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Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:47 PM   #76
samiwas
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Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
We don't need National Gun laws ...we just need men in America to start acting like men.
In what way?
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 10:25 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Please elaborate.

Have you read the Fortune article?
Dude, I'm pretty sure I'm the one who posted it.

From the article:

Quote:
...On June 1, Dodson used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers, and gave these to Fernandez, who reimbursed him and gave him $700 for his efforts. Two days later, according to case records, Dodson—who would later testify that in his previous experience, "if even one [gun] got away from us, nobody went home until we found it"—left on a scheduled vacation without interdicting the guns...

The guns were never recovered, the case was later closed, and Fernandez was never charged. By any definition, it was gun walking of the most egregious sort: a government agent using taxpayer money to deliver guns to bad guys and then failing to intercept them.
Now, keep in mind that Dodson was the "whistleblower" to the whole affair and that the larger problems in prosecuting gun walking was to blame. But, re-read the article and you'll see a department in the middle of a schism about procedure, which then collapsed into serious failures.

And, also keep in mind that those who were operating the gun walking in Mexico turned out to be FBI informants.


Cock-up.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:17 PM   #78
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Cock-up.
I'm looking to the wrong person to discern shades of gray.

My bad.

I'm sorry to intrude into your black-and-white world.

Please carry on as normal.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:32 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I'm looking to the wrong person to discern shades of gray.

My bad.

I'm sorry to intrude into your black-and-white world.

Please carry on as normal.
It's interesting that you say this. You really don't think that the Fast and Furious program, it's schism obvious, the lack of prosecutions and evidence, the loss of some weapons, and the failure to actually deal with gun walking—not to mention the collateral death of Agent Terry, to be a mess that anyone should call a cock-up?

I believe in shadings and the importance of context, but I can also discern that the dudes running the ATF botched an investigation that should have let the ATF stem the tide of American weapons into Mexico, leading to prosecutions of people responsible and following the flow of weapons (and money in the other direction) through the cartel network.

How would you describe Fast and Furious, using the full palette of subtle shades?
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:43 PM   #80
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How would you describe Fast and Furious, using the full palette of subtle shades?
I'll answer with a question.

How would you describe Benghazi?
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 11:45 PM   #81
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I'll answer with a question.

How would you describe Benghazi?
The unfortunate reality of having a small diplomatic outpost vulnerable to the acts of foreign fighters who wanted to seek revenge on the United States (as well as attack an ambassador they saw as working against Islam by pushing for Democratic elections) for the use of Predator drones in Yemen.

Using a demonstration for a YouTube video as cover, the men took the opportunity to enact a plan they'd been brewing for weeks and hit the facility in two waves.

US assets were unable to respond immediately and so the local security forces, including Libyans, fought a pitched battle against a group armed with machine guns and RPGs. Ambassador Stevens died of smoke inhalation when the attackers set fire to a building.

Pass your litmus test?
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 07:53 AM   #82
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Pass your litmus test?
Yet if you tried to convince most righties of that, they'd likely wave off your explanation and say, "Those guys totally screwed up. It was a total cock up".
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 11:39 AM   #83
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The unfortunate reality of having a small diplomatic outpost vulnerable to the acts of foreign fighters who wanted to seek revenge on the United States (as well as attack an ambassador they saw as working against Islam by pushing for Democratic elections) for the use of Predator drones in Yemen.

Using a demonstration for a YouTube video as cover, the men took the opportunity to enact a plan they'd been brewing for weeks and hit the facility in two waves.

US assets were unable to respond immediately and so the local security forces, including Libyans, fought a pitched battle against a group armed with machine guns and RPGs. Ambassador Stevens died of smoke inhalation when the attackers set fire to a building.

Pass your litmus test?
This much I will say, when our LLVI teams got into any type of trouble, sitrep or not, I always recommended to my CO that we should greenlight the JTACS and provide close air support and kill everything anywhere near our guys. Right behind that is exfil planning.

Because Hillary Clinton is an imbecile, Ambassador Stevens could not be saved. The first half of the battle did not last long enough to do much of anything. That situation needed to be considered and planned for well in advance of the attack.

However the 2nd half of the battle is a different story. Panetta has admitted no military assests were in motion, but they had drones watching the whole thing. That does not make any sense. Panetta also said there was no contact with Hillary Clinton during the entire attack, and Obama was absent and provided no presidential guidance at all. That's all direct from Leon Panetta.

Benghazi is a disgrace, and it all festers at the top.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 06:10 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Yet if you tried to convince most righties of that, they'd likely wave off your explanation and say, "Those guys totally screwed up. It was a total cock up".
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Because Hillary Clinton is an imbecile ...

