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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:27 PM   #76
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And him marrying into money and to the daughter of the CEO of Clear Channel isn't a conflict of interest?
Well, before we go down that path let's just go ahead and get it out of the way:

every single one of these politicians is bought off by lobbyists or some other influence.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:30 PM   #77
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Last time I checked WWII ended 68 years ago, so most rebuilding happened 50 years ago.... well atleast in West Germany, East Germany on the other side really had to be rebuild in the past 23 years.

Now all that has nothing to do with the price of fish

Back in the days prior to the collapse of the East things were just handled completly different in (West) Germany compared to the US when it came to the economy.

In the past 20 years the 100% dedication to shareholder-value has slowly creeped in and now Germany is on the same way as the US has been since Reagan (if not earlier). We now do have a whole class of working poor, who have to rely on hand-outs depsite working full hours, and all bigger cities have frowing ghettos full of people with failed education who don't now work for the 2nd or 3rd generation....
Yes, Germany is heading the way of the US and it's quite sad to watch..

These in my experience are mostly Turks, Persians, Kurds, and Russians. I live in Stuttgart and there are rough area there but nothing like you'll see in the States. It's not even in the same league.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:34 PM   #78
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Exactly. The very people who have no need for the pay raise.
I will give you $100,000,000 in pay cuts and 200,000 employees with low pay, that gives $500 / year, that's not even $0.25 / hour.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:34 PM   #79
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Why can't other countries be the best? Idk, I guess I don't understand the whole American Exceptionalism thing, nor do I understand the logic behind nationalism.
You don't get it.

It's not that other countries can't be the best.

It's the fact that, regardless if we are actually the best at something or not, we should always be working to get better.


Your location says you are from Ohio. The Bengals made the playoffs this past season but lost in the first playoff game. What is their mentality going to be going in to this offseason? Should they be thinking "hey, we made the playoffs, that's good enough?" Or should they be thinking "hey, we made the playoffs, but that's not good enough, we want to win the Super Bowl."


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I will give you $100,000,000 in pay cuts and 200,000 employees with low pay, that gives $500 / year, that's not even $0.25 / hour.
$500 a year to someone making $14,000 a year is almost 4% of their yearly salary. It can make a big difference.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:38 PM   #80
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And him marrying into money and to the daughter of the CEO of Clear Channel isn't a conflict of interest?
The same question can be asked of any of the senators on that list.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:41 PM   #81
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Yes, Germany is heading the way of the US and it's quite sad to watch..

These in my experience are mostly Turks, Persians, Kurds, and Russians. I live in Stuttgart and there are rough area there but nothing like you'll see in the States. It's not even in the same league.

Don't worry there are more than enough "natives" heading that way too....
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:45 PM   #82
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You don't get it.

It's not that other countries can't be the best.

It's the fact that, regardless if we are actually the best at something or not, we should always be working to get better.


Your location says you are from Ohio. The Bengals made the playoffs this past season but lost in the first playoff game. What is their mentality going to be going in to this offseason? Should they be thinking "hey, we made the playoffs, that's good enough?" Or should they be thinking "hey, we made the playoffs, but that's not good enough, we want to win the Super Bowl."



$500 a year to someone making $14,000 a year is almost 4% of their yearly salary. It can make a big difference.
But not $1.75 difference to $9.00 and I don't think executives and directors even get $100 million in salary combined. What I'm getting at is CEO and executives pay is insignificant to the overall cost like people say.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:52 PM   #83
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The same question can be asked of any of the senators on that list.


The thing is many of these politicians are bought off by big money as it is. Then you have the fact that the system is rigged to have the duopoly of the two party system. And to win in that system, politicians need to have a huge war chest of money.

What's really needed is to take money out of politics and publicly fund elections. That way, rich politicians aren't running the government and we can actually get proportional representation in our government along with electing average income people.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:53 PM   #84
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Don't worry there are more than enough "natives" heading that way too....
I'm not native so maybe I either notice it more or still see Germans the way I want..

Maybe it's solely perspective?
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:16 PM   #85
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What's really needed is to take money out of politics and publicly fund elections. That way, rich politicians aren't running the government and we can actually get proportional representation in our government along with electing average income people.
And you need to pay them a proper salary so they aren't beholden to big business.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:20 PM   #86
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Target's CEO pay $24,000,000 divide by 365,000 employees = $65 / year = $0.03 / hour for part time workers.
While I don't think that simply cutting a CEO's pay and giving it to the workers would yield any real uptick in the workers' wages, it's simply insulting (in my opinion) for a CEO to be making more than 1,000 times what most of the employees probably make. It's not deserved. It's not earned. It's just there because it's the way to big boys' club works. Sorry, but I don't agree that one CEO is worth 1000 employees.

And THEN turn around and complain that the world is rigged against him and he has to pay too much in taxes.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:21 PM   #87
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If you think that's low, just ask a server or any tipped employee what their hourly wage is..

In America this is how we feel better about ourselves we can go into a store or restaurant and know we make more money the modern day servants. Yet out of the other side of our mouth complain that people who work in stores don't know anything about the product and can't make any decisions like they used to

When you could sell things in a store and support yourself and a small family.
and every server/bartender I know makes great money off tips that most have told me they understate when filing taxes.

They went in knowing the wage so I have no sympathy in that regard
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:26 PM   #88
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While I don't think that simply cutting a CEO's pay and giving it to the workers would yield any real uptick in the workers' wages, it's simply insulting (in my opinion) for a CEO to be making more than 1,000 times what most of the employees probably make. It's not deserved. It's not earned. It's just there because it's the way to big boys' club works. Sorry, but I don't agree that one CEO is worth 1000 employees.

