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Old Feb 21, 2013, 02:53 PM   #151
Mago
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A lot of Deceit here arguin to favor Apple's only Interest: Control The Money Arround they products.

Biggest Deceit QUALITY AND RELIABILITY: Ligtning is *better* than Micro-USB, Reality: Lithning SUCKS as a POOR MICRO USB, Best Micro-USB Proucts are by Far MORE RELIABLE THAN APPLE's ORIGINAL LIGTHNING, LOTS OF IPHONE5, IPADS GET DAMAGED WHEN IT LIGHNING CONNECTOR BROKES, IT MAY BROKE THE CONNECTOR INSIDE THE iDEVICE OR THE CABLE's CONNECTOR BROKE OR SHORTCUT DUE FATIGUE OR WEAK IMPACT PROTECTION.

SECOND LESS IMPORTANT DECEIT: *FEATURES*: the Old 30 Pin Connector featured Many LEGACY SIGNALS As ANALOG VIDEO, ANALOG SEEK CONTROL ETC, MOST OF THESE NOW ARE NOT IN LIGTHNING, ACTUALLY LIGTNING DONT DOES ANYTHING THAT MICROUSB DIDNT DO (AND BETTER) YEARS AGO:
Code:
FEATURE               LIGHTNING  MICROUSB
====================  =========  ========
POWER                    YES        YES
USB2.0 DATA              YES        YES
DIGITAL VIDEO            YES*       YES**
DIGITAL AUDIO***         YES        YES 
ANALOG AUDIO             YES        YES 
ANALOG VIDEO             NO         YES
M2M Interface****        YES*****   YES ******
USB HOST (CAMERA)        YES        YES
USB HOST (STORAGE)       NO         YES
USB HOST (PRINTER)       NO         YES
USB HOST (GENERAL USB)   NO         YES*******
DEVICE ID/AUTH   YES(MFi CHIP/1Wire)  YES(RESISTOR OR 1Wire)
REVERSIBLE CONNECTOR     YES        NO

*(sort of DisplayPort)
**(MANY STD, AS MHL)
***(1Wire)
****(SERIAL INTERFACE TO CONNECT OTHER HARDWARE)
*****(Apple Propetary Protocol)
******(OpenSource ADK, Others)
*******(USB HOST FEATURES VARIES ON IMPLEMENTATION DUE PATENT LICENSING)
So, Only Advantage is the REVERSIBLE FEATURE, BUT LIGHTNING LOSES ANALOG VIDEO, WHILE MICRO USB STILL OFFER.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 02:59 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
A lot of Deceit here arguin to favor Apple's only Interest: Control The Money Arround they products.
Oh look, someone else talking big as if they understand exactly what's going on when they haven't even bothered to read the thread they are posting in.

Hint: You entirely missed the key thing that both 30-pin and Lightning do that USB can't.

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Old Feb 21, 2013, 05:39 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
Oh look, someone else talking big as if they understand exactly what's going on when they haven't even bothered to read the thread they are posting in.

Hint: You entirely missed the key thing that both 30-pin and Lightning do that USB can't.

Yeah, I STILL missed it and I just re-read the entire freaking thread (which I realized I had already read once I read it again).

Or is that lame accessory cost thing again? I mean seriously, I don't buy cheap clock radios. An extra $10 for bluetooth or $20 for WiFi doesn't bother me much if it's a good system. In fact, my Klipsch bedroom speakers cost over $250 with a WiFi receiver and they're only good for a small room. A Bose clock radio costs more than that, doesn't sound HALF as good and STILL needs an accessory receiver. I don't need or want a $50 iPod dock radio (although they're nice in hotels I suppose).
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 09:08 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
Here is the explanation I gave back in November.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...1&postcount=56
Not true, you're ignorant of micro usb or a lier.

Micro usb connector can host a ADK and ANY Machine to Machine PROTOCOL(M2M) w/o authentication chips only reading the resistor value at pin 5.

So You can implement driver - less communication with accesories thru micro usb.

