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Old Feb 15, 2013, 10:59 AM   #76
Dorje Sylas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
What would also have been a game changer and major selling point for the Apple TV with regards to content:

http://www.gaikai.com/

Sony was faster, though. Imagine a native Gaikai cloud games app (without the JAVA component) on the Apple TV to play all games that are available on the PC/consoles. Sony really did a great job buying them as fast as they did. Why Apple didnīt do this is just beyond me. They have so much money that is just laying around. The technology to deliver games to people just blew my mind. It really looked fantastic when I demoed it. And it will get even better with more advanced compression algorithms like HEVC in the future.
Still too early for this kind of tech. While this would work in countries like Korea or even Japan, this doesn't work as well in larger countries like the United States or Australia. Part of the problem is the internet backbone for general consumers is not up to streaming live video games at even a fraction of the quality of a live game. It most certainly isn't an option for any "twitch" based game play where sensitivity to network latency is already and issue.

Slap all the compression on you want, if it still takes 80ms for the video to get to player and get decoded it's already too late. You don't see this with live video. OnLive tried to push this market, and basically brained itself.

Too early. Technology and infrastructure are not there to support it. Apple will not embrace streaming live Apps across the Internet....

That ranted, if Apple was to leverage their ecosystem effect you could get a home Mac (even a MacMini in some cases) to run and stream games on local home networks, which can handle it. This is where Valve is looking, not Internet to TV games but PC to TV games.

To expand, unless the AppleTV gets a serious memory boost it'll have a hard time storing more then a few games at time. If it could pull from an iTunes cached App on a local network Mac to live swap games or even partially load them mid-play, that would change things. Considering other iOS devices can already have their content 'synced' while in use and over WiFi this is actually a possible and practical option. I've seen others on MacRumors point out that using a TimeCapsule could also be used for similar App caching.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:23 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by HobeSoundDarryl View Post
If you can stream a movie stored on a fat hard drive attached to a computer elsewhere in the house, that same drive could also store 1000 apps that could be streamed over one at time when you are wanting to run one on an TV.

TV is not like the other iDevices. It's not intended to be mobile (out and about). Instead, it is pretty much always tethered to up to all of the storage one could attach to the computer somewhere else in the house. In this way, it's an iDevice with many Terabytes of storage... plus an 8GB buffer.
True, but running apps from a remote storage device entails some additional challenges ... like what if the remote unit is down or if there is a connectivity error, also streaming large apps across a network (especially over WiFi) maybe an issue.

Most likely apps if they exist will be installed onboard while media will be streamed.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:23 AM   #78
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:32 AM   #79
HobeSoundDarryl
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Originally Posted by Dorje Sylas View Post
If it could pull from an iTunes cached App on a local network Mac to live swap games or even partially load them mid-play, that would change things. Considering other iOS devices can already have their content 'synced' while in use and over WiFi this is actually a possible and practical option. I've seen others on MacRumors point out that using a TimeCapsule could also be used for similar App caching.
In my opinion, that is exactly how it would work. Modern games are a relatively small percentage of processing code and a lot of (mostly graphics & sound) data. The processing code portion needs to be on-board so the CPU can execute whatever needs to be adjusted on the display. The data is the actual images, models, backdrops, etc used to fill in what needs to be on the display. The TV buffer could hold the current apps processing code on board and stream the data as it's needed... much like the TV holds the processing code on board to decode a movie but actually streams the data that is the movie imagery on the fly.

Never-the-less, we can also consider that even "big" apps these days tend to be about 1GB or less. I downloaded Infinity Blade for iPad yesterday and it is 596MB in its entirety. If that could be pushed to the TV, it could be stored entirely locally (no stream required).

My speculations about TV app gaming are broader still. The real horsepower for image processing is going to be back at the computer rather than on the TV, so I believe the setup will be for the computer- not the TV- to do the heavy lifting and just stream the rendered video to the TV. Processing on the TV will probably be limited to simply sending the gamer's actions back to the computer so that it can adjust the image accordingly. If we want to imagine an TV game app being as rich as XBox or Playstation, it will need the computing horses to compete head-to-head. That's not in the little box that is TV but it is in the bigger box on that Mac somewhere else in the house. Do the heavy lifting there and then just stream what should be on the TV screen back to the TV which- for the latter- would be little different than just streaming and playing any movie or TV show.