And THEN turn around and complain that the world is rigged against him and he has to pay too much in taxes.
Do you have any examples?
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:35 PM   #89
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Sorry, but I don't agree that one CEO is worth 1000 employees.
MacRumors appropriate... Steve Jobs?

Can't deny his impact on Apple

Edit: I mean total compensation, not his $1 salary.

Last edited by anonymouslurker; Feb 13, 2013 at 03:41 PM.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:36 PM   #90
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And you need to pay them a proper salary so they aren't beholden to big business.


Actually, it's not all about congressional pay because congress members make something like $200k per year plus benefits. That's a lot more than most of the working poor here. Keep in mind that politicians do stay in office for many years so their annual salary is nothing to squawk at.

What needs to be done away with is the revolving door when politicians leave and become lobbyists themselves for a lot more money than they would by doing the will of the people. The other issue is with campaign finance. The reason why politicians give into the lobbyists, corporations, and other big money interests is the fact that these entities donate to their campaigns.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:38 PM   #91
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While I don't think that simply cutting a CEO's pay and giving it to the workers would yield any real uptick in the workers' wages, it's simply insulting (in my opinion) for a CEO to be making more than 1,000 times what most of the employees probably make. It's not deserved. It's not earned. It's just there because it's the way to big boys' club works. Sorry, but I don't agree that one CEO is worth 1000 employees.

And THEN turn around and complain that the world is rigged against him and he has to pay too much in taxes.
I think all executives should have a low base salary and a bonus depending on performance on the company but that likely is never going to happen.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:39 PM   #92
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Do you have any examples?
Other than this guy, I really don't. (See, I can say it.)

I'm guessing I just hear it from too many of their mouthpieces, or people who aren't actually in that position saying that the multi-millionaires already pay too much.

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MacRumors appropriate... Steve Jobs?

Can't deny his impact on Apple
Eh, I was never really a Steve Jobs acolyte. Did he do great things? Sure. Do I agree that someone, even in his position, should make tens of millions while having droves of employees scraping to get by? Not for a second. And no, I'm not talking directly about Apple.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:40 PM   #93
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and every server/bartender I know makes great money off tips that most have told me they understate when filing taxes.

They went in knowing the wage so I have no sympathy in that regard
Until they don't..
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 PM   #94
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Other than this guy
I agree that people like that shouldn't complain. It seems to be a money management or poor business planning with him.

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I really don't. (See, I can say it.)
Good for you, I guess.

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I'm guessing I just hear it from too many of their mouthpieces, or people who aren't actually in that position saying that the multi-millionaires already pay too much.
Funny, I hear a lot of mouthpieces claiming they don't pay enough.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:59 PM   #95
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Funny, I hear a lot of mouthpieces claiming they don't pay enough.
True. You hear both sides. But, what I'm saying is, you see these two arguments mostly:

- Mr. Lotsabux makes tens of millions of dollars per year. He pays way too much in tax even if it's a lower rate, and he shouldn't have to pay his employees a living wage because the market says so.
- Mr. Lotsabux makes tens of millions of dollars per year. He should be paying at least an equal, if not higher rate of tax than the average individual, and he should be paying his employees a living wage.

One of the above makes the most sense.

As has been discussed several times before, you basically have
- Keep low wages. Pay more welfare. Subsidize business. People taken care of.
- Raise wages. Pay less welfare. Don't subsidize business. People taken care of.
- Keep low wages. Pay less welfare. Don't subsidize business. People starving and homeless.
- Raise wages. Pay more welfare. World implodes.

Which of the above is the best course of action?
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:04 PM   #96
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Minimum wage should definitely be increased.

7.25 is ridiculous.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:08 PM   #97
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you brought up drinking contaminated water not Me..

You also said that Germany current "affluence" was based on the Marshall Plan or the the amount of money spent rebuilding it after WWII.

People have been drinking contaminated water in the US for many years.

And Germany's current "affluence" has far more to due with their education system than the Marshall Plan
I don't know why you quoted the word affluence, as I didn't use it once.

My original point was that no one in the US is having to dig holes in the ground to look for clean water to drink. Sorry that I didn't explicitly state that. But to reiterate my earlier point, whilst there are areas of deprivation, the US is categorically not a Third World country. Which was my point in the first place, and I think I'm going to stick a fork in that one.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:13 PM   #98
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I don't know why you quoted the word affluence, as I didn't use it once.

My original point was that no one in the US is having to dig holes in the ground to look for clean water to drink. Sorry that I didn't explicitly state that. But to reiterate my earlier point, whilst there are areas of deprivation, the US is categorically not a Third World country. Which was my point in the first place, and I think I'm going to stick a fork in that one.
And to that I said you right we are not Africa but using it as reference to prove a point.

Americans drink polluted water, kids die of exposure because they don't have homes etc. we are not yet a third world but headed in that direction.

your right you didn't use the term I did, I used it to describe non-poverty, non-living in slums since affluence is the opposite of those things. but you did attribute it to the Marshal Plan that is coming up to it's 70th birthday.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:15 PM   #99
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9 dollars an hour? I can make more panhandling on the NYC subways.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 05:11 PM   #100
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9 dollars an hour? I can make more panhandling on the NYC subways.

Sad but probably true. And what makes it worse is that Obama said $9/hour last night in his SOTU.

Why oh why isn't anyone of importance saying something like a "LIVABLE WAGE" that should be at least $14.50?
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