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Old Feb 20, 2013, 12:41 PM   #301
milo
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Originally Posted by Carouser View Post
My position is more believable than...
Your position is your opinion. And saying it's more believable than those that disagree with you doesn't make it so. Nor does presenting the other side in a way that tries to make it sound stupid bolster your position.

None of us know the real reason why Apple has waited so long to update. And just because Apple is a billion dollar company doesn't mean they can't and don't make bad decisions. We see evidence of that all the time.

We are all just speculating. Your opinion has no more evidence than mine does, and I don't find "but they're a billion dollar company, so they must be smarter than anyone else" compelling.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 12:51 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
You didn't really look did you? There are no Mac pro's with i7 2700K's
Yes, I did look. I'm saying that even though you might think it's easy to get a Hackintosh scoring 15,000+, I personally still am impressed that I could for only 1,000. I'm completely new to the custom PC/Hackintosh community and maybe there is still a novelty, but I was running a MacBook Pro scoring 8-9,000 before that...
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 01:01 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by milo View Post
Your position is your opinion. And saying it's more believable than those that disagree with you doesn't make it so. Nor does presenting the other side in a way that tries to make it sound stupid bolster your position.

None of us know the real reason why Apple has waited so long to update. And just because Apple is a billion dollar company doesn't mean they can't and don't make bad decisions. We see evidence of that all the time.

We are all just speculating. Your opinion has no more evidence than mine does, and I don't find "but they're a billion dollar company, so they must be smarter than anyone else" compelling.
Wwwoohhhoooooo THAT has to be one of THE best posts I've read on here in a very long time! Kudos to you sir. Such a VERY true post.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 01:05 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by niclet View Post
You're right. But I have a different story since I had to upgrade my studio's Mac Pro and no new MP was expected, I turn myself toward a MacBook Pro 15" i7 (the MBP9,1 - not the retina's) and give it a try. For the PCI card problem - (I run Soundscape hardware with a Madiextreme PCI sound card) - I tried a couple of solutions and finally went to Sonnet's EchoExpress Pro PCIe to Thunderbolt chassis. (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/th...olt/index.html). From these devices, I hooked up my monitor on the same Thunderbolt chain. All HDD are chained under the FireWire 800 port in an external 4 trays tower. All I can say it's "wow!". It work perfectly, no lag in session recordings, and it's a very quiet setup that doesn't heat as my old Mac Pro.

So, I don't know, even in a professionnal context, I think things had changed and in the end, it didn't amputated my workflow.
Good for you, that audio has so much less information than video.
Like I said here:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...&postcount=174
$600 per pci slot isn't very affordable.

Think if you'd need 3 pci cards with your MBP.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by champ01 View Post
Because the iMac makes noise.
Because the iMac is impossible to repair
Because the iMac is impossible to upgrade
Because the iMac is just a consumer product (nothing pro about it)


Should I continue?
Because the iMac has DOUBLEglossy screen.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 01:34 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Rampage Dev View Post
I have a Corsair 800D. No I am a not a member at Overclcok.net but I am big in the Hacintosh community. Installing Mac on a PC when you purchase the appropriate components such as intel based and a supported GPU you can install Mac in less then a hour and be up and running 100% with no issues.
You have built a very nice machine. I am doing some reading on your site. Lots to be learned there. Excellent overclock too, that's why I thought you might be a member at Overclock.net. Or one of the other OC forums.

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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
I am, are you?
I am too. It's a good site with lots of great info and people.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 01:44 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Sue De Nimes View Post
If a regulation was introduced into the US banning the use of high fructose corn syrup would you support Coke being able to "grandfather in" on account of being an existing product?

When regulations change they change for a reason - companies don't get to ignore them because they are already at market.
Can we please ban High Fructose Corn Syrurp soon please

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIDI_EVIL View Post
Yes, I did look. I'm saying that even though you might think it's easy to get a Hackintosh scoring 15,000+, I personally still am impressed that I could for only 1,000. I'm completely new to the custom PC/Hackintosh community and maybe there is still a novelty, but I was running a MacBook Pro scoring 8-9,000 before that...
I really don't believe you especially when you say;

"Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense to your Mac Pro."