But also you can use micro usb as USB Host connecting any std usb device and interactive with it as a regular pc (you need to handle the device driver dis case, only at the iPhone side).
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 09:23 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
Oh look, someone else talking big as if they understand exactly what's going on when they haven't even bothered to read the thread they are posting in.

Hint: You entirely missed the key thing that both 30-pin and Lightning do that USB can't.

User experience? C'mom....

READ THIS: Consumer Report Ready an interesting article about lighting connector, it actually fails and broke more often than the old 30 pin connector, in fact it's as bad as a cheap micro usb (high end micro usb are other story, are by far more reliable than lighting).

Facts: lightning CAN'T HANDLE. USB3 PERIOD. A new iPhone and cable (the wire part at least) is required, wires inside usb3 use new chemical isolation to reduce parasite capacitance required to achieve higher speeds.

So if you purchase today an lighting cable you actually are buying a obsolete technology and you will need another cable with your iPhone 6 if it's uses usb3 data speed. This is planned obsolescence. You can't refuse that.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 10:41 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
Not true, you're ignorant of micro usb or a lier.

Micro usb connector can host a ADK and ANY Machine to Machine PROTOCOL(M2M) w/o authentication chips only reading the resistor value at pin 5.

So You can implement driver - less communication with accesories thru micro usb.

But also you can use micro usb as USB Host connecting any std usb device and interactive with it as a regular pc (you need to handle the device driver dis case, only at the iPhone side).
Show me the accessories that can plug in to any micro-USB phone or tablet, charge, play back music, and control volume, tracks, display track information, etc. all through the accessory, and will continue to work with any phone released over the next decade. My 9 year old car stereo still does this perfectly with my iPhone 5.

MHL for video you say? Oops, need a huge $30 adapter that may or may not work and looks like this when hooked up.



And we still haven't talked about the fact that micro-USB carries a maximum of 9 watts, which means that larger tablets using that standard also need a wholly proprietary cable for charging whereas Lightning carries 12w so the same cable that charges my phone also charges and syncs my ipad.
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 11:36 PM   #157
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Wow. Mago drives some points home to the "experts" on here that have been poo-pooing micro-usb to me for days now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
Show me the accessories that can plug in to any micro-USB phone or tablet, charge, play back music, and control volume, tracks, display track information, etc. all through the accessory, and will continue to work with any phone released over the next decade. My 9 year old car stereo still does this perfectly with my iPhone 5.
Using a 10 year cycle for products that haven't been around that long is absurd.

Yes, the iPod/iPhone has a lot of penetration as it's been very popular. That doesn't negate micro-USB as a potential format. I don't like what I'm hearing about Lightning's reliability. The 30-pin connector HAS been VERY reliable (it supports the weight of the device pretty well on chargers, etc. for that matter). That tiny Lightning connector just looks fragile by comparison. I'm not saying Micro-USB isn't also fragile, but come on. The 30-pin adapter is pretty proven (although I see a lot of insulation cracking on the ends on many cables including Apple's. If anything, the Amazon brand connector is more robust, IMO).

Quote:
MHL for video you say? Oops, need a huge $30 adapter that may or may not work and looks like this when hooked up.
Kind of like Apple's pricey adapters?

Hell, look at all the stink about the HDMI connectors on the latest Mac Mini to see how reliable Apple's HDMI apparently is.

Quote:
And we still haven't talked about the fact that micro-USB carries a maximum of 9 watts, which means that larger tablets using that standard also need a wholly proprietary cable for charging whereas Lightning carries 12w so the same cable that charges my phone also charges and syncs my ipad.
Big stink over 3W. How about we get chips that use less power and save on battery life at the same time.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 12:43 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
A lot of Deceit here arguin to favor Apple's only Interest: Control The Money Arround they products.