Benghazi is a disgrace, and it all festers at the top.
See? Just like that.

Obviously Hillary Clinton is not an imbecile, but in the black and white world of political debate, there is no room for nuance. Everybody is an imbecile. Every failure, a total cock up.

That Hulugu, is why I was hoping you wouldn't fall into that trap. I know you're more thoughtful than that.

And yes ... I know that I sometimes do to.

Here's to more thoughtfulness ... on all our parts.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:13 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
See? Just like that.

Obviously Hillary Clinton is not an imbecile, but in the black and white world of political debate, there is no room for nuance. Everybody is an imbecile. Every failure, a total cock up.

That Hulugu, is why I was hoping you wouldn't fall into that trap. I know you're more thoughtful than that.

And yes ... I know that I sometimes do to.

Here's to more thoughtfulness ... on all our parts.
BTW, in following this thread, I never saw your answer to hulugu's question:
Quote:
How would you describe Fast and Furious, using the full palette of subtle shades?
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:20 PM   #86
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BTW, in following this thread, I never saw your answer to hulugu's question:
That answer wasn't important to the point that I was trying to make ... and completely unnecessary (IMO) to delve into.

Besides, it's Valentine's day. I still need to make my wife a filet mignon and open our gifts.

Who knows? I might just get lucky tonight.

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Old Feb 14, 2013, 11:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
See? Just like that.

Obviously Hillary Clinton is not an imbecile, but in the black and white world of political debate, there is no room for nuance. Everybody is an imbecile. Every failure, a total cock up.

That Hulugu, is why I was hoping you wouldn't fall into that trap. I know you're more thoughtful than that.

And yes ... I know that I sometimes do to.

Here's to more thoughtfulness ... on all our parts.
Spare me your condescension. First, you're trying to conflate two completely different events that only share the GOP's belief that harping on about it will harm the president.

Second, results matter. With Fast and Furious, they lost some weapons and failed to make any serious arrests, screwing up an investigation because of personnel problems and incompetence that could have stemmed the sale of weapons into Mexico. If you think "cock-up" is the wrong term, please explain why you think so.

As for Benghazi, when a US ambassador is killed along with members of his security team, we should understand what went wrong and if poor decisions were made. And, I can't say that they weren't, even if I think the GOP's arguments are ill-founded and obtuse—the best example being Mitt Romney's waltz into a rake during the debates.

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This much I will say, when our LLVI teams got into any type of trouble, sitrep or not, I always recommended to my CO that we should greenlight the JTACS and provide close air support and kill everything anywhere near our guys. Right behind that is exfil planning.
Keep in mind that your LLVI teams aren't on a long-term diplomatic mission, so the rules and notional security are different. As for exfiltration, there was a plan, it failed because it relied in Libyan security forces and the ambassador was already dead.

Quote:
...Because Hillary Clinton is an imbecile, Ambassador Stevens could not be saved. The first half of the battle did not last long enough to do much of anything. That situation needed to be considered and planned for well in advance of the attack.
I wouldn't call Clinton an imbecile, but State didn't plan for a military mission to defend the facility and that was a huge mistake.

Quote:
...However the 2nd half of the battle is a different story. Panetta has admitted no military assests were in motion, but they had drones watching the whole thing.
Actually, the drone wasn't there until later, so it missed part of the battle and there was confusion about where people were. And, that drone wasn't armed, but was re-tasked, so it couldn't help much.

Quote:
...That does not make any sense. Panetta also said there was no contact with Hillary Clinton during the entire attack, and Obama was absent and provided no presidential guidance at all. That's all direct from Leon Panetta.
Actually, that's incorrect. Panetta said during his testimony that he spoke to Obama and the President told him to do anything necessary to protect our people. So, the White House stepped back to let State and DoD do their respective jobs, but a team from Rota, Spain was too far away as were F-16s in Italy. The lack of available forces in North Africa was the mistake, but that couldn't have been significantly changed by State, even if State had insisted forcefully to do so.