I'm not impressed that you could get a GB of 15K when a 3770 should be at 13K without fun.

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Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
You have built a very nice machine. I am doing some reading on your site. Lots to be learned there. Excellent overclock too, that's why I thought you might be a member at Overclock.net. Or one of the other OC forums.



I am too. It's a good site with lots of great info and people.
I agree and it's good to leave the echo chamber that is Mac Rumors.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 01:51 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
Can we please ban High Fructose Corn Syrurp soon please



I really don't believe you especially when you say;

"Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offense to your Mac Pro."

I'm not impressed that you could get a GB of 15K when a 3770 should be at 13K without fun.

----------



I agree and it's good to leave the echo chamber that is Mac Rumors.
Help me get it above 15,000 then! Show me how it's possible...!
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 01:52 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

I agree and it's good to leave the echo chamber that is Mac Rumors.
It can be entertaining here at times. But in all fairness, there are a lot of good people here and some very intelligent ones at that.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 02:05 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by MIDI_EVIL View Post
Help me get it above 15,000 then! Show me how it's possible...!
My first recommendation is join overclock.net there are many smart folks there.

At 4.2/4.3 Ghz you should brake 15K. When I talk about OC I mean turbo and turbo only. There is no need to be at your OC all the time.

the how is dependent on the CPU change the turbo to 4.2 with no changes, run prime 95 for 8-12 hours to make sure nothing silly happens and keep an eye on voltage. I don't remember what safe Ivy Voltage is but you shouldn't break it with auto. If thats still not fast enough bump 100Mhz at a time and .05V at a time until you have achieved what you looking for. When you find what you think is stable run prime 95 for a 8 to 12 hrs. When you are where you want to be clock speed wise run Prime 95 for 24hrs or so. if you're stable without errors after that you're good to go.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
It can be entertaining here at times. But in all fairness, there are a lot of good people here and some very intelligent ones at that.
I don't disagree, but it seems overwhelmed buy the kids with no clue..OTOH Overclock has an irrational hate for Mac's. I can over look genuine emotion, but not clueless kids
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 02:07 PM   #310
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Since the Mac Pro is no longer for sell in the EU can someone explain to me why Apple still shows the Mac Pro and a price ? I mean since it's no longer for sale why even have it on the store.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 02:14 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
$600 per pci slot isn't very affordable.
Actually, Echo Express Pro and Echo Express II provides two PCI slots each, which gives us half the price for each slots. So, yes I thinks it's affordable. This said, you're damn' right that audio studio doesn't need the horsepower as for movie or 3D. Rendering time is very demanding and nothing worth a Mac Pro in the Apple product line for this job.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 02:21 PM   #312
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This said, you're damn' right that audio studio doesn't need the horsepower as for movie or 3D.
Not really a valid comparison. Obviously rendering graphics takes a ton of power, but in the case of audio, real time performance is needed. Audio can be extremely demanding, whether it's plugins or streaming huge sample libraries, and those bits are needed immediately. In the case of a render it takes longer, but in the case of audio, if the machine isn't fast enough the track simply won't play. There are lots of audio guys who have had to hook up multiple computers because they're exceeding what a single machine is capable of (which is where a MP upgrade would be useful).
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 02:58 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by flat five View Post
maybe they'll be modular.. that way, i can start with the base then add my own modules as i see fit.. then i can call it a rig
; )
And hopefully if it is modular, it will use native I/O instead of putting the modules on the T-Bolt daisy-chain bottleneck.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 02:58 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
You have built a very nice machine. I am doing some reading on your site. Lots to be learned there. Excellent overclock too, that's why I thought you might be a member at Overclock.net. Or one of the other OC forums.
I was able to OC with very little work. I fine tune as I go as well and in windows it runs at 4.75 GHz since there is no turbo mode under Mac OS X for x79 yet. Yes there is a lot to learn but my guides are clear and precise.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 03:09 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Carouser View Post
I don't see how this squares with the recognition that resources should be allocated where they make the maximum return (all other things being equal). If the Pro just needs a spec bump and can make a better return on inputs than if those inputs went elsewhere, sure, Apple should go for it - I just think this needs to be demonstrated, rather than assumed as true or illustrated via anecdote.