Biggest Deceit QUALITY AND RELIABILITY: Ligtning is *better* than Micro-USB, Reality: Lithning SUCKS as a POOR MICRO USB, Best Micro-USB Proucts are by Far MORE RELIABLE THAN APPLE's ORIGINAL LIGTHNING, LOTS OF IPHONE5, IPADS GET DAMAGED WHEN IT LIGHNING CONNECTOR BROKES, IT MAY BROKE THE CONNECTOR INSIDE THE iDEVICE OR THE CABLE's CONNECTOR BROKE OR SHORTCUT DUE FATIGUE OR WEAK IMPACT PROTECTION.

SECOND LESS IMPORTANT DECEIT: *FEATURES*: the Old 30 Pin Connector featured Many LEGACY SIGNALS As ANALOG VIDEO, ANALOG SEEK CONTROL ETC, MOST OF THESE NOW ARE NOT IN LIGTHNING, ACTUALLY LIGTNING DONT DOES ANYTHING THAT MICROUSB DIDNT DO (AND BETTER) YEARS AGO:
Code:
FEATURE               LIGHTNING  MICROUSB
====================  =========  ========
POWER                    YES        YES
USB2.0 DATA              YES        YES
DIGITAL VIDEO            YES*       YES**
DIGITAL AUDIO***         YES        YES 
ANALOG AUDIO             YES        YES 
ANALOG VIDEO             NO         YES
M2M Interface****        YES*****   YES ******
USB HOST (CAMERA)        YES        YES
USB HOST (STORAGE)       NO         YES
USB HOST (PRINTER)       NO         YES
USB HOST (GENERAL USB)   NO         YES*******
DEVICE ID/AUTH   YES(MFi CHIP/1Wire)  YES(RESISTOR OR 1Wire)
REVERSIBLE CONNECTOR     YES        NO

*(sort of DisplayPort)
**(MANY STD, AS MHL)
***(1Wire)
****(SERIAL INTERFACE TO CONNECT OTHER HARDWARE)
*****(Apple Propetary Protocol)
******(OpenSource ADK, Others)
*******(USB HOST FEATURES VARIES ON IMPLEMENTATION DUE PATENT LICENSING)
So, Only Advantage is the REVERSIBLE FEATURE, BUT LIGHTNING LOSES ANALOG VIDEO, WHILE MICRO USB STILL OFFER.
You're trolling pretty hard here, but I'm not sure what your point is. You really think the USB Micro-AB receptacle is awesome because you can go outside the spec and jam all types of non-standard signals that it wasn't designed for through it?

So A, Lightning is significantly smaller than the 30-pin dock connector that it replaces, as well as being smaller than the SuperSpeed USB Micro-AB receptacle that will soon come to mobile devices.

B, it provides dedicated pins for device and accessory power, which USB does not. (Yes I know the latest USB OTG and charging specs are technically capable of providing most of the functionality currently found in Lightning, but Apple can make changes to their proprietary interface way faster than the USB-IF can update their specs.)

C, it can do analog video the same or better than MHL with one of these.

D, Lightning does not seem to be using MHL or MyDP as far as I can tell. It may be just using a MIPI M-PHY or something like that. If you know better, I'd love to hear your insight.

E, Lightning fully supports USB host and device modes, any limitations are due to Apple locking down the software side of things, not the hardware. It does not, however, appear to support USB OTG type role switching (HNP/RSP) AFAIK.

F, Lightning offers 2 differential signaling pairs in addition to device and accessory power. USB 2.0 Micro-AB connectors simply cannot match that with only 5 pins. You need at least 2 pairs to handle high-speed, full-duplex communication.

G, the Lightning connector can handle SuperSpeed USB just fine. The current cables are not SuperSpeed capable because Apple hasn't shipped any SuperSpeed capable iPhones, iPads or iPods yet. Do you know of any non-SuperSpeed devices that currently ship with SuperSpeed cables in the box? I'm pretty sure my iPhone 6 will come with the right kind of cable, and my current one will continue to work just fine for connecting to my car's audio system. (And what's this crap about parasite capacitance issues? The cable needs 5 more pins in the USB A plug and two more pairs of conductors to do SuperSpeed, not some magical chemical isolation that it's lacking.)

