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Old Feb 22, 2013, 01:42 PM   #51
xShane
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
The duty of the government doesn't include those things.
Oh really?

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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
- Constitution of the United States.

Welfare: The health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 01:46 PM   #52
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Oh really?

- Constitution of the United States.

Welfare: The health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group.
It makes me really happy to own a bazooka

The government doesn't allow me to own a bazooka

The government isn't promoting general welfare
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 01:51 PM   #53
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It makes me really happy to own a bazooka

The government doesn't allow me to own a bazooka

The government isn't promoting general welfare
Why can you not own a bazooka?

Also, the government "isn't" promoting general welfare is another topic. You said "it isn't the duty of the government to provide those things", when it actually is. That's one of the reasons the Constitution was created.

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To be fair, those harsh economic conditions are a lot better than subsistence farming.
That doesn't make it right.

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Why not?
Unless the Constitution is amended, which is very unlikely to happen, firearms won't be banned.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 01:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
It makes me really happy to own a bazooka

The government doesn't allow me to own a bazooka

The government isn't promoting general welfare
Your individual happiness is not the same thing as promoting general welfare.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 02:00 PM   #55
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Your individual happiness is not the same thing as promoting general welfare.
That's the great thing about the Constitution, it's up to interpretation. I say it is promoting the general welfare of the country for the citizens to be happy with bazookas.

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Why can you not own a bazooka?
no idea

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Originally Posted by xShane View Post
Also, the government "isn't" promoting general welfare is another topic. You said "it isn't the duty of the government to provide those things", when it actually is. That's one of the reasons the Constitution was created.
sure. and then you said it was to promote the general welfare, well, so is owning a bazooka.

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That doesn't make it right.
Well actually it probably does. The alternative is simply those jobs don't exist.

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Unless the Constitution is amended, which is very unlikely to happen, firearms won't be banned.
Hmm

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Second, true civilian weapons won't be banned. Assault rifles are not civilian weapons; those are weapons intended for the military (i.e. "assault").
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Originally Posted by eric/
Like pistols? Or bolt action rifles and shotguns?
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Pistols and shotguns won't be banned.
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Originally Posted by eric/
Why not?
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Originally Posted by xShane View Post
Unless the Constitution is amended, which is very unlikely to happen, firearms won't be banned.
I guess I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. Pistols and shotguns are intended for military use, but they won't be banned because assault rifles aren't civilian weapons because the Constitution won't be amended?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 02:03 PM   #56
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That's the great thing about the Constitution, it's up to interpretation. I say it is promoting the general welfare of the country for the citizens to be happy with bazookas.
But does the general population want bazookas? No. In fact, it would be promoting violence, which would NOT be promoting health.

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I guess I'm confused about what you're trying to say here. Pistols and shotguns are intended for military use, but they won't be banned because assault rifles aren't civilian weapons because the Constitution won't be amended?
That's the great thing about the Constitution -- it's up for interpretation. Which types of firearms was the Constitution referring to when it was created? I meant firearms in general won't be banned. Some will, but there will always be certain types of firearms that civilians can purchase. The Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution in such a way as to be relevant in future times. Well, the times have changed. Do *ALL* firearms still apply?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 02:06 PM   #57
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But does the general population want bazookas? No.
Sure. who doesn't want a bazooka?
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In fact, it would be promoting violence, which would NOT be promoting health.
It would be promoting happiness, which helps people be healthy.

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That's the great thing about the Constitution -- it's up for interpretation. Which types of firearms was the Constitution referring to when it was created? I meant firearms in general won't be banned.
That wasn't the point of that comment

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Some will, but there will always be certain types of firearms that civilians can purchase. The Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution in such a way as to be relevant in future times. Well, the times have changed. Do *ALL* firearms still apply?
But you said that weapons intended for military use would be banned, but then went on to say they wouldn't be banned.

So which is it?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 02:09 PM   #58
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But you said that weapons intended for military use would be banned, but then went on to say they wouldn't be banned.

So which is it?
All firearms will *NOT* be banned as the Bill of Rights allows for people to bear arms. The question is, is *which* kind of firearms was the Bill of Rights referring to? The Founding Fathers left that for us to decide and they knew times would change, and so would technology, advancements, and of course, weapons.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 02:13 PM   #59
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Not all firearms will *NOT* be banned as the Bill of Rights allows for people to bear arms. The question is, is *which* kind?
-edit-

Actually i think we've gotten off topic. So nvm.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 02:20 PM   #60
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Ok so which kind and why?

Real quick:

FBI homicide stats:

Handguns 6,220
Shotguns 356
Rifles (including hunting rifles and assault rifles) 323
"Ok so which kind and why?" That's the whole debate going on in real life if you didn't know. Obviously one of the main kinds being targeted are assault rifles.

Total gun deaths from 2011: 32,163.

Source: Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control Prevention, and Division of Vital Statistics. Click here.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:06 PM   #61
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Aren't you essentially proving his point. It sounds plausible that a wealthy citizen could have all of these assets. However the vast cost and amount of loops you would have to jump through are very large and inhibits your average joe from acquiring them. While he made no mention of storage and transportation, his point was that with enough money and the proper paperwork you could own one.
His comment made specific reference to RPG's, which you cannot purchase as an "average joe." Can you buy an inert tube or trainer? Sure you can. But, they are just that, a trainer.


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If you point me somewhere that says only military and law enforcement are the only ones legally allowed to own these in the US I would change my stance and agree with you.
Can you show me a source where an "average joe" can purchase one?

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Source? Where does it say I can't buy them?
It doesn't say you can't own them. Do you have a source where one could purchase one?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:29 PM   #62
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His comment made specific reference to RPG's, which you cannot purchase as an "average joe." Can you buy an inert tube or trainer? Sure you can. But, they are just that, a trainer.