Quote:
...Benghazi is a disgrace, and it all festers at the top.
Benghazi was a mess, but we've had facilities attacked before, but only Benghazi seems to capture the imagination, which begs the question, why?
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 11:51 PM   #88
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Speaking of why we need national gun laws

I'm driving home from work today and what do I hear on the radio but a story about how various gun manufacturers and gun dealers are going to refuse to do business within NY, especially with the police. The "conservative" gun dealers that they interviewed were remarkably hostile to the police. I'm so old (fashioned), I guess I keep expecting "conservatives" to least be neutral, if not generally positive towards the police. You know, "law and order" and all that.

https://origin-www.marketplace.org/t...t-police-hands
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 01:21 AM   #89
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Keep in mind that your LLVI teams aren't on a long-term diplomatic mission, so the rules and notional security are different. As for exfiltration, there was a plan, it failed because it relied in Libyan security forces and the ambassador was already dead.
That was stupid. Libya was/is a nation that just came out of civil war. Security is everything, if you don't have it, every other aspect of the mission is at risk. State and DOD know this. Libya is a war zone with dozens of hostile entities. The mission did not match ground conditions.


Quote:
I wouldn't call Clinton an imbecile, but State didn't plan for a military mission to defend the facility and that was a huge mistake.
She is an imbecile because they banked on Libyan security and failed to have a contingency plan.


Quote:
Actually, the drone wasn't there until later, so it missed part of the battle and there was confusion about where people were. And, that drone wasn't armed, but was re-tasked, so it couldn't help much.
There were two drones that provided eyes on live intel. Two hours after the first attack began there was a drone, and a second drone was dispatched four hours later. In that time, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that operators on the ground not only illuminated targets but were requesting air support, because that's the only thing that can respond quickly and repel overwhelming force.

Quote:
Actually, that's incorrect. Panetta said during his testimony that he spoke to Obama and the President told him to do anything necessary to protect our people. So, the White House stepped back to let State and DoD do their respective jobs, but a team from Rota, Spain was too far away as were F-16s in Italy. The lack of available forces in North Africa was the mistake, but that couldn't have been significantly changed by State, even if State had insisted forcefully to do so.
Panetta said he had one meeting with Obama that lasted 30 minutes and did not hear from the White House after. Do I believe that? Absolutely not.

Panetta also said he never spoke to that buffoon Hillary Clinton at all. Not a word? The secretary of state made no inquiries into an attack on an American Ambassador? Don't buy it.

Quote:
Benghazi was a mess, but we've had facilities attacked before, but only Benghazi seems to capture the imagination, which begs the question, why?
I think of it from a soldier's perspective. A core principle is "I will never leave a fallen comrade." I believe that down to my soul and I would rather face UCMJ than abandon my guys.

By all accounts Rear Adm. Gaouette and General Carter Ham had a response prepared and were prevented from executing by the White House.

That sickens me like you can't imagine.

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Old Feb 15, 2013, 06:53 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
I'm driving home from work today and what do I hear on the radio but a story about how various gun manufacturers and gun dealers are going to refuse to do business within NY, especially with the police. The "conservative" gun dealers that they interviewed were remarkably hostile to the police. I'm so old (fashioned), I guess I keep expecting "conservatives" to least be neutral, if not generally positive towards the police. You know, "law and order" and all that.

https://origin-www.marketplace.org/t...t-police-hands
What's wrong with what? If the government is legislating that they can't sell their weapons to civilians, why can't the companies just say we're not going to sell them to your police either then?
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 10:08 AM   #91
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Spare me your condescension.
That's certainly not condescending.

Pot, meet kettle.

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Old Feb 15, 2013, 02:36 PM   #92
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What's wrong with what? If the government is legislating that they can't sell their weapons to civilians, why can't the companies just say we're not going to sell them to your police either then?
If a company doesn't want to sell their weapons to police departments, I'm sure another company can swoop in and steal their lunch.

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That was stupid. Libya was/is a nation that just came out of civil war. Security is everything, if you don't have it, every other aspect of the mission is at risk. State and DOD know this. Libya is a war zone with dozens of hostile entities. The mission did not match ground conditions.
To a point, I agree.

Quote:
...There were two drones that provided eyes on live intel. Two hours after the first attack began there was a drone, and a second drone was dispatched four hours later. In that time, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that operators on the ground not only illuminated targets but were requesting air support, because that's the only thing that can respond quickly and repel overwhelming force.
I've read that they were two drones, but Panetta, I believe only spoke about the one. I'm not sure, but assume that one was re-tasked and then when it ran low on fuel another one took over the observation, that's two drones but really only one set of sensors.

Quote:
...I think of it from a soldier's perspective. A core principle is "I will never leave a fallen comrade." I believe that down to my soul and I would rather face UCMJ than abandon my guys.
I understand your feelings, but keep in mind that Woods and Doherty were killed during the second attack at a second location believed to be safe and under guard by a State Department team and Libyan militia. And, though air support may have allowed US forces to attack the ambush party before it formed, there's no guarantee of this. And, keep in mind that the entire party was exfiltrated from the country nine hours after the first attack. So, no one was left behind.