If I was betting on gaming apps implementations, this is how I think it would get done. Else, all apps with XBox & Playstation counterparts will be modestly-to-obviously inferior in detail and speed since the TV does not have the horses of the dedicated boxes. New Macs in the other room though can do that processing very well.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolspot18 View Post
True, but running apps from a remote storage device entails some additional challenges ... like what if the remote unit is down or if there is a connectivity error, also streaming large apps across a network (especially over WiFi) maybe an issue.

Most likely apps if they exist will be installed onboard while media will be streamed.
What is one of these large apps that exceed 8GB now? If apps have to be installed onboard, then all TVs are obsolete when an app store is opened (as it will take only a small app collection to fill 8GB).

While all iDevices have a kind of multitasking, they show only 1 active app at a time on screen. Stream over the 1 app we want on our TV screen at that moment and it can own up to the full 8GB buffer while we want to do whatever we want do with it. When we're done with it, it gets dumped out of memory and the next app can be loaded (just like how it works on other iDevices except the app doesn't have to be on flash memory inside the case because the TV is designed to be always tethered to much larger storage on the master computer elsewhere in the house).

And as I just wrote, I don't think the answer is to have TV doing the heavy lifting or heavy processing. I think the better answer is to offload that to the computer and just stream the resulting video back to the TV. Then the TV is still very much playing a kind of movie (stream) that happens to react differently based on us hitting a button or similar.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:53 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by extensor View Post
In addition to existing content and apps, I would like to see Apple include an app like iBooks Author but for TV shows. Making it easy for anyone to produce their own shows and sell them thru iTunes. appleTV Author?
FCP/iMovie will do the job.

Unless of course I'm missing something...

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Old Feb 15, 2013, 02:28 PM   #81
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Unless Apple comes out with a real gaming controller with real buttons, I don't see gaming take off on the AppleTV.

It's quite expensive to expect users who don't already have one to go out and get an iPod Touch or iPhone to use as a game controller.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 05:41 PM   #82
scbrain
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iWatch is the controller for the new Apple TV?

If the watch had accelerometers in it, could this be the new gaming controller?
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 05:56 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by gkarris View Post
Unless Apple comes out with a real gaming controller with real buttons, I don't see gaming take off on the AppleTV.

It's quite expensive to expect users who don't already have one to go out and get an iPod Touch or iPhone to use as a game controller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scbrain View Post
If the watch had accelerometers in it, could this be the new gaming controller?
I'm quit sure Apple has a game controller with buttons planned if they are indeed bringing real games to the Apple TV ecosystem.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 06:24 PM   #84
WilliamLondon
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I'm quit sure Apple has a game controller with buttons planned if they are indeed bringing real games to the Apple TV ecosystem.
That's essential I think for its success, and I that's what I hope for. If they create a (good) controller and standardise the interface for gaming on this device, it'll be the new thing everyone wants, and the developers who have iOS games will rush to modify their (wonderful) games to work with this new controller on the ATV.

My PS3 already sits there since I got my mini, it may never get turned on again if Apple does this right (and it's so entirely possible and seems obvious, I really hope they give it a go).
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:36 PM   #85
swingerofbirch
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Originally Posted by bbeagle View Post
What we really need are trolls off these forums.
I am a venerated member of the MacRumors community, and I stand by my comment.

My comment was a statement on Apple's current thinking. Apple brags about the numbers of applications available for its devices, when most of those applications are low-value, single purpose, repurposed web-sites that would be better as web apps (something Apple has given up on promoting, apple.com/webapps isn't even a mobile site or web app itself). Apple encourages everyone to make an application. Having 750,000 single purpose applications with very limited inter-functionality is a short-term approach to success, not a long-term computing environment for customers. Macs of the 1990s didn't have 750,000 apps and didn't need them. For professionals, a Mac of the 1990s was more extensible and useful than a iOS device of today.

The Web is a useful organization of billions of single-purpose pages that now exchange information with each other and are accessible easily through Google. The App Store doesn't have that type of value.

There are some applications that will be valuable for the Apple TV. But if development for the Apple TV is the type of gold rush, any piece of crap app goes environment of other iOS devices, well, I'm not as excited about it as you may be.

Hence, my non-trolling comment about farting apps coming to the Apple TV.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 12:15 AM   #86
iSunrise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorje Sylas View Post
Still too early for this kind of tech. While this would work in countries like Korea or even Japan, this doesn't work as well in larger countries like the United States or Australia. Part of the problem is the internet backbone for general consumers is not up to streaming live video games at even a fraction of the quality of a live game. It most certainly isn't an option for any "twitch" based game play where sensitivity to network latency is already and issue.

