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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:58 AM   #176
iBug2
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Actually, it's moving in that direction, sadly. I dread the day when the Mac is nothing more than an iDevice with a physical keyboard.

But bear in mind there are numerous things already discussed which separate iPads from PCs. When Apple removes the terminal, forces the MAS, removes the Finder, cripples connectivity options, and requires all apps to be full screen to ensure single-tasking, then we'll talk about whether or not the Mac is a PC.
So you are saying that it's the OS that defines a PC? Ok. Then we have some common ground.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Not true. Even if the iPad had all the power in the world, some apps simply can't be used or can't be used well with touch. Copy and paste, dragging a time stamp bar, and anything else that requires precision is already bad enough.
You asked whether they can be ported. Not whether they could be used well with touch. All apps can be used, although clunky, with touch.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Okay, so for the purposes of statistics such as the one this article was written about, how should the iPad be classified? Should they take a sample of iPad owners and ask them if they can do all their daily tasks on it, and then count only that percentage of iPads as PCs?

A definition cannot vary by person, else it's useless. If I (and a bunch of other people) suddenly decide to use the word "microwave" in place of what you would call a "television," how would anybody know what anybody else was talking about? It's like those people who use "literally" when they actually mean "figuratively," though less obvious.
If we are talking about an absolute definition for what a PC is, yes my definition is useless. But the usual definition of PC, which is:

"A personal computer (PC) is any general-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and original sales price make it useful for individuals, and which is intended to be operated directly by an end-user with no intervening computer operator."

already counts the iPad as a PC or the iPhone for that matter. The definition doesn't really say anything about the screen size, or the capabilities of the OS.

But since you don't accept the terms of that definition, and basically everything you opposed were "personal" (incapabilities of the OS for you, lack of memory for you, etc) I also made the definition personal. A device which can't be classified as a PC for you, can be classified as a PC for others.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
And I slip my rMBP into my bag where my iPad used to go and while yes, I feel the extra weight, it isn't a concern to me. Thus demonstrating my point that "small" and "portable" are relative terms.
Sure they are. But nobody would say that the iPad feels heavier than a laptop. : )

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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
That's the most basic multitasking, which really doesn't cut it. More than once I've wanted to do something simple, like take a phone number that for whatever reason I couldn't tap nor copy (likely because the c&p implementation sucks) and call it (on the iPhone obviously, but the principle stands). On a computer, I could just look at the two side by side and enter what I needed to. On the phone/pad, I get to keep switching apps since my short term memory is terrible. Something I wouldn't need to do on a MBA. Besides, the 11" MBA has MORE pixels in the horizontal direction than the 13" MBP, which is Apple's most popular Mac, and quite nearly as many in the vertical direction. It's really not that bad for basic multitasking.
Well, I don't really work that well with small screens. I have a 30" on my Mac Pro and even the 15" rMBP is small for me for doing side by side work. On my laptop I usually have one app covering the whole estate and use spaces to switch to other apps. So yes, it's all relative.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
I'm going to guess you have newer devices. On my iP5, 8 tabs is no big deal. On my iPad 1, 2 tabs is a big deal. On my mom's iP4, 8 tabs is a huge deal. Nice of Apple to include sufficient RAM from the start eh?
Well, Apple does include enough RAM for most users. They can't simply put in 4 GB RAM. And with my browsing style, that would barely be cutting it.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Ohhh but it does. It's the difference between being able to do almost anything and nothing (what Apple wants you to do).
Again, relative. The users I've been talking about are already doing almost everything on their iPads. I mean just for one second imagine that your job doesn't require you to use a computer, and you are not a hobbyist either. What is there for you to do on a computer really other than communicating via basic things such as email/twitter and obviously browsing the web and playing games?