Not sure what you think I don't understand about the halo effect. I never said there definitely wasn't one, so if that wasn't clear, there you go.

To elaborate, other posters haven't shown that the Mac Pro is sufficiently profitable (it might be, it might not). When someone suggests it simply might not be worth it for Apple, the response is often "but there's a halo effect! people will buy other Apple products and tell their friends and having a Big Deal Pro Computer will make Apple more appealing as a brand." This argument doesn't actually prove (or even argue compellingly through evidence) that a new Mac Pro has such an effect; that the effect is of a significant size; and it ignores that everything Apple makes has such an effect, so when Apple is deciding what warrants investment, the Pro doesn't necessarily have any kind of advantage on this basis.
If Apple abandons the high end and only makes low end trash, more makers of professional software will build for Linux. This will not only drive professionals away from Apple, it will also drive the prosumer and eventually the basic consumer to Linux or non Apple BSD.

One of the most important rules of marketing, don't drive the trend setters and the innovators to your competition.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 03:34 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Ralf The Dog View Post
If Apple abandons the high end and only makes low end trash, more makers of professional software will build for Linux. This will not only drive professionals away from Apple, it will also drive the prosumer and eventually the basic consumer to Linux or non Apple BSD.
No. They won't build for Linux, unfortunately. What'll happen is...well...what's already happened. Most of the hardcore Mac Pro fans have jumped ship for high end Windows workstations.

Quote:
One of the most important rules of marketing, don't drive the trend setters and the innovators to your competition.
This is the biggest problem Apple's facing in the Professional market right now. They've waited so long, kept so quiet, about any updates to the Pro line, most people assumed they've abandoned them, and have already moved on. Even if they were to release the most bad ass, awesome Mac Pro tomorrow, it'd be too late for them to sell in large numbers right at release, cuz all the people who wanted that new, bad ass, awesome Mac Pro have already dropped 5+ grand buying the other company's product.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 04:22 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by barkmonster View Post
And how many of those would have the same mess of wires and exposed fan blades inside as a self-built system? Probably most of them I'm guessing.
Um, yes, what's your point?
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 05:56 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Rampage Dev View Post
Here is my x79 hack:

http://rampagedev.wordpress.com/about/main-rig/

I use it every day and geekbench is around 15500.
Thanks for the link...Impressive. I've been thinking about building one myself.
What about software updates? Any problems keeping up with the latest system software?
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 06:33 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
No. They won't build for Linux, unfortunately. What'll happen is...well...what's already happened. Most of the hardcore Mac Pro fans have jumped ship for high end Windows workstations.

This is the biggest problem Apple's facing in the Professional market right now. They've waited so long, kept so quiet, about any updates to the Pro line, most people assumed they've abandoned them, and have already moved on. Even if they were to release the most bad ass, awesome Mac Pro tomorrow, it'd be too late for them to sell in large numbers right at release, cuz all the people who wanted that new, bad ass, awesome Mac Pro have already dropped 5+ grand buying the other company's product.
Could "the other companies product" have?
  • 16 cores (32 threads) of Xeon CPU
  • 512 GB, 8-channel ECC DDR3 1600 MHz
  • up to 8 SATA/SAS channels
  • up to 15 TB of internal disk
  • Blu-ray writer
  • 3 PCIe Gen3 x16 slots
  • 1 PCIe Gen3 slot (x16 physical/x8 electrical)
  • 1 PCIe Gen3 slot (x8 physical/x4 electrical)
  • 1 PCIe Gen2 slot (x8 physical/x4 electrical)
  • a *choice* of GPUs (NVIDIA NVS 310, NVIDIA NVS 300, NVIDIA NVS 510, NVIDIA Quadro 410, ATI FirePro™ V3900, NVIDIA Quadro 600, ATI FirePro™ V4900, NVIDIA Quadro 2000, AMD FirePro™ V5900, NVIDIA Quadro 4000, AMD FirePro™ V7900, NVIDIA Quadro 5000, NVIDIA Quadro 6000, NVIDIA Tesla C207514,NVIDIA Quadro K5000)
  • two GbE NICs standard, two more optional
  • four USB 3.0 ports, five USB 2.0 ports, two 1394 ports
  • six USB 2.0 ports internal

