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Old Feb 16, 2013, 12:15 PM   #101
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Looks like your right....
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 12:20 PM   #102
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Drunk driving is illegal, yet people still do it. .
But people do it less. So making it illegal does help. And we catch people doing it, we can throw them in jail and get them off the streets. That old "well this is illegal and people still do it" argument is ridiculous. What's the answer then, nothing should be illegal cause some people will still do it. We make things illegal to cut down on it happening and to be able to punish those who still do it not because we think no one will even do that again, ever.

----------

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Looks like your right....
Why is Obamacare in that picture? It hasn't even fully kicked in yet and won't until 2014. Just any excuse to bash the devil, huh?

Last edited by dejo; Feb 16, 2013 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Fixed quote.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 01:08 PM   #103
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That old "well this is illegal and people still do it" argument is ridiculous. What's the answer then, nothing should be illegal cause some people will still do it.
Exactly.

All laws "punish" (a word gun advocates like to use) the law abiders by banning them from doing something while outlaws flaunt the law and do it anyway.

That's the way it's worked since laws began.

They act like gun restrictions invented that concept.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 01:09 PM   #104
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But people do it less. So making it illegal does help. And we catch people doing it, we can throw them in jail and get them off the streets. That old "well this is illegal and people still do it" argument is ridiculous. What's the answer then, nothing should be illegal cause some people will still do it. We make things illegal to cut down on it happening and to be able to punish those who still do it not because we think no one will even do that again, ever.

----------



Why is Obamacare in that picture? It hasn't even fully kicked in yet and won't until 2014. Just any excuse to bash the devil, huh?
Is it down ? Anyway, that's my point. Why are more useless gun laws (Useless gun law = any gun laws that only effect honest law abiding citizens), going to reduce violence ? You still haven't addressed the violence issue.

Likewise when you quoted me, you left out the part where I stated that alcohol is still legal. Yes drunk driving is illegal. Yes people get suspended licenses. Yet people still get another DUI charge while their license is suspended from a previous charge. You get people with the court ordered breathalyzer in their car asking others to blow in it for them. "Here, let me drive, I don't drink. No I am ok, then why the **** don't you blow into it yourself ?"

I know a lady that's doing 25 years, and I know a dude that's doing 50 (with no chance of parol), yet this still doesn't stop others that know them from driving drunk. What is the core issue of the self destructive behavior ?

Oh, if Obamacare is so great, why did Obama exclude himself from it ?



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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Exactly.

All laws "punish" (a word gun advocates like to use) the law abiders by banning them from doing something while outlaws flaunt the law and do it anyway.

That's the way it's worked since laws began.

They act like gun restrictions invented that concept.
No, not true. Would you mug someone ? Or rape your neighbor ? Anti-rape and mugging laws have no effect on me. We have these laws because there are people that do this crap, and there is something to use against them when they are brought before a judge.

Now, lets take (if I remember correctly) Ohio. A woman buys her husband cold medicine. In the same week, she buys her adult daughter cold medicine. (From the same store.) She has now gone over the limit. Two weeks later the Sheriff's office come by, knocks her door off the hinges, and raids her home. Of course she is not cooking meth, but is still hauled off to jail. No criminal intent even necessary. And of course crystal meth is still widely available on the street. The over the counter cold medicine laws are an example of laws that only effect law abiding citizens. Meth houses still have access to their supplies, and the honest citizen is restricted. Just like any gun laws other than the ones that violent law breakers and mentally ill should not be able to access weapons.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 02:28 PM   #105
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No, not true. Would you mug someone ? Or rape your neighbor ? Anti-rape and mugging laws have no effect on me. We have these laws because there are people that do this crap, and there is something to use against them when they are brought before a judge.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "[these] laws have no effect on me."

Could you please explain?

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The over the counter cold medicine laws are an example of laws that only effect law abiding citizens. Meth houses still have access to their supplies, and the honest citizen is restricted. Just like any gun laws other than the ones that violent law breakers and mentally ill should not be able to access weapons.
If over the counter cold medicine laws "only effect law abiding citizens" then I would expect two things ...

1. I would expect that only law abiding citizen have been arrested or prosecuted for breaking this law. I have a hard time believing that is true.