H, please do share the link to the Consumer Reports article you mention. I just searched for it and only came up with references to products that ship with Lightning connectors or to various aspects of Apple's devices or services being "lightning fast".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
Wow. Mago drives some points home to the "experts" on here that have been poo-pooing micro-usb to me for days now.
I'm not sure that Mago is really bailing you out here. You do both shout a fair amount though...

Quote:
Kind of like Apple's pricey adapters?

Hell, look at all the stink about the HDMI connectors on the latest Mac Mini to see how reliable Apple's HDMI apparently is.
But not as well designed.

Oh right, so Intel's problem with HD 4000 HDMI output that Apple fixed with an EFI update is somehow related to the reliability of Apple's Digital AV Adapters?

Quote:
Big stink over 3W. How about we get chips that use less power and save on battery life at the same time.
We get chips that use less power all the time... Haven't you noticed how much more capable mobile devices are getting? The power issue, which really has been thoroughly addressed by the latest USB charging spec, has to do with how long it takes to charge larger batteries (tablet, UltraBook, notebook) via USB. Even if you get 5 days of battery life, you're not going to want to wait 20 hours to fully charge again.

Last edited by repoman27; Feb 22, 2013 at 01:09 AM.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 07:35 AM   #159
zhenya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
Wow. Mago drives some points home to the "experts" on here that have been poo-pooing micro-usb to me for days now.



Using a 10 year cycle for products that haven't been around that long is absurd.

Yes, the iPod/iPhone has a lot of penetration as it's been very popular. That doesn't negate micro-USB as a potential format. I don't like what I'm hearing about Lightning's reliability. The 30-pin connector HAS been VERY reliable (it supports the weight of the device pretty well on chargers, etc. for that matter). That tiny Lightning connector just looks fragile by comparison. I'm not saying Micro-USB isn't also fragile, but come on. The 30-pin adapter is pretty proven (although I see a lot of insulation cracking on the ends on many cables including Apple's. If anything, the Amazon brand connector is more robust, IMO).



Kind of like Apple's pricey adapters?

Hell, look at all the stink about the HDMI connectors on the latest Mac Mini to see how reliable Apple's HDMI apparently is.



Big stink over 3W. How about we get chips that use less power and save on battery life at the same time.
I agree, in general I don't think that Lightning will suffer abuse as well as the 30-pin did.

The point of me posting the adapter was to counter the argument that Apple was gouging people with the need for these adapters; it happens with both formats.

3w is a big deal because it means that the same cable that charges an iPhone can also charge an iPad. The 9w limit is the reason that tablets like the Nexus 10 have to have a separate, proprietary charging cable.

I would still love to see some decent micro-usb accessories for Android phones since everyone keeps telling us how it does everything that Apple's cables do. How about one that connects to a wide variety of Android phones using just one cable for charging and music playback, while offering control of the device without resorting to a 3rd-party app? Anyone?

Last edited by zhenya; Feb 22, 2013 at 07:45 AM.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 12:25 PM   #160
Mago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
You're trolling pretty hard here, but I'm not sure what your point is. You really think the USB Micro-AB receptacle is awesome because you can go outside the spec and jam all types of non-standard signals that it wasn't designed for through it?
Going outside specifications? What Apple Did with the Classic Audio Jack and the CONTROLTALK, or what they did with the same and double purpose it as USB port on the iPod SHUFFLE.

Why not going outside specifications agan, A Good Quality MicroUSB pair outperfoms on reliability and strength the current basic ligthning from Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
So A, Lightning is significantly smaller than the 30-pin dock connector that it replaces, as well as being smaller than the SuperSpeed USB Micro-AB receptacle that will soon come to mobile devices.
SuperSpeed Micro-USB is intended for USB3, Ligning will require a new cable to be capable to use USB3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
B, it provides dedicated pins for device and accessory power, which USB does not. (Yes I know the latest USB OTG and charging specs are technically capable of providing most of the functionality currently found in Lightning, but Apple can make changes to their proprietary interface way faster than the USB-IF can update their specs.)
Which Ones? please see the Diagram.



Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
C, it can do analog video the same or better than MHL with one of these.
3rd Party STD MHL cost as little as 15$, for Galaxy S3 ther is also custom adapter to use std MHL also Cheap propertary MHL adapter cheaper (and with better build quality) than Apple's ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
D, Lightning does not seem to be using MHL or MyDP as far as I can tell. It may be just using a MIPI M-PHY or something like that. If you know better, I'd love to hear your insight.
Irrelevant, but Apple is not happy using 3rd party patented interfaces, as HDMI coz they must pay royalties and Apple hates pay royalties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
E, Lightning fully supports USB host and device modes, any limitations are due to Apple locking down the software side of things, not the hardware. It does not, however, appear to support USB OTG type role switching (HNP/RSP) AFAIK.
A bit of sincerity is always welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
F, Lightning offers 2 differential signaling pairs in addition to device and accessory power. USB 2.0 Micro-AB connectors simply cannot match that with only 5 pins. You need at least 2 pairs to handle high-speed, full-duplex communication.
Irrelvant for USB2.0, when Apple Implemtent USB3.0 You Will need another cord with USB3.0 wiring, so next year your Ligthning Cable Is Obsolete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
G, the Lightning connector can handle SuperSpeed USB just fine. The current cables are not SuperSpeed capable because Apple hasn't shipped any SuperSpeed capable iPhones, iPads or iPods yet. Do you know of any non-SuperSpeed devices that currently ship with SuperSpeed cables in the box? I'm pretty sure my iPhone 6 will come with the right kind of cable, and my current one will continue to work just fine for connecting to my car's audio system. (And what's this crap about parasite capacitance issues? The cable needs 5 more pins in the USB A plug and two more pairs of conductors to do SuperSpeed, not some magical chemical isolation that it's lacking.)
USB3.0 cables uses different isolation, period.

You can still use an MicroUSB2.0 cable on an MicroUSB3.0 connector, you just loses super speed, you dont need to buy a charging adaptor (this was minded for european market, but is wecome).
so there is a tie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
H, please do share the link to the Consumer Reports article you mention. I just searched for it and only came up with references to products that ship with Lightning connectors or to various aspects of Apple's devices or services being "lightning fast".
Later, btw just go to Apple Support forum and read the complaints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post


We get chips that use less power all the time... Haven't you noticed how much more capable mobile devices are getting? The power issue, which really has been thoroughly addressed by the latest USB charging spec, has to do with how long it takes to charge larger batteries (tablet, UltraBook, notebook) via USB. Even if you get 5 days of battery life, you're not going to want to wait 20 hours to fully charge again.
For Years Apple devices suffer from poor battery life, not related to dock connector wattage, but its an defect by design, Apple dont care to make iPhone work all day with enough spare power, because it will made it fatty, and Mophie and other will lost they market.

Ipad dont have these problem.

Last edited by Mago; Feb 22, 2013 at 12:34 PM.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 08:53 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
Going outside specifications? What Apple Did with the Classic Audio Jack and the CONTROLTALK, or what they did with the same and double purpose it as USB port on the iPod SHUFFLE.

Why not going outside specifications agan, A Good Quality MicroUSB pair outperfoms on reliability and strength the current basic ligthning from Apple.
Please refer me to the governing body that maintains a standard specification for the common 3.5mm TRRS connector. And also provide data showing the USB 2.0 Micro-AB receptacle and USB 2.0 Micro-B plug from any supplier outperform Apple's Lightning plug and receptacle. (I'm not saying that Apple's interface is necessarily better, btw, I'm just pointing out that you're talking s*** and have zero evidence to support any of your claims.)

Quote:
SuperSpeed Micro-USB is intended for USB3, Ligning will require a new cable to be capable to use USB3.
Yup, but not a whole new and considerably larger connector like USB 2.0 Micro-AB does.

Quote:
Which Ones? please see the Diagram.
Yeah, see your diagram is from Wikipedia, mine is from Apple (thanks to anonymouslurker).