Slap all the compression on you want, if it still takes 80ms for the video to get to player and get decoded it's already too late. You don't see this with live video. OnLive tried to push this market, and basically brained itself.

Too early. Technology and infrastructure are not there to support it. Apple will not embrace streaming live Apps across the Internet....

That ranted, if Apple was to leverage their ecosystem effect you could get a home Mac (even a MacMini in some cases) to run and stream games on local home networks, which can handle it. This is where Valve is looking, not Internet to TV games but PC to TV games.

To expand, unless the AppleTV gets a serious memory boost it'll have a hard time storing more then a few games at time. If it could pull from an iTunes cached App on a local network Mac to live swap games or even partially load them mid-play, that would change things. Considering other iOS devices can already have their content 'synced' while in use and over WiFi this is actually a possible and practical option. I've seen others on MacRumors point out that using a TimeCapsule could also be used for similar App caching.
You know, from reading your post I get the impression that you didnīt even test Gaikai at all. Gaikai already has a HUGE presence with streaming servers placed all over the world. Just look at their already established infrastructure, before making any assumptions. To compare OnLive with Gaikai is just laughable.

Where did you even come up with that 80ms number anyway? 80ms for like 4-5 hops to their streaming servers? Are you serious? My pings where in the 8-15ms range and I had no packet loss at all. If you get the servers closer to the ISPs, USA or Australia wonīt have any problems at all, pings are good enough already. I am also not sure what you mean with your decoding comment. A low-bandwidth H.264 stream is so cheap on current gen hardware already, it doesnīt matter at all.

I demoed Gaikai in Germany for several days with like a couple of dozen current games and it was impressive and easily playable. And I am very sensitive to lag/delay and I was VERY skeptical at first.

The technology can also be utlized for other things, too. You will be the first who is be quite surprised when SONY launches it. They really made a great buy with Gaikai.

Think about the big picture and not the short-term use. Apple is a technology company and 500 million is peanuts for Apple.

Last edited by iSunrise; Feb 16, 2013 at 12:24 AM.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 01:19 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by HobeSoundDarryl View Post
,,The processing code portion needs to be on-board so the CPU can execute whatever needs to be adjusted on the display. The data is the actual images, models, backdrops, etc used to fill in what needs to be on the display. ..

Never-the-less, we can also consider that even "big" apps these days tend to be about 1GB or less. I downloaded Infinity Blade for iPad yesterday and it is 596MB in its entirety. ..
The real horsepower for image processing is going to be back at the computer rather than on the TV, so I believe the setup will be for the computer- not the TV- to do the heavy lifting and just stream the rendered video to the TV.
Thats how AirVideo works - awesome app, btw - computer processes movie files and just streams video directly to my iPad. Yesterday I also downloaded Blade Infinity (it was free - yeah!) - and graphics are above everything i played just few years ago (and I am still fan of original UT99, especially Two Faces map). Just wish they add some CGI blood splashing when cutting monsters haha.
Streaming games locally will really reduce latency and lag, of course, however, will require an additional mac or PC.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 11:41 AM   #88
Tech198
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YAY... .. Is Apple getting the feeling that they will never be able to control anything ?

Well... HBO Go is a good start

Now if only they can "cut the cable companies" and let everyone enjoy these.

.... Pandora for ATV would be good too..

Just tryed this and worked great... Sad to say, I cancelled my Spotify account for this.

This this is coming to Itunes, it only a matter of time before we may see this also on Apple TV. *fingers crossed*
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 12:31 PM   #89
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YAY... .. Is Apple getting the feeling that they will never be able to control anything ?

Well... HBO Go is a good start

Now if only they can "cut the cable companies" and let everyone enjoy these.

.... Pandora for ATV would be good too..

Just tryed this and worked great... Sad to say, I cancelled my Spotify account for this.

This this is coming to Itunes, it only a matter of time before we may see this also on Apple TV. *fingers crossed*
HBO Go is, well, not so exciting. You still have to subscribe to cable/satellite AND HBO. Plus, chances are your cable box already does the HBO Go thing.

Other apps can go a long way of "cutting the cable."

As for music, Pandora is bleh. I was a premium subscriber for a long time, listening mostly on my computer or mobile. But when I got a receiver that featured Pandora and played it through some decent speakers, the quality was very noticeably sub-par -- it turns out that even premium subscribers get 128kbps on stand-alone boxes, as opposed to 196kbps as available on computers and mobile -- I'd imagine ATV will be considered a standalone box. In other words, even if you had Pandora on ATV, you'd still get higher bitrate (196kbps vs 128kbps) streaming through AIrplay from your iPad.