Quote:
...By all accounts Rear Adm. Gaouette and General Carter Ham had a response prepared and were prevented from executing by the White House.

That sickens me like you can't imagine.
You should link to those accounts, because I've yet to see a credible source that this is true.

I believe that Adm. Gaouette was with the USS Stennis strike group, which was in transit from its home port of Bremerton, Wash. to Guam, where it was part of the Operation Valiant Shield.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 05:42 AM   #93
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If a company doesn't want to sell their weapons to police departments, I'm sure another company can swoop in and steal their lunch.



To a point, I agree.



I've read that they were two drones, but Panetta, I believe only spoke about the one. I'm not sure, but assume that one was re-tasked and then when it ran low on fuel another one took over the observation, that's two drones but really only one set of sensors.



I understand your feelings, but keep in mind that Woods and Doherty were killed during the second attack at a second location believed to be safe and under guard by a State Department team and Libyan militia. And, though air support may have allowed US forces to attack the ambush party before it formed, there's no guarantee of this. And, keep in mind that the entire party was exfiltrated from the country nine hours after the first attack. So, no one was left behind.



You should link to those accounts, because I've yet to see a credible source that this is true.

I believe that Adm. Gaouette was with the USS Stennis strike group, which was in transit from its home port of Bremerton, Wash. to Guam, where it was part of the Operation Valiant Shield.

You'll probably not find a link to any AFRICOM plans, they'd be classified. GEN Ham is not known to be a blabbermouth.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:20 PM   #94
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You'll probably not find a link to any AFRICOM plans, they'd be classified. GEN Ham is not known to be a blabbermouth.

Yeah, I know how classified information works, which is why I'd be surprised if anyone who had access to such information was posting about such plans on MacRumors.
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 04:25 AM   #95
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Yeah, I know how classified information works, which is why I'd be surprised if anyone who had access to such information was posting about such plans on MacRumors.
He is an MI guy so he probably has more access than any of us
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 04:17 PM   #96
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He is an MI guy so he probably has more access than any of us
Probably, but this presents a serious problem for discussion. I cannot confirm his claim—at least without suing for access or getting another clearance—and thus it remains a kind of hearsay.

If he did the planning, I'd feel differently, but he's saying effectively that since he's in-the-know and Adm. Ham doesn't talk, that plans were made to rescue the facility in Benghazi and they were scrapped. But, he can't confirm this one way or another.

That's a pretty big claim to make.
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 04:24 PM   #97
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Probably, but this presents a serious problem for discussion. I cannot confirm his claim—at least without suing for access or getting another clearance—and thus it remains a kind of hearsay.

If he did the planning, I'd feel differently, but he's saying effectively that since he's in-the-know and Adm. Ham doesn't talk, that plans were made to rescue the facility in Benghazi and they were scrapped. But, he can't confirm this one way or another.

That's a pretty big claim to make.
He can't say, there is a difference. Thats the problem inherent in classified information.

When you know something in the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth you can't say anything.

Judging from actions around here at that time I tend to believe him but it's nothing more than a gut reaction.
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 04:35 PM   #98
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He can't say, there is a difference. Thats the problem inherent in classified information.

When you know something in the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth you can't say anything.
Sure. Which is why some people leak information anonymously and reporters take great pains to protect them.

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...Judging from actions around here at that time I tend to believe him but it's nothing more than a gut reaction.
I do to, that's why I'm harping on it. If there was a plan and it was humped, I want to know why.
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Old Feb 19, 2013, 04:57 PM   #99
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Sure. Which is why some people leak information anonymously and reporters take great pains to protect them.



I do to, that's why I'm harping on it. If there was a plan and it was humped, I want to know why.
This you'll never know
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Old Mar 22, 2013, 04:40 PM   #100
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Our government has lost its frack'n way:

Gun Dealers Protected by Congress.

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If anything, Congress seems headed in the wrong direction. This week, with little attention or discussion, lawmakers passed a half-dozen gun provisions, most of them designed to please the National Rifle Association by handcuffing the agency that enforces the nation's gun laws. The impact is to make it more likely that guns will get into the hands of criminals.

The worst of these "riders," tacked onto a must-pass spending bill to keep the federal government open until this fall, ensures that no federally licensed gun dealer ever has to conduct an inventory — a basic practice in just about any other industry. If a particular dealer's business model involves selling guns off the books to people who can't pass a background check, it's awfully convenient to be able to tell federal inspectors that no one had any idea guns were lost or stolen until inspectors showed up and asked to see the records.
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