2. I would expect that the procurement of supplies necessary to cook meth are just as easy to obtain as purchasing a product in any store. Again, I have a hard time believing that is true.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 04:54 PM   #106
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I'm not sure what you mean by, "[these] laws have no effect on me."

Could you please explain?
Sure, NP. I am not a mugger, so if they change the sentencing from 5 years in prison to ten years in prison, or they add aggravated to the charges because a woman fell down and broke her arm while her purse was being snatched, how does that effect me ? It doesn't, until I go and snatch a purse or mug someone. I as a law abiding citizen do not fall under any anti-purse snatching or mugging laws until I snatch a purse, ie willfully commit a crime. Now I am a criminal and the law takes effect over me, as it was designed to. It keeps a criminal off the streets and may or may not make someone else think twice about committing that crime.

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If over the counter cold medicine laws "only effect law abiding citizens" then I would expect two things ...

1. I would expect that only law abiding citizen have been arrested or prosecuted for breaking this law. I have a hard time believing that is true.

2. I would expect that the procurement of supplies necessary to cook meth are just as easy to obtain as purchasing a product in any store. Again, I have a hard time believing that is true.
Fact is that someone was already wrongfully arrested. I don't know the outcome, hopefully the DA or the judge was sensible and let it go, but that doesn't change that fact that her home was raided and she was hauled off.

Fact is I don't have to be a meth manufactor to have this stupid law affect me. Fact is I all have to do is buy a pack of Sudafed for my adult daughter one day and a pack for my other adult daughter the next. I am not even a meth cook, and meth is still easily purchased on the streets. (Ok, I do see the point of it to a certain degree, it should be kept behind the counter, ask the pharmacist. That way when you are acting suspicious, the cops can be called. This is how two clowns that were working together in my state got busted. The pharmacist called the cops.)

We have a law that states felons can't possess a firearm. In Louisiana they can't even be in the same house as a felon. (I cannot be a felon and my wife possess a firearm, unless it is kept off premises and I do not ever have access to it. The it's mine not his doesn't work here, and I agree with that totally.) So if you pass a law limiting someone to say 100 rounds of ammo or even one gun purchase a month, who will that effect ?
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 05:04 PM   #107
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Is it down ? Anyway, that's my point. Why are more useless gun laws (Useless gun law = any gun laws that only effect honest law abiding citizens), going to reduce violence ? You still haven't addressed the violence issue.

Likewise when you quoted me, you left out the part where I stated that alcohol is still legal. Yes drunk driving is illegal. Yes people get suspended licenses. Yet people still get another DUI charge while their license is suspended from a previous charge. You get people with the court ordered breathalyzer in their car asking others to blow in it for them. "Here, let me drive, I don't drink. No I am ok, then why the **** don't you blow into it yourself ?"

I know a lady that's doing 25 years, and I know a dude that's doing 50 (with no chance of parol), yet this still doesn't stop others that know them from driving drunk. What is the core issue of the self destructive behavior ?
I'm not saying there are bad laws. I'm not saying the proposed gun laws are good or bad. I'm just saying I don't agree with any statement like "drunk driving is illegal but people do it". You missed my point. You can argue if a particular law is good or bad but to say let's not make any laws cause they don't work is silly.
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Oh, if Obamacare is so great, why did Obama exclude himself from it ?
I didn't know he did and I never said if it was good or bad.Again, you missed my point. Why was it in that poster if it hasn't been enacted yet? You're blaming obamacare for all the deaths listed in that poster....doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by MrWillie View Post

Now, lets take (if I remember correctly) Ohio. A woman buys her husband cold medicine. In the same week, she buys her adult daughter cold medicine. (From the same store.) She has now gone over the limit. Two weeks later the Sheriff's office come by, knocks her door off the hinges, and raids her home. Of course she is not cooking meth, but is still hauled off to jail. No criminal intent even necessary. And of course crystal meth is still widely available on the street. The over the counter cold medicine laws are an example of laws that only effect law abiding citizens. Meth houses still have access to their supplies, and the honest citizen is restricted. Just like any gun laws other than the ones that violent law breakers and mentally ill should not be able to access weapons.
Again, you don't know if just the honest citizen is restricted because how do you how many people want to buy more cold medicine to make meth but now can't. What a ridiculous thing to think you know. You don't know how many people don't drink and drive not because its dangerous but because they don't want to get caught.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 06:17 PM   #108
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Looks like your right....
(refer back to the previous Squadleader posting).