Here's an interesting example. My closest friend, who hasn't really used his computer for anything other than games when we were kids, is basically a computer-less person today. He doesn't even check his emails every day, and doesn't really play games either. He doesn't have a facebook or twitter account and rarely browses the web. So on average he was using the computer for less than half an hour a day. He then received an iPad for free because someone gave it to his father as a present and his father is even more computer illiterate so he gave it to him. It's been 2 months and now he has more apps on his iPad than I do on mine. Using the app store, he bought at least 50 games, most of them free, and is doing actual work related stuff on his iPad which he never did on his laptop. He said he didn't want to carry his laptop around due to weight but the iPad is with him all the time. Every time we meet he's asking me what kind of apps there are for doing this or doing that, and I'm mostly clueless because I don't do content creation on my iPad. But he's the reason why these devices are selling like crazy. They are more useful to these people. And he certainly does not represent a minority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
There is indeed something to be said for form factor. But form factor doesn't have to preclude utility, as Microsoft showed early in the millennium with the launch of the tablet PC. Admittedly tablet PCs were terrible to use, but that's okay-- as it turns out, a tablet doesn't have to be a PC. A tablet can just be a tablet. We can have a category of PCs separate from a category of tablets. Why do you insist they must be one and the same?
Tablet PC's were terrible because their OS and their apps weren't designed for touch. They were simply PC's where you replaced mouse clicks with finger clicks. Apple/Android did a much better job than that, wrote a whole new OS, came up with a bunch of new touch API's and let the developers make apps which were actually designed for touch. If a tablet PC is a PC, I don't see why a tablet today isn't one. A tablet PC was less useful than a tablet is today, on all fronts.


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Actually I can sort of believe that-- there are more development apps for Android than iOS (AIDE comes to mind) and they have Active Directory apps, LogMeIn, RDP, Citrix... pretty much anything you could want.
I don't think he does his coding and compiling on his tablet. At his work, he has some 8 core Dell workstation to work with. But as his personal computer he uses his tablet.
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Last edited by iBug2; Feb 10, 2013 at 02:11 AM.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:02 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by the8thark View Post
You can have 6-7 programs running at the same time on 3 monitors on your computer. The iPad can multitask like this but on one screen as you know.
.
No it cannot, stop lying. The iPad is not capable of running 6-7 full programs at the same time, I would know, I have one. And no, it cannot run 3 monitors.

Quote:
You have said you can't do serious work on the iPad. We get that. But others can and do every day. And to them, the iPad is an integral part of their job/work.
I create and run engineering simulations for a vast variety of situations and products, an iPad is literally not capable, so I don't consider it a viable option for real work. If ARM versions of my software even existed, an iPad would be unable to run them, It would overheat and shut down.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by the8thark View Post
You have said you can't do serious work on the iPad. We get that. But others can and do every day. And to them, the iPad is an integral part of their job/work.
I would be willing to bet the people who do " real work " on an iPad have a base Wintel or MAC in their office.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 06:05 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by CShort View Post
The iPad doesn't compare to a fully featured desktop operating system as much as a gaming console/device which also has web, email, etc. does.
Many many people buy tablet to replace their PC!
I replaced my laptop with iPad (but still have iMac) and am happy with it.
On the other hand, i still have not come across or heard of anyone who have bought a console to replace their PC! Never!!

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr McKay View Post
A certain audience who only perform simple tasks could do with just a tablet yes, but for a lot of people something like an iPad or Android tablet couldn't replace a Computer, it's a consumption device meant to compliment a PC. Who honestly would say "Pass me the PC" if they wanted you to hand them a tablet?
How many people use PC just for simple tasks like browsing the web, cheeking emails, and other little things that are very well handled by tablets?

I would say the majority.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:17 PM   #179
lifeinhd
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Originally Posted by iBug2 View Post
So you are saying that it's the OS that defines a PC? Ok. Then we have some common ground.
It's mostly the OS. A computer is both software and hardware, though the capabilities of the OS do play a big role.

Quote:
You asked whether they can be ported. Not whether they could be used well with touch. All apps can be used, although clunky, with touch.
Sorry, I thought usability was implied you can't exactly have a port of Photoshop with hundreds of toolbar options on a 10" screen and still have icons large enough to touch. Heck I know some people who have a second monitor dedicated to toolbars.