'Cuz that's an off-the-shelf Z820.... http://www.hp.com/united-states/camp..._features.html
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 06:34 PM   #320
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Thanks for the link...Impressive. I've been thinking about building one myself.
What about software updates? Any problems keeping up with the latest system software?
Im on 10.8.3 12D68 and that should say it all.

No issue on keeping up to the latest versions of any software. Most issues people have are installing to many kext trying to get there hardware running and not understanding what they do. Ran 10.7.x up to now with no issues.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 06:34 PM   #321
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Not really a valid comparison. Obviously rendering graphics takes a ton of power, but in the case of audio, real time performance is needed. Audio can be extremely demanding, whether it's plugins or streaming huge sample libraries, and those bits are needed immediately. In the case of a render it takes longer, but in the case of audio, if the machine isn't fast enough the track simply won't play. There are lots of audio guys who have had to hook up multiple computers because they're exceeding what a single machine is capable of (which is where a MP upgrade would be useful).
Yes, but with good hardware, I mean high-end pro converters and interface, things are smoother and latency is low. But, again, I can't contradict you, high performance Mac Pro are welcome in sound recording. I'm really curious about the next gen of MP. In fact, I'm waiting for them for a long time now.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 06:55 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
Could "the other companies product" have?

SPEC SHEET

'Cuz that's an off-the-shelf Z820.... http://www.hp.com/united-states/camp..._features.html
Yup. The point I'm trying to make is that the people who bought one of those machines won't be buying a new, updated Mac Pro when (if) it comes out. Why? Because they've already got something that's likely just as good.

It's funny thinking that just three years ago, Apple was practically a staple of the movie industry. Most everyone was doing all their movie work in Final Cut on a Mac Pro. Now? Just about everyone in that ever loyal, spend happy niche has dropped support for Apple entirely. Chances are good no one in the industry is gonna be editing their new 4k video shoots on Final Cut X. Nope. They're gonna be happily doing it all on HPs and Dells running Windows.

Apple pissed away their advantage in the pro market by not doing anything at all. It'll take them a good long while to rebuild that trust. Provided they even try.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 07:38 PM   #323
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Apple pissed away their advantage in the pro market by not doing anything at all. It'll take them a good long while to rebuild that trust. Provided they even try.
Don't get your hopes up, not with MBA Tim running the show.

MBAs don't understand the "halo effect" of high end users on the platform, nor the idea of a "flagship system" that will help sell consumer all-in-ones.

The bean counters will kill the Mac Pro line today because its margins and sales are too low. Then they'll kill the Mini Mac because it doesn't have the ROI of the Imac.

And then they'll see that Imac sales are falling, and ax those.