So, the problem with listing raw "deaths" is that it doesn't show how much someone's life span has been reduced. Normally, when looking at risks, one factors in the age of the person. Suboptimal healthcare for someone in their 80's might reduce their lifespan by a year. An elementary school child killed randomly is a much greater loss of years, as well as much more traumatic for everyone concerned. Just listing a number for deaths does a very poor job of measuring the societal cost of an something.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 08:56 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
(refer back to the previous Squadleader posting).

So, the problem with listing raw "deaths" is that it doesn't show how much someone's life span has been reduced. Normally, when looking at risks, one factors in the age of the person. Suboptimal healthcare for someone in their 80's might reduce their lifespan by a year. An elementary school child killed randomly is a much greater loss of years, as well as much more traumatic for everyone concerned. Just listing a number for deaths does a very poor job of measuring the societal cost of an something.
Not quite ...an elementary school child death is a tragedy and untimely, but an 80 year old blood is the same color....and no less a tragedy...To the left the societal cost is taxes that wont be paid...You guys are sick....
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 09:03 PM   #110
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Not quite ...an elementary school child death is a tragedy and untimely, but an 80 year old blood is the same color....and no less a tragedy...To the left the societal cost is taxes that wont be paid...You guys are sick....
Ask anyone who has both a child and a parent, which is a greater tragedy. The death of that child or their parent. Cruel to talk about? Maybe. But it's a no brainer. Of course the death of a child is a tragedy much greater than that of an elderly person.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 01:48 AM   #111
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It's the difference between an elderly person who has had the chance to lead a full life and a young person who never got that chance because somebody else cut it short.

Losing any relative is hard, but no parent wants to bury their child.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 02:58 AM   #112
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It's the difference between an elderly person who has had the chance to lead a full life and a young person who never got that chance because somebody else cut it short.

Losing any relative is hard, but no parent wants to bury their child.
+1

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Is it down ?
Quote:
In the United States, the number of drunk driving deaths has been cut in half since MADD was founded in 1980.
http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/ab...tatistics.html
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 03:35 AM   #113
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Oh, if Obamacare is so great, why did Obama exclude himself from it ?
By which I presume you mean that - just like everyone else in the US has the option to - Obama is keeping his current healthcare plan...
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 10:46 AM   #114
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....If you're trying to eliminate violence, eliminating firearms won't work. Firearms are just a tool. If you're trying to eliminate needless deaths, then you will save more lives by outlawing drunk driving, to save even more lives ban the private ownership of swimming pools. Hey, let's take it a step further, how many people die in the bathtub every year ?.......
Looks like cricket bats might be added to that assault weapon list ........

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.1266376
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 10:50 AM   #115
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Ask anyone who has both a child and a parent, which is a greater tragedy. The death of that child or their parent. Cruel to talk about? Maybe. But it's a no brainer. Of course the death of a child is a tragedy much greater than that of an elderly person.
woah woah woah woah wait just a second. Are you making the assertion that the number of years determines a person's life worth? Or that younger people are intrinsically more valuable than older people?
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:02 AM   #116
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woah woah woah woah wait just a second. Are you making the assertion that the number of years determines a person's life worth? Or that younger people are intrinsically more valuable than older people?
A 5 year old getting gunned down at school is more tragic than an 80 year old dying of natural causes. Period. Which is what the OP of this statement was saying.

I swear. Some people will argue about anything.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:11 AM   #117
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A 5 year old getting gunned down at school is more tragic than an 80 year old dying of natural causes. Period. Which is what the OP of this statement was saying.
Well I'm not sure. After looking at these comments:

Quote:
It's the difference between an elderly person who has had the chance to lead a full life and a young person who never got that chance because somebody else cut it short.

Losing any relative is hard, but no parent wants to bury their child.
Quote:
Ask anyone who has both a child and a parent, which is a greater tragedy. The death of that child or their parent. Cruel to talk about? Maybe. But it's a no brainer. Of course the death of a child is a tragedy much greater than that of an elderly person.
It's unclear to me if we're actually talking about the "tragicness" of the way you die, or the age and having lived your life.