Quote:
3rd Party STD MHL cost as little as 15$, for Galaxy S3 ther is also custom adapter to use std MHL also Cheap propertary MHL adapter cheaper (and with better build quality) than Apple's ones.
Show me a link to a non-eBay listing for one for $15 shipped. Now show me a link to one that can operate without an additional power source plugged in. Now show me the full suggested retail price of one made by Samsung, since that would be an Apples to, well, Samsungs comparison. And while you're at it, show me actual empirical evidence that these cheaper adapters are of better build quality than Apple's.

Quote:
Irrelevant, but Apple is not happy using 3rd party patented interfaces, as HDMI coz they must pay royalties and Apple hates pay royalties.
Relevant, because it illustrates that another assertion you attempted to make was incorrect.

Quote:
Irrelvant for USB2.0, when Apple Implemtent USB3.0 You Will need another cord with USB3.0 wiring, so next year your Ligthning Cable Is Obsolete.
Right, so all your USB 2.0 cables are completely obsolete because they're not SuperSpeed? Oh, wait, they still work just fine as you're well aware:

Quote:
You can still use an MicroUSB2.0 cable on an MicroUSB3.0 connector, you just loses super speed, you dont need to buy a charging adaptor (this was minded for european market, but is wecome).
so there is a tie.
No, it's not a tie. We're talking about the Lightning interface vs. the USB 2.0 Micro-AB receptacle. One can do USB 2.0 and SuperSpeed USB given an appropriate cable, the other cannot.

Quote:
USB3.0 cables uses different isolation, period.
Your argument is still idiotic. It's not like Apple was going to put shielding sufficient for 2.5 GHz signaling rates in a cable that doesn't even contain SuperSpeed signaling pairs.

Quote:
Later, btw just go to Apple Support forum and read the complaints.
Yeah, probably much later, since you clearly got nothing.

Quote:
For Years Apple devices suffer from poor battery life, not related to dock connector wattage, but its an defect by design, Apple dont care to make iPhone work all day with enough spare power, because it will made it fatty, and Mophie and other will lost they market.
Listen, take your troll bs elsewhere. Every handset manufacturer has the same limited options for battery chemistry, and they all need to compromise between device size, features and battery life. There's somewhere around 250 million iPhones in use at this point, and most of them make it through a day on a single charge, just like pretty much any other popular handset from any other OEM.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 08:14 PM   #162
MagnusVonMagnum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
I'm just pointing out that you're talking s*** and have zero evidence to support any of your claims.)


Your argument is still idiotic. It's not like Apple was going to put shielding sufficient for 2.5 GHz signaling rates in a cable that doesn't even contain SuperSpeed signaling pairs.


Listen, take your troll bs elsewhere.
I find your reply unprofessional, the use of curse words pathetic and your constant claims of "trolling" (despite his well thought out arguments and documented proof) appalling. You'll convince no one that way.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 09:06 AM   #163
Mago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
Please refer me to the governing body that maintains a standard specification for the common 3.5mm TRRS connector. And also provide data showing the USB 2.0 Micro-AB receptacle and USB 2.0 Micro-B plug from any supplier outperform Apple's Lightning plug and receptacle. (I'm not saying that Apple's interface is necessarily better, btw, I'm just pointing out that you're talking s*** and have zero evidence to support any of your claims.)
So because, No body goberning the 3.5mm plug Apple can doit what they wan, but because MicroUSB has an entity *governing* it evolution Apple Cant doit what other Companies does.... C'mom

You now Tolling me, this is't a court room, for evidence just go to a good store and purchase good quality MicroUSB cables from BELKIN as example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
Yup, but not a whole new and considerably larger connector like USB 2.0 Micro-AB does.



Yeah, see your diagram is from Wikipedia, mine is from Apple (thanks to anonymouslurker).

Image
You trolling now, I remeber you talked about *DEDICATED* pins, no neither MicroUSB nor Ligtning has Dedicated PINS for M2M communications, so if you want a Dock With Audio, You'll need to implement thru Apple's Interface Limitations, no problem for Digital Audio Players since 1Wire digital audio actually support this (for Apple and non-Apple devices, since is an Industry std.