I personally dumped Pandora and after exploring the competition, including Spotify, settled on MOG, which for my money offers the best audio quality and probably the best catalog.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 06:31 PM   #90
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3D movie support PLEASE apple !!!!

(Also if do do a Proper TV set, lets have it Glasses free 3D 4k, that WOULD be revolutionary)
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 11:23 PM   #91
Tech198
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3D movie support PLEASE apple !!!!

(Also if do do a Proper TV set, lets have it Glasses free 3D 4k, that WOULD be revolutionary)

You may actually get your wish....... as it would take this long to convince TV networks/movie studios. Hence, why Apple may need something sooner...

Of course, i could be wrong.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 08:26 AM   #92
alangore
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What I want on my ATV is not games but more apps that provide content. Why can't I get Amazon Movie and Amazon Instant Video? Why can't I get my cable provider's "to go" service for shows I missed when I was away?
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 08:32 AM   #93
Carl Sagan
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For real gamers, hardcore multiplayer gamers, you are correct. But there is not really that many people.
Really? Kinda forgetting the tens of millions that buy CoD and Battlefield each year. Not what any reasonable person could call a minority interest....
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 12:24 PM   #94
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Really? Kinda forgetting the tens of millions that buy CoD and Battlefield each year. Not what any reasonable person could call a minority interest....

teenagers

soldiers play CoD to relax after a mission in afghanistan
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 01:59 PM   #95
Carl Sagan
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teenagers

soldiers play CoD to relax after a mission in afghanistan
The average age of a gamers is something like 34. So you're living in a fantasy world if you think all FPS players are kids.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:59 AM   #96
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I have been waiting for an Apple TV app store for years now. I agree that the move to the TV set will be preceded by moves on the current 99$ Apple TV.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 05:10 PM   #97
Bheleu
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Spec Wish List

128GB Storage (at least enough to buffer some video content), ability to install video related applications, and buffer a movie for later (4k).
3DTV Output Capability (as this is where the content is really headed, who buys Blu-Ray or DVDs anymore, unless there is a 3D Disc - I will not purchase it). This also adds 3D iTunes content to resell to people, and drives the market to create more 3D content.
External Storage, though nice is not something APPLE typically allows - due to nuances between different storage vendors (faulty storage media, vs an issue with the device itself, returns on perfectly good units).
iCloud Support (capability to make $$$ storing data).
3D Streaming of Apple Events, Sports, etc.
3D Applications & Games (on your 3D TV), a new dimenion of Angry Birds.
So will this mean we will have i3D as a future trademark battle?

Indeed this could kill console games, we may have the resurrection of the Nintendo Glove in either an iWatch or iGlove format. For this Apple Event, they will likely pass out passive 3D glasses. If any developers ever get a pair, I would love to have a set for my 3D glasses collection.

Apple is also as much about sound as it is on Video. One of the specs could be the ability to support not just 5.1, 7.1, but also 9.1, 11.1, or 13.1 audio (have a 9.2 Audio Surround System).

Last edited by Bheleu; Feb 18, 2013 at 05:20 PM.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 05:36 PM   #98
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Exactly.. That is so Steve Jobs... I agree the display is secondary... A game changer will be the box device... The display will come after..
I disagree with this, and this coming from someone who has a PS3, Xbox 360 and uses them both extensively. I think plowing all of the capability that these devices (along with Apple TV, iOS, OSX, etc) into one device that you just turn on and go is the key to everything, especially if it seamlessly integrates with the entire ecosystem. I think this will be the key to the mass consumer joe schmo (not the nerds here on MacRumors) and whether or not they adopt the technology. I think having a separate box will always limit this.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 07:10 PM   #99
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Really? Kinda forgetting the tens of millions that buy CoD and Battlefield each year. Not what any reasonable person could call a minority interest....

Perhaps I was a little flip when I said not that many people are "hardcore gamers". But while the numbers on this chart have changed since 2007, the scale really hasn't.

A product that primarily appeals to gamers is small potatoes. Sony and Microsoft know this as well, thats why they have desperately tried to sell their consoles as a media centers. That's why they have become more and more hostile to "hardcore" gamers with things like kinect. They want casual gamers. They want to expand this market.

When Apple TV stops being a hobby for Apple it will be aimed at a market way bigger than "the tens of millions who by CoD".
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 09:19 PM   #100
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This was before Siri so stop thinking that ho will help
Oh no he didunt!!
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