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Old Feb 11, 2013, 10:18 PM   #101
Solomani
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Originally Posted by Dualie11 View Post
Before you get excited, I also play plenty of Mac games on my iMac, including Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Dragon Age (and DA II), Combat Mission, Call of Duty, and Nancy Drew (just kidding!).
Do you also have The Hardy Boys Game of the Year Edition?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:46 PM   #102
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I think developers use the systems and tools they know.
Could Crysis on OSX happen now that there are shipping Macs that can play the game at reasonable framerates and reasonable settings?
Like many other PC games, you can play Crysis on your mac already through wrapping. It runs perfectly well on high/max settings with few to no bugs. I could run it on High settings in 2009. I'm quite sure in 2013 it would work just as well.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:25 AM   #103
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I think developers use the systems and tools they know.

That is the reason that Crysis only runs on DirectX, not OpenGL. I don't believe that Crytek was trying to exclude Mac and Linux gamers by using DirectX. They were just using the tools they knew.
DirectX is the main GFX language for 360 and Windows. OpenGL is the main GFX language on OS X. The PS3 has OpenGL but nobody uses the implementation as it is pretty broken and slow. This means when developing you use the best tools for your target audience. In this case developing in DirectX then making a PS3 renderer is the best path to take in terms of development time, performance etc

OpenGL is not a major player in AAA games as it is not supported/the best choice on any of the major gaming platforms like the 360. It's not to say you can't get games to run using OpenGL, Feral have an entire library of ported titles to prove it is possible however if you are targeting consoles and Windows DirectX as the main GFX API makes the most sense.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:50 AM   #104
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Like many other PC games, you can play Crysis on your mac already through wrapping. It runs perfectly well on high/max settings with few to no bugs. I could run it on High settings in 2009. I'm quite sure in 2013 it would work just as well.
Although true, to me, native must be the goal.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 01:37 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by edddeduck View Post
DirectX is the main GFX language for 360 and Windows. OpenGL is the main GFX language on OS X. The PS3 has OpenGL but nobody uses the implementation as it is pretty broken and slow. This means when developing you use the best tools for your target audience. In this case developing in DirectX then making a PS3 renderer is the best path to take in terms of development time, performance etc

OpenGL is not a major player in AAA games as it is not supported/the best choice on any of the major gaming platforms like the 360. It's not to say you can't get games to run using OpenGL, Feral have an entire library of ported titles to prove it is possible however if you are targeting consoles and Windows DirectX as the main GFX API makes the most sense.
So, what you're saying is: Apple should go "all in" on the gaming market, creating a standard GFX language for iOS, OSX plus Windows with tools/libraries available for other console platforms. Thus making it easy to have a "write once" development path that targets all desktop, console and mobile platforms.

Great idea. Now, the minor matter of getting Apple to sign up...
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:33 PM   #106
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So, what you're saying is: Apple should go "all in" on the gaming market, creating a standard GFX language for iOS, OSX plus Windows with tools/libraries available for other console platforms. Thus making it easy to have a "write once" development path that targets all desktop, console and mobile platforms.
I always wondered about the possibility of the following scenario: Apple approaches Microsoft and strikes a deal to get the source code for DirectX so that DirectX can be written natively for MacOSX.

Apple has tons of resources (technologies and patents they can choose to share, license, etc) and cash in order to nudge Microsoft.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:31 PM   #107
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So, what you're saying is: Apple should go "all in" on the gaming market, creating a standard GFX language for iOS, OSX plus Windows with tools/libraries available for other console platforms. Thus making it easy to have a "write once" development path that targets all desktop, console and mobile platforms.

Great idea. Now, the minor matter of getting Apple to sign up...
You know, some company did release an IDE that covers development tools for mobile, desktop, console, and Windows and Mac OS X. What's it called again? Jama? Jazza? No, I think it was "Jabba"...

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I always wondered about the possibility of the following scenario: Apple approaches Microsoft and strikes a deal to get the source code for DirectX so that DirectX can be written natively for MacOSX.

Apple has tons of resources (technologies and patents they can choose to share, license, etc) and cash in order to nudge Microsoft.
Considering how DirectX is one of Microsoft's technological crown jewels, that ain't going to happen. What exactly would be in it for Microsoft to let one of their primary competitors have complete access to one of their core APIs? There wouldn't be any clear benefit to them unless Apple would give them a hefty toll in terms of patent concessions, money, etc. I'd foresee MS perhaps doing that, if Apple agreed to base Mac OS X and iOS in their entirety solely upon DirectX instead of Quartz and OpenGL/OpenGL ES...