Can you show me a source where an "average joe" can purchase one?

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It doesn't say you can't own them. Do you have a source where one could purchase one?
"Cannot be purchased by an average Joes". Again, my point.

Federal law allows destructive devices.

26 USC Section 5845 defines a Destructive Device.

The ATF says you must register your Destructive Device(s), including bazookas.

The linked page also includes further information on how to obtain one.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:30 PM   #63
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Can you show me a source where an "average joe" can purchase one?
Why are you adding a qualifier all of a sudden?

Wasn't the discussion whether or not non-military personnel or LEO could purchase them? Your answer proved his point.

Move on....
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:38 PM   #64
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Why are you adding a qualifier all of a sudden?

Wasn't the discussion whether or not non-military personnel or LEO could purchase them? Your answer proved his point.

Move on....
Not at all.

Move on...

----------

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Originally Posted by xShane View Post
"Cannot be purchased by an average Joes". Again, my point.


Federal law allows destructive devices.

26 USC Section 5845 defines a Destructive Device.

The ATF says you must register your Destructive Device(s), including bazookas.

The linked page also includes further information on how to obtain one.
I am quite familiar with what constitutes a destructive device.

My reference to "average joe" was in response to TheHateMachine.

I asked you

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Quote:
Originally Posted by webbuzz
So, you think anyone can buy an RPG or 40mm grenade?
And you replied.

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Yes.
My question remains. Can you tell me where one can purchase an RPG or grenade?

Last edited by webbuzz; Feb 22, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:40 PM   #65
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Not at all.

Move on...

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I am quite familiar with what constitutes a destructive device.

My reference to "average joe" was in response to TheHateMachine.

My question remains. Can you tell me where one can purchase an RPG or grenade?
No, because that's beyond the scope of this discussion. I'm not interested in finding out which manufactures produce and sell RPGs. My point though, is that they're hard to obtain and well regulated (strictly and tightly). If only all firearms were like so...
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:44 PM   #66
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:48 PM   #67
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No, because that's beyond the scope of this discussion. I'm not interested in finding out which manufactures produce and sell RPGs. My point though, is that they're hard to obtain and well regulated (strictly and tightly). If only all firearms were like so...
Because you cannot buy them.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:54 PM   #68
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Because you cannot buy them.
Source? Show me a legitimate source that says you cannot buy them.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 03:55 PM   #69
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Source? Show me a legitimate source that says you cannot buy them.
Here is a thread for you to read
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1544401

If you can find a dealer or manufacturer that would willingly sell to you.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 04:01 PM   #70
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Here is a thread for you to read
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1544401

If you can find a dealer or manufacturer that would willingly sell to you.
That's not my problem. Google "bazooka for sale" or "destructive devices for sale" and I get tons of hits.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 04:05 PM   #71
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That's not my problem.
It isn't a problem. Since they are impossible to obtain.

At least you didn't respond with your reddit meme.... It is still early though.

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That's not my problem. Google "bazooka for sale" or "destructive devices for sale" and I get tons of hits.
Practice rounds... Next
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 04:06 PM   #72
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It isn't a problem. Since they are impossible to obtain.

At least you didn't respond with your reddit meme.... It is still early though.

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Practice rounds... Next
They aren't impossible to obtain. Is this what you choose to believe as you turn your head the other way? If someone really wanted to get one, they can get one. That's how it should be with all firearms.

I'm sure if firearms were as hard to obtain as destructive devices, we wouldn't have so much violence as we do now.

EDIT: You do 30 seconds of Google searching and claim them to be impossible to obtain. Sounds logical.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 04:13 PM   #73
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They aren't impossible to obtain. Is this what you choose to believe as you turn your head the other way?
Bazookas are not in use today. If you find a "bazooka" it is from WWII, Korean War or Viet Nam eras.

No, they are not impossible to obtain, if you are military or law enforcement.

I am not turning my head the other way.

Quote:
If someone really wanted to get one, they can get one.
Show me where.

Quote:
That's how it should be with all firearms.
You can have your opinion.

Quote:
I'm sure if firearms were as hard to obtain as destructive devices, we wouldn't have so much violence as we do now.
Maybe, maybe not.

----------

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EDIT: You do 30 seconds of Google searching and claim them to be impossible to obtain. Sounds logical.
Maybe I understand what it takes to legally obtain such items?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 04:21 PM   #74
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Bazookas are not in use today. If you find a "bazooka" it is from WWII, Korean War or Viet Nam eras.

No, they are not impossible to obtain, if you are military or law enforcement.

I am not turning my head the other way.



Show me where.



You can have your opinion.



Maybe, maybe not.

----------



Maybe I understand what it takes to legally obtain such items?
RPGs, bazookas, and other destructive devices are hard to obtain. Please tell me how many destructive devices you see being used in crimes and deaths in the United States?

Military and law enforcement are not the only ones that can obtain them. Civilians can too.

Stop making pointless claims. They're hard obviously hard to obtain, hence there's not that many of them in the hands of the public. Are you trying to combat my argument with the fact that they're hard to obtain? I don't understand your "logic" (that might be giving you too much credit) here.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 04:28 PM   #75
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RPGs, bazookas, and other destructive devices are hard to obtain. Please tell me how many destructive devices you see being used in crimes and deaths in the United States?
I do not have a source. My answer would be none.

Quote:
Military and law enforcement are not the only ones that can obtain them. Civilians can too.
I guess I have to believe you then.

Quote:
Stop making pointless claims. They're hard obviously hard to obtain, hence there's not that many of them in the hands of the public. Are you trying to combat my argument with the fact that they're hard to obtain?
Pointless claims? You said that I can buy an RPG, show me where.

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I don't understand your "logic" (that might be giving you too much credit) here.
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