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I swear. Some people will argue about anything.
Probably in the wrong forum if this is an issue. We're all here to debate and discuss issues.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:16 AM   #118
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The original post and Squadleader's response (squadleader also seemed to put words in the OP's mouth with regards to taxes, which were not mentioned in the post).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
(refer back to the previous Squadleader posting).

So, the problem with listing raw "deaths" is that it doesn't show how much someone's life span has been reduced. Normally, when looking at risks, one factors in the age of the person. Suboptimal healthcare for someone in their 80's might reduce their lifespan by a year. An elementary school child killed randomly is a much greater loss of years, as well as much more traumatic for everyone concerned. Just listing a number for deaths does a very poor job of measuring the societal cost of an something.
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Originally Posted by Squadleader View Post
Not quite ...an elementary school child death is a tragedy and untimely, but an 80 year old blood is the same color....and no less a tragedy...To the left the societal cost is taxes that wont be paid...You guys are sick....


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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Well I'm not sure. After looking at these comments:

It's unclear to me if we're actually talking about the "tragicness" of the way you die, or the age and having lived your life.


Probably in the wrong forum if this is an issue. We're all here to debate and discuss issues.
Oh please. I have no problem debating with someone who is debating their true beliefs, but you have a history of arguing for no other reason than to prove someone wrong. And frankly, you're not very good at it.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:22 AM   #119
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The original post and Squadleader's response (squadleader also seemed to put words in the OP's mouth with regards to taxes, which were not mentioned in the post).
ah, well see I saw that other subsequent replies, and was replying to the idea that either young or old were more or less valuable
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:27 AM   #120
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ah, well see I saw that other subsequent replies, and was replying to the idea that either young or old were more or less valuable
As with everything else, context (and comprehension) is key.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 11:39 AM   #121
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As with everything else, context (and comprehension) is key.
Yeah, it's unfortunate that many people can't comprehend some of these ideas, or miss the forest for the trees when discussing various issues.

It just leads to misunderstanding and bad logic
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 01:29 PM   #122
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Is it down ? Anyway, that's my point. Why are more useless gun laws (Useless gun law = any gun laws that only effect honest law abiding citizens), going to reduce violence ? You still haven't addressed the violence issue.
There is a major problem with your logic here in respects to "useless gun laws" meaning "any law that only effects law abiding citizens".

A lot of guns that are now owned illegally and could be used in a crime were originally legally purchased guns. If we would have restricted these in the past, there would be many less illegally owned guns on our streets now.

Quote:
Oh, if Obamacare is so great, why did Obama exclude himself from it ?
Well, your bias was obvious when you posted that graphic that tried to bash Obama even though the point it tried to make was completely unrelated to reality.

But, now with this statement, you just proved that you don't know or understand what you're talking about at all.

Do some research and learn what "Obamacare" actually is (a mandate that citizens purchase their own private health insurance) before you come here and try to bash the President with clearly incorrect information.


Quote:
Now, lets take (if I remember correctly) Ohio. A woman buys her husband cold medicine. In the same week, she buys her adult daughter cold medicine. (From the same store.) She has now gone over the limit. Two weeks later the Sheriff's office come by, knocks her door off the hinges, and raids her home. Of course she is not cooking meth, but is still hauled off to jail. No criminal intent even necessary. And of course crystal meth is still widely available on the street. The over the counter cold medicine laws are an example of laws that only effect law abiding citizens. Meth houses still have access to their supplies, and the honest citizen is restricted. Just like any gun laws other than the ones that violent law breakers and mentally ill should not be able to access weapons.
Again you're letting paranoia get in the way of facts and rational thinking.

First of all, the drug you are talking about here is pseudoephedrine, a decongestant that is used in some nasal and sinus decongestants (mostly Mucinex-type drugs), which is a key ingredient in methamphetamine manufacturing.

Most regular cold medicines don't have this drug.

When someone buys a medicine that has pseudoephedrine in it, the purchase is recorded in a computer system, so it doesn't matter if you buy it at the same store or not. But nobody is going to be raiding anyone's house because they bought two packs of Mucinex in a week. This system is in place to flag and prevent people from going in to every pharmacy within a reasonable drive of them, buying a couple packs of Mucinex, and then going home with 50+ packs and cooking up a batch of meth. They would just be denied purchase.

