haswell CPU's come around and we do indeed get surface Pro performance in ipad packages with long battery life. Right now is the time of early adopters, such as myself, and I don't think anyone is arguing that the surface pro is anything more than a niche product, but a damn incredible niche product.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:50 PM   #94
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Here is the big picture some of you are missing on the whole RT vs Pro debate and some of the other remarks people have made.

The whole point of Surface Pro is the ability to give "Enterprise" a tablet like laptop that can work with Enterprise Applications and be controlled by an Active Directory without any special or additional programming needed.

There are companies who I know personally who have been waiting for Surface Pro so there sales man can take their tablet and have the client signed their contracts that work with a Windows Environment. No special integration required like it maybe needed for an Android or iPad.

You are all thinking way too much on the consumer level. Honestly for the consumer there are much better options.

I work with both Mac and Windows so for myself I want a Macbook Air built like a Surface Pro where I can run Windows 8 on it in Bootcamp.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 07:17 PM   #95
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Over 3x as fast.


Not too surprising considering what's inside. Still no battery benchmarks out yet.


Anyone planning on getting one? Seems like an intriguing concept--will probably wait for 2nd gen, but very tempting.
My new iMac gets 9312 Geekbench (32 bit only).

For perspective.
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Old Mar 26, 2013, 08:44 PM   #96
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Actually the surface is much faster

Those tests on the surface were performed without 64 bit activation. I tried it and this is the best I could get:



That's right a whopping 7319 out of this tablet; that's a whole lot faster given its just half a pound heavier
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Old Mar 27, 2013, 05:54 AM   #97
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Those tests on the surface were performed without 64 bit activation. I tried it and this is the best I could get:

Image

That's right a whopping 7319 out of this tablet; that's a whole lot faster given its just half a pound heavier
Yeah but are most people going to use that power? Especially in light of the massive trade offs. The thickness and weight, while not much on paper, are significant IMO when truly held in hand, especially next to an Atom tablet. Of course the battery life is the Achilles heel.

But about the power, I don't think the average user needs it. I have an Atom tablet and I get along just fine using it as a windows computer, Office, PhotoShop, assembling PDFs in Adobe, etc etc. I'm sure there is a specialized need market who will find the pro viable even with its multiple weakness, but I don't think its the average consumer.
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Old Mar 27, 2013, 04:41 PM   #98
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Speaking of geekbench, their recent blog entry is wrong on the Blackberry Z10 scores.

https://twitter.com/jfpoole/status/315225402400460800

The 1300-1400 scores are from OMAP4470 Z10's and the 1700-1900 scores are from Qualcomm S4 Z10's. The Z10 has not been rooted (yet) so there is no end-user overclocking the Z10 and messing with the benchmarks.

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekb...E2%9C%93&q=z10

Qualcomm S4 is 20-30% faster than a Cortex A9 running the same clock frequency --- and that matches up nicely the geekbench scores for the two Z10 variants.

Apple A6 is faster than Qualcomm S4 running the same clock frequency --- precisely by how much, neither Apple nor Qualcomm are saying much. So we have a 1800ish geekbench on a 1.5 GHz Qualcomm S4 Z10 vs. a 1600 geekbench on a 1.3 GHz Apple A6 or a 1770 geekbench on a 1.4 GHz A6X.

Last edited by samab; Mar 27, 2013 at 05:06 PM.
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