Not to mention some apps with requirements beyond what sandboxing allows cannot be ported. Let's see a Terminal port that isn't a Cydia exclusive (Apple's arbitrary App Store rejections don't exactly help catapult the iPad into "PC" territory).

Quote:
"A personal computer (PC) is any general-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and original sales price make it useful for individuals, and which is intended to be operated directly by an end-user with no intervening computer operator."
"General purpose" is vague.

Hardware being equal, let's start with the premise that you can do anything on an OS X/Windows machine. (Not true but bear with me.) Let's say those are the most unrestricted OSes in the world. Then a level of restrictedness below that we have Windows RT, which is mobile like iOS/Android but still has some interoperability with Windows 8. Below that there's Android and iOS, both designed for phones and tablets only. Then you've got modern game consoles, which can browse the web and play music and videos and games of course and that's about it. And we can keep going, to the Apple TV, to the iPod Classic, all the way down to multi-function computers such as the one in your car, but with obviously less "general purpose" than your Mac. So even with that definition, where does "general purpose" stop and "limited purpose" begin? I say it stops at the top, with full desktop OSes (again hardware being equal). Anything else is limited purpose.

Quote:
basically everything you opposed were "personal" (incapabilities of the OS for you, lack of memory for you, etc)
There's simply no way I'm the only one in the world to run up against these limitations. Even stupider things.

I was once teaching a client how to use her new iPad to check mail. I showed her the Compose window, and her first question was "how do I change fonts and colors?" "Er, sorry, you can't..." is not something you want to have to tell a paying client.

Quote:
I also made the definition personal. A device which can't be classified as a PC for you, can be classified as a PC for others.
Unfortunately that's not the way the world works. Maybe I feel gorillas are close enough to humans that they ought to be classified as homo sapiens as well, but I can't just decide that's how I want to classify them and expect the world to contort to my beliefs.

Quote:
even the 15" rMBP is small for me for doing side by side work.
Obviously OT, but have you tried turning the resolution up to 1680x1050 or even 1920x1200? I keep mine at the latter as that's the only way it's bearable for me (I really wanted a 17"!).

Quote:
I mean just for one second imagine that your job doesn't require you to use a computer, and you are not a hobbyist either. What is there for you to do on a computer really other than communicating via basic things such as email/twitter and obviously browsing the web and playing games?
If that's all I had to do, and I didn't know anything about Flash incompatibility or what "USB" means (ignorance truly is bliss), then I wouldn't buy a PC. I'd consider a tablet instead.

Quote:
anecdote
What does that have to do with the iPad being a PC? Just because he uses it more than his actual PC? Just because he uses it for things he doesn't use his PC for? I use my pants more than my PC for things I don't use my PC for, that doesn't make them PCs as well....

Quote:
If a tablet PC is a PC, I don't see why a tablet today isn't one. A tablet PC was less useful than a tablet is today, on all fronts.
As I've said many times, a tablet today is crippled compared to the tablets of yesteryear. Old tablet PCs may have been clunkier than tablets of today, sure, but less capable, not a chance. One of the main reasons why the modern tablet has caught on is because it eliminates that clunkiness and is therefore easy to use, not that it's more capable.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 09:22 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
No it cannot, stop lying. The iPad is not capable of running 6-7 full programs at the same time, I would know, I have one. And no, it cannot run 3 monitors.
I did say one screen. And well you are right about full programs at once. It has limited multitasking though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
I create and run engineering simulations for a vast variety of situations and products, an iPad is literally not capable, so I don't consider it a viable option for real work. If ARM versions of my software even existed, an iPad would be unable to run them, It would overheat and shut down.
Again this is you not being able to do real work on an iPad. Others can and do real work on the iPad.

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
I would be willing to bet the people who do " real work " on an iPad have a base Wintel or MAC in their office.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I never said the iPad was the only PC in every workplace. Multiple machines for multiple tasks.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 10:21 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skika View Post
iPad is a computer that is personal. PC stands for "personal computer".

iPad is a computer, in many ways much more than any laptop or desktop.

Deal with it.
By that logic, the iPad is a very low end PC with Pentium 3~4 performances.
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