Death spiral....
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 09:30 PM   #324
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You could do that with an iMac and a Thunderbolt enclosure. When (if) I get an iMac, that'd be one of the first things I'd do. Get the enclosure and 3 drives, one for the OS, one for random guff stuff, and one as a back up clone. If anything ever goes wrong with the OS drive, all I'd have to do is pop the old OS drive out, and pop the clone in. Same situation, about the same solution.
Definitely an interesting option. Although, I was looking for thunderbolt drive enclosures that aren't ridiculously expensive and they seem hard to come by. Lots of options for USB 3 though.
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Old Feb 20, 2013, 09:37 PM   #325
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This is the biggest problem Apple's facing in the Professional market right now. They've waited so long, kept so quiet, about any updates to the Pro line, most people assumed they've abandoned them, and have already moved on. Even if they were to release the most bad ass, awesome Mac Pro tomorrow, it'd be too late for them to sell in large numbers right at release, cuz all the people who wanted that new, bad ass, awesome Mac Pro have already dropped 5+ grand buying the other company's product.
not entirely convinced on that train of thought..
the current macpros are awesome computers.. they're plenty capable of doing any of the work possible with today's software.. i mean, what situation is someone sitting around going 'fk, i really need to do this but my computer can't handle it" (computer meaning the actual hardware.. not the software)..
people that really really need the power are getting in a means that no one should be expecting from a workstation (ie render farms etc).. but they can still drive it from a current macpro and be totally fine..

but if we're talking straight up working efficiency (actually putting in a days work on a computer as opposed to trying to figure out how fast it is), the major bottlenecks have nothing really to do with the computer itself (granted you have something modern and capable).. the major bottlenecks are in the software.. and/or how we interact with it..

some things are incredibly fast to accomplish on a computer.. but other things-- its a bit convoluted of a process to get an idea from our brains onto the computer and into something more tangible.. the mouse needs to die.. our hands are arguably the most well designed and versatile parts of our bodies.. one of the cooler designs on our whole planet even.. but when talking to our computers, we get a couple of fingers worth of stale movement and a little wrist action.. then have a flat panel beaming back at us.. that's basically it..
(well, typing is different.. we are capable of using all our fingers.. but it's an ok example of how learning type with ten fingers > chicken pecking)

and people are always complaining that osx is turning into ios etc as if it's a bad thing.. i mean, some of the ios stuff is exactly the direction we need to be going in if the end goal is to increase productivity and leisure time.. pros probably stand to benefit the most out all the consumers because not only will they be able to experience the fun(wheeee) of messing around with the gadgets, they'll also be able to work in more productive manners..

dunno, i'm a designer/builder.. which translates to me building every project twice.. i get to draw it on a computer first-- working out all the details, experimenting, acquire necessary confidence for construction phase, sort out assembly etc.. and some of the things which you can do on the computer absolutely blows away what's possible on paper etc alone.. (pay attention to some of the modern architecture.. it's only possible because of computers.. computers are the key ingredient in making it real)

but then, i shift gears and i'm now physically constructing.. some of the stuff on site is way faster -or- way more natural to me than how the same task needs to be accomplished during the virtual building.. if there's some sawdust in my way, i just brush it off in a halfsecond without much thought.. moving the scraps around on the computer though is click,move,peck,peck,<return> or whatever.. it just took me 20 times longer to do on the computer.. gestures is actually working towards this type of solution.. but then a computer can much more easily move a 20 ton block of concrete 50 feet away but it should still be able to do it 20x faster than current.. but it can't because we have a serious communication breakdown between it and us..
[and this analogy isn't optimized i agree.. just the first way i tried to talk about it]


look.. i get it.. it's fun or at least stimulating to sit around and shoot the sht about computer tech etc.. but there comes a point when the line needs to be drawn/recognized/admitted to that what many of the arguments around here regarding 'pros' actually don't have much to do with the daytoday working pro at all..
if we're talking pro users and what type of improvements are necessary in order to better optimize their efficiency on the job.. hardware performance ranks fairly low on that scale i imagine.. i mean, do you really think it matters if someone shaves 5 minutes off their work day because they have some crazy rig that geekbenches 40k? especially when compared to ,say, accomplishing something on the computer in 4 hrs instead of 8 simply because the two of you interacted better?


we need to be able to take much better advantage of what a computer offers us.. or, another way.. the computer needs to be able to take much better advantage of us..

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