It's not in place to prevent some lady from buying her husband and her kid a pack of Mucinex each, and at no point would this law ever effect anyone who is using or purchasing pseudoephedrine for it's intended purchase.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 01:58 PM   #123
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Not quite ...an elementary school child death is a tragedy and untimely, but an 80 year old blood is the same color....and no less a tragedy...To the left the societal cost is taxes that wont be paid...You guys are sick....
Squadleader, I don't know where you have been, but, for at least the last 50 years, everybody from insurance companies:

http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html

to the Surgeon General to (nowadays) thousands of health-related websites are always telling people how many years, on average, various risks they take ("lifestyle", as in, say, skydiving) or have ("genetic predisposition to diabetes") will reduce their life expectancy. In all that time, I think you are the first person that I can recall who has referred to this as "sick".

----

In either this, or a related, thread, there was a reference to a recent report showing how firearms affect U.S. life expectancy relative to other countries. That is a statistical question. Is it "sick" that people have recorded and studied those statistics?

----

Regarding the "extra" value of children, you can find it in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, in Shakespeare, and in your daily newspaper (including Israeli and Palestinian for that matter). If you think that is "sick", then, I guess you disagree with practically the entire planet.

----

But, actually, it is likely you don't actually have a problem with any of these topics per se, and it is likely that you don't consider such discussions "sick" in other contexts. You likely just can't stand any rational discussion of the social cost of firearms, because of where the rational discussion invariably and inevitably leads. Am I right, sir?
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:03 PM   #124
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Squadleader, I don't know where you have been, but, for at least the last 50 years, everybody from insurance companies:

http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html

to the Surgeon General to (nowadays) thousands of health-related websites are always telling people how many years, on average, various risks they take ("lifestyle", as in, say, skydiving) or have ("genetic predisposition to diabetes") will reduce their life expectancy. In all that time, I think you are the first person that I can recall who has referred to this as "sick".
Maybe we should ban those activities, since they make you more likely to die younger.

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Regarding the "extra" value of children, you can find it in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, in Shakespeare, and in your daily newspaper (including Israeli and Palestinian for that matter). If you think that is "sick", then, I guess you disagree with practically the entire planet.
Well it's a lot easier to feel sympathy for a young, innocent child than it is some old man

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But, actually, it is likely you don't actually have a problem with any of these topics per se, and it is likely that you don't consider such discussions "sick" in other contexts. You likely just can't stand any rational discussion of the social cost of firearms, because of where the rational discussion invariably and inevitably leads. Am I right, sir?
Can't speak for the OP that you're quoting, but here's a question for you. What's more valuable? A child, or a 24 year old engineering student, and why?
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:49 PM   #125
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Maybe we should ban those activities, since they make you more likely to die younger.
How long are you going to keep making these horrible comparisons in the gun threads?

When will you realize that people want guns restricted or banned because they can hurt or kill people who have no connection whatsoever to the person with the gun? (Like kids just going to school to learn or a girl just going to a bus shelter because it's cold out)

That's the difference between guns and the comparison you tried to make with skydiving.

Yeah, sky diving is dangerous. So is doing a double backflip on a dirtbike in the XGames. So is football. And many other activities that people choose to participate in. Anyone who decides to participate in these types of activities does it willfully and they do it knowing that there's a possibility they could be seriously injured or killed doing these types of activities. Some businesses that run activities like this even make you sign waivers absolving them of any liabilities if you do get hurt or killed.

Those 20 kids didn't go to Sandy Hook school on December 14th going in to an activity where they knew there was a possibility of getting killed. They were just going to school.

The girl who performed at the inauguration who got shot in a bus shelter a few blocks from her school was just going in to a bus shelter to take cover from the elements, she wasn't going in to some extreme activity that could result in injury or death.


If you can't see the difference here and are just going to continue to make bad and fallacious comparions there is no point in even debating with you. The only time your comparison could even hold any water whatsoever is if a person was using a gun solely to put a bullet in their own head. Go for it then. I'm not trying to legislate against people willfully killing themselves.
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