And what about Apple? The only reason why Apple would want to port DirectX over is to grow gaming on the Mac, but the fact of the matter is that the Mac games market (especially for big budget AAA games) has always been a very small minority of the Mac market as a whole. From Apple's perspective, is it really in Apple's best long term interest to chase after the hardcore gaming market, or to further cement its lead in mobile computing?

On top of that, DirectX is a Microsoft-controlled and Microsoft-owned technology. Even if we assumed for a minute that Microsoft would concede total control over DirectX (which it wouldn't), we'd have a situation where Apple would find itself reliant upon technology that was not under its complete control and that is what Apple, above all, would never allow.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:36 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Solomani View Post
I always wondered about the possibility of the following scenario: Apple approaches Microsoft and strikes a deal to get the source code for DirectX so that DirectX can be written natively for MacOSX.

Apple has tons of resources (technologies and patents they can choose to share, license, etc) and cash in order to nudge Microsoft.


Covers the possibility of that happening...

I loved that game
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 07:09 AM   #109
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Do you also have The Hardy Boys Game of the Year Edition?
I'll never play it! They ruined it with the day one DLC that totally changed the ending of the game!

Bastards! :P
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 08:11 AM   #110
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Personally I have never been interested in Quake/Doom games. Doom 3 was boring. Walk up corridor, shoot. So forth.

Time ID dID something different.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 08:15 AM   #111
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You know, some company did release an IDE that covers development tools for mobile, desktop, console, and Windows and Mac OS X. What's it called again? Jama? Jazza? No, I think it was "Jabba"...
I hope you are not suggesting Java as a standard for gaming development. For one thing, Java is constantly being patched for security issues and every time that happens, the user community has just been through a period of vulnerability for varying periods of time. No thanks.

I could go on about the inadequacy of Java for serious game development but the security issues alone make me loathe to even have it on my system, be it OS X or Windows. I believe recently US Homeland Security advised users to remove it due to security concerns it poses on a regular basis.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 10:09 AM   #112
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I hope you are not suggesting Java as a standard for gaming development. For one thing, Java is constantly being patched for security issues and every time that happens, the user community has just been through a period of vulnerability for varying periods of time. No thanks.

I could go on about the inadequacy of Java for serious game development but the security issues alone make me loathe to even have it on my system, be it OS X or Windows. I believe recently US Homeland Security advised users to remove it due to security concerns it poses on a regular basis.
I think you are confusing the browser plugin using java script and java as a language to develop applications. Using java based applications has nothing to do with those security issues.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 11:39 AM   #113
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Java is market's standard for enterprise web applications, but it's not good for anything else. The fact that runs inside a virtual machine makes it slow and memory & cpu hungry. For the same reason, Java is also nowhere near the real hardware and the real hosting operating system. Hence, it would be a terrible choice as a gaming platform.

And, after all, it would also be a terrible idea to use as a gaming platform the one that is developed, controlled and maintained by a company that has nothing to do with gaming or anything else relative to desktop computing, whatsoever (e.g. oracle).
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 12:22 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Solomani View Post
I always wondered about the possibility of the following scenario: Apple approaches Microsoft and strikes a deal to get the source code for DirectX so that DirectX can be written natively for MacOSX.

Apple has tons of resources (technologies and patents they can choose to share, license, etc) and cash in order to nudge Microsoft.
Unfortunately, companies want USPs and exclusivity. It's not really in their business interests to use cross-platform, open standards - unless they're the underdog. Their plan is to be the dominant player, and using proprietary (and ideally, patent-dependant) standards which makes it difficult for developers to port to other platforms.

Which, sadly, is very much against gamers' interests.

My post was tongue in cheek.. much as I'd have loved to see it.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 01:00 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Dirtyharry50 View Post
I hope you are not suggesting Java as a standard for gaming development. For one thing, Java is constantly being patched for security issues and every time that happens, the user community has just been through a period of vulnerability for varying periods of time. No thanks.

I could go on about the inadequacy of Java for serious game development but the security issues alone make me loathe to even have it on my system, be it OS X or Windows. I believe recently US Homeland Security advised users to remove it due to security concerns it poses on a regular basis.
As the poster below states it's the plugin that can be a security risk not the language. It's a bit like saying C++ is a security risk because someone used it to write malware.

The security issues for a stand alone application are none existent in fact your average java application is more secure than your average native Mac app. That's cause Java apps are rigorously sandboxed for security.

The real reason java is rubbish for AAA games is it is designed to be platform agnostic and compiles into portable byte code. That's great for cross platform compatibility but bad if you need to get high performance by taking advantage of specific platforms. When you are drawing graphics this becomes even more critical.

Bottom line Java is brilliant for many things high end gaming is not one of them


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I think you are confusing the browser plugin using java script and java as a language to develop applications. Using java based applications has nothing to do with those security issues.
Actually you're not completely correct The Java updates in browsers is the update to the "Java virtual runtime" plugin which allow you to run Java applications inside a webpage. It has nothing to do with the JavaScript scripting language that is supported inside browsers usually with a javascript engine. I think the Safari engine is called Nitro.

Simply put Javascript is built into the browser itself, Java Runtime support is a plugin.

The first is a scripting language the second allows you to run applications written in the java programming language.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 06:49 PM   #116
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Personally I have never been interested in Quake/Doom games. Doom 3 was boring. Walk up corridor, shoot. So forth.

Time ID dID something different.
Their game engines have always been their real showcases, and, I suspect, their real money makers.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 01:47 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by MacGamerHQ View Post
Indeed, it's not "easy" to understand there's a part 2. Actually, it's not quite a part 2, but a Version 2.0.
I will have to add the links in both articles to make this clearer, thanks for the comment!

You can find it here:
The State of Mac Gaming
I've gone through your other article, and while I do like how you've tried to take a more holistic approach, I think that your piece would be greatly strengthened by looking at some of the issues I mentioned in my other reply. Looking at some of your graphs reminded me of the Humble Bundle sales data, and how, for pretty much every HIB, the average price for Mac platform sales was overall higher than it was for Windows sales. Perhaps it would be something worth looking at in a potential part 3.

The really huge problem here though is how you define a "top game". Surely you see the problems inherent with MetaCritic, and how they're actually harming the games industry? TotalBiscuit talks at length about this, but for clear proof of this you can look at what happened to Obsidian and their MetaCritic debacle with Bethesda over Fallout: New Vegas.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 01:57 AM   #118
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I hope you are not suggesting Java as a standard for gaming development. For one thing, Java is constantly being patched for security issues and every time that happens, the user community has just been through a period of vulnerability for varying periods of time. No thanks.
Well, no, just a little playful ribbing since what that OP imagined was what Java was intended to actually be.

Apple going "all in" on the gaming market wouldn't be Apple creating some magical graphics library or IDE that would make games work on iOS, Mac OS X and Windows: it would be Apple making a push for games in the living room with Apple TV, making a push for quality games on the MAS and the iOS App Store (as opposed to the scam-laden mess they are now), and making a push for game development/consumption with laptops/desktops featuring top-of-the-line graphics, optimized gfx drivers, a good, well supported IDE with a developer-friendly corporate stance on the level of Microsoft, and a modernized, up-to-date implementation of OpenGL.

Given all of that, it's simply not in Apple's self-identified best interest to do this. Games simply aren't important to Apple. And from a purely objective point of view, I don't think it should be. It's mobile computing which is driving the market and driving product trends for the future, and it was Apple's stubborn persistence to this which led to the MacBook Air, the iPhone, the iPad, etc. And the result is that it's made them a lot of money, while the rest of the industry has been scrambling to catch up on all fronts.

If we want gaming to be significant on the Mac, we shouldn't rely on Apple to do it for us. If anything, we should be looking to the indie scene and places like Kickstarter and the Humble Store/Humble Indie Bundle to raise the profile of Mac gaming.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 05:50 AM   #119
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As the poster below states it's the plugin that can be a security risk not the language. It's a bit like saying C++ is a security risk because someone used it to write malware.

The security issues for a stand alone application are none existent in fact your average java application is more secure than your average native Mac app. That's cause Java apps are rigorously sandboxed for security.

The real reason java is rubbish for AAA games is it is designed to be platform agnostic and compiles into portable byte code. That's great for cross platform compatibility but bad if you need to get high performance by taking advantage of specific platforms. When you are drawing graphics this becomes even more critical.

Bottom line Java is brilliant for many things high end gaming is not one of them




Actually you're not completely correct The Java updates in browsers is the update to the "Java virtual runtime" plugin which allow you to run Java applications inside a webpage. It has nothing to do with the JavaScript scripting language that is supported inside browsers usually with a javascript engine. I think the Safari engine is called Nitro.

Simply put Javascript is built into the browser itself, Java Runtime support is a plugin.

The first is a scripting language the second allows you to run applications written in the java programming language.
I guess my post was not very clear nor long enough. I understand what you are saying and naturally, it isn't the language itself, etc. I am admittedly no expert in java but I was under the impression that at least some of the security updates being released were for the VM itself, not the plugin. Btw, doesn't one typically need the insecure plugin to update the VM whenever updates to it are released? And currently, doesn't Oracle install both the plugin and VM without offering an option to skip the plugin?

I guess a developer could bypass this stuff but as has already been noted, java sucks for game development.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 06:06 AM   #120
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I guess my post was not very clear nor long enough. I understand what you are saying and naturally, it isn't the language itself, etc. I am admittedly no expert in java but I was under the impression that at least some of the security updates being released were for the VM itself, not the plugin. Btw, doesn't one typically need the insecure plugin to update the VM whenever updates to it are released? And currently, doesn't Oracle install both the plugin and VM without offering an option to skip the plugin?

I guess a developer could bypass this stuff but as has already been noted, java sucks for game development.
The problem with java is all the different platforms having different security standards, auto updating etc not being reliable/built in on some versions etc.

You end up with loads of different versions on different OSs and it becomes hard to tell who is safe and who is not. That's likely why government departments say just don't install it. It's unlikely a government worker will need Java so why have the headache of monitoring all the different versions of Java and OS combinations for issues etc.

Banning it is a simple solution. If it is not installed you don't need to do anything

As for your question you can disable the plugin and leave the VM if you wish but by default both the plugin and the VM are installed last time I checked.

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Old Feb 14, 2013, 06:38 AM   #121
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Well, no, just a little playful ribbing since what that OP imagined was what Java was intended to actually be.

Apple going "all in" on the gaming market wouldn't be Apple creating some magical graphics library or IDE that would make games work on iOS, Mac OS X and Windows: it would be Apple making a push for games in the living room with Apple TV, making a push for quality games on the MAS and the iOS App Store (as opposed to the scam-laden mess they are now), and making a push for game development/consumption with laptops/desktops featuring top-of-the-line graphics, optimized gfx drivers, a good, well supported IDE with a developer-friendly corporate stance on the level of Microsoft, and a modernized, up-to-date implementation of OpenGL.

Given all of that, it's simply not in Apple's self-identified best interest to do this. Games simply aren't important to Apple. And from a purely objective point of view, I don't think it should be. It's mobile computing which is driving the market and driving product trends for the future, and it was Apple's stubborn persistence to this which led to the MacBook Air, the iPhone, the iPad, etc. And the result is that it's made them a lot of money, while the rest of the industry has been scrambling to catch up on all fronts.

If we want gaming to be significant on the Mac, we shouldn't rely on Apple to do it for us. If anything, we should be looking to the indie scene and places like Kickstarter and the Humble Store/Humble Indie Bundle to raise the profile of Mac gaming.
All Mac gaming needs is what has already been happening and hopefully will continue happening: Macs gaining marketshare. The more Macs that are out there over time, the more the lack of games problem sorts itself. Another recent development I see as a good sign following Steam and GOG releases for Mac is now Origin too and Feral titles on Origin. Things are looking pretty darned good for gaming on Macs in the future I think and while indies are great at times, I don't think we're dependent on them to "raise the profile of Mac gaming" nor are we particularly dependent on Kickstarter projects but all of that is good too and following the trend of growth in availability of quality games for Macintosh users. EA is just getting started with Mac titles on Origin. I'm looking forward to seeing what they roll out as time goes by.

I think you would agree, I think most here would, that Apple's wild success with mobile products has opened a lot of eyes to Macintosh computers and will probably continue to fuel interest and increased sales. I read a good article the other day on Computerworld about the increased acceptance of Macs in business thanks to the widespread adoption of iPads and iPhones within many IT organizations.

I think Apple cares about gaming and this is why gaming capable GPUs are in iMacs and MacBooks. The options for iMac are clearly targeted to gamers for example. The App Store not only carries but often highlights games on its main page. This is not exactly indicative of the company not caring about gaming.

I don't see why it is perceived as some sort of problem that Macs don't have DirectX and need games to be ported to the platform. PS3 and Wii U don't have DirectX either but do just fine without it, don't they? Some titles are ported from XBox to PS3, etc. Some titles are ported from PS3 to XBox, many console titles are ported to PCs, some PC titles are ported to Macs.

Macintosh is just another platform to play games on and as this platform gains in popularity with consumers for all manner of reasons, the increased availability of games will follow. It's happening now.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 08:47 AM   #122
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Given all of that, it's simply not in Apple's self-identified best interest to do this. Games simply aren't important to Apple. And from a purely objective point of view, I don't think it should be. It's mobile computing which is driving the market and driving product trends for the future, and it was Apple's stubborn persistence to this which led to the MacBook Air, the iPhone, the iPad, etc. And the result is that it's made them a lot of money, while the rest of the industry has been scrambling to catch up on all fronts.
Gaming should be important to Apple, as it's a great way of driving upgrades.

I don't need a faster Mac for Xcode, Parallels, Mail, Safari; I don't need a faster iPad or iPhone for Maps, the web, mail, Facebook. I can't think of many apps on the iPad4 that don't run fast enough, so I wonder how Apple will entice people to keep upgrading as the market starts becoming saturated. A new form factor / styling will go so far, but cutting edge games (Real Racing, Galaxy on Fire 2 etc.) have a nearly-endless appetite for faster hardware.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:24 AM   #123
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Gaming should be important to Apple, as it's a great way of driving upgrades.

I don't need a faster Mac for Xcode, Parallels, Mail, Safari; I don't need a faster iPad or iPhone for Maps, the web, mail, Facebook. I can't think of many apps on the iPad4 that don't run fast enough, so I wonder how Apple will entice people to keep upgrading as the market starts becoming saturated. A new form factor / styling will go so far, but cutting edge games (Real Racing, Galaxy on Fire 2 etc.) have a nearly-endless appetite for faster hardware.
I agree with your point. Still, Apple did come out with retina display, so now they have to upgrade their hardware just to make it usable for gaming @ that kind of resolution.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:39 AM   #124
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I agree with your point. Still, Apple did come out with retina display, so now they have to upgrade their hardware just to make it usable for gaming @ that kind of resolution.
Very true!

But I think Apple may struggle to keep coming out with 'must have' features like the Retina display. It's hard to see where they can go next with the display technology, the iPad 4 seems fast enough for most (non gaming) applications... will people buy the iPad 5/6 for a different styling/colour or marginally better battery life?
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:47 AM   #125
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Gaming should be important to Apple, as it's a great way of driving upgrades.

I don't need a faster Mac for Xcode, Parallels, Mail, Safari; I don't need a faster iPad or iPhone for Maps, the web, mail, Facebook. I can't think of many apps on the iPad4 that don't run fast enough, so I wonder how Apple will entice people to keep upgrading as the market starts becoming saturated. A new form factor / styling will go so far, but cutting edge games (Real Racing, Galaxy on Fire 2 etc.) have a nearly-endless appetite for faster hardware.
I remember sat with my dad after opening up our brand new Mac Plus with 20MB HD talking about how crazy fast it was and how would we ever fill that HUGE 20MB (yes MB) hard disk.

My point is more power is always good useful you don't realise at the time but it kinda creeps up on you and before you know it you would benefit from some more power.

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I don't need a faster Mac for Xcode
Really? You're the first person I know who uses Xcode and has not complained about it running slowly. You must have the lucky horseshoe of Xcode performance :-)

When developing complex applications (like games) I find it runs slowly and your machine grinds to a halt unless you have a bare minimum of 16GB of RAM for a 4 core machine if you have an 8 core you should have 32GB of RAM to be safe! Never found a programmer who did not want a faster CPU RAM combo to speed up compilation and debugging.

For the average user as you mention an iMac will last a few years before it gets slow, if they buy it with a decent mid to high range card the graphics will keep up for a at least few years before it needs replacing as it cannot run new games.

However if you can afford it the Pro line offers really good value for money over time. I have a 8 Core 2008 Pro at work and it is still as fast if not faster than the fastest iMac money can buy today and that is over 4 years later! With GPU upgrades it will likely last a few more years yet before it starts to have to drop settings when playing games. That is impressive!

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