FYI My Old Sud Had a Sony Xplod DSX300 HU that provides an USB port to connect Digital Media Players, either Apple or non apple, and With BOTH it provides Playback control, Media Info, etc. If you need evidence go to Youtube lots of videos on Xplods and non-Apple PMP's (not only Smartphones, iPods, also many cheapo MP3 players provides 1Wire interface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post

Show me a link to a non-eBay listing for one for $15 shipped. Now show me a link to one that can operate without an additional power source plugged in. Now show me the full suggested retail price of one made by Samsung, since that would be an Apples to, well, Samsungs comparison. And while you're at it, show me actual empirical evidence that these cheaper adapters are of better build quality than Apple's.
My Evidence is as empirical as your allegations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
Relevant, because it illustrates that another assertion you attempted to make was incorrect.
Trolling Anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post

Right, so all your USB 2.0 cables are completely obsolete because they're not SuperSpeed? Oh, wait, they still work just fine as you're well aware:



No, it's not a tie. We're talking about the Lightning interface vs. the USB 2.0 Micro-AB receptacle. One can do USB 2.0 and SuperSpeed USB given an appropriate cable, the other cannot.
And one can still recieve Data and Charge on Legacy (EU Ruled) Adapters, So I dont need to pick an special Micro-USB->SSmUSB if I live at europa, but Ligthning requires that MicroUSB Adapter, I could travel with a simple cable for Data (USB2 speed), you'll need two cables and one adapter...

Yes, this is not a Tie, SSmUSB provides less mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post


Your argument is still idiotic. It's not like Apple was going to put shielding sufficient for 2.5 GHz signaling rates in a cable that doesn't even contain SuperSpeed signaling pairs.
You Trolling, It's evident current Ligtning cables are not USB3 Capables, only the connector, you'll need another cable for this and store your current ligthning cables, this way APPLE planed your current Lighning cable obsolecense.

Facts:
*If you purchase an extra Ligthning cable Now, it will no provide you SSUSB when you get that feature on the next iThing.
*an Extra MicroUSB-Ligtning is mandatory at euro countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post

Listen, take your troll bs elsewhere. Every handset manufacturer has the same limited options for battery chemistry, and they all need to compromise between device size, features and battery life. There's somewhere around 250 million iPhones in use at this point, and most of them make it through a day on a single charge, just like pretty much any other popular handset from any other OEM.
Joke of the day...

A Full Day Where? I Remeber you that on Earth a day has 24 Hours, and tipical Job Journey is 7-8 Hours, and Tipical Journey (or home outside) adds 4-5 hours, so a tipical device must last 13-15 Hours to not need a recharge at half day. Samsung learned that, and they efficienty S-Amoled Screen plus Big-Form Factors provided the Key, and Its usual that a Galaxy S(1/2/3,Note2 not Note1) provides 14+ Hour of battery life, also you have the option to replace the STD battery with High Capacity ones, reaching full 24h endurance.

I'm a Apple Fan, but iPhone 5 design was a FIASCO for me, not as the iPad Mini ( I'll get a new one as it get retina display, my 3th iPad), the Ligtning connector was needed but poor implented, Apple must to take a MicroUSB way or at least a stronger connector w/o DRM mess, and Unecesay Complexity (a cable usable at both sides its easy to implement w/o a special chip rewiring it, a |D+|D-|P+|P-|ID|P-|P+|D-|D+| secuence at both sides of the connector will do the same, w/o Chip, and with the same contact poits (9 at both sides).

Last edited by Mago; Feb 24, 2013 at 09:46 AM.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:00 AM   #164
repoman27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
I find your reply unprofessional, the use of curse words pathetic and your constant claims of "trolling" (despite his well thought out arguments and documented proof) appalling. You'll convince no one that way.
Ah, the ad hominem. Always a go-to when you're failing miserably at presenting a cogent argument.

My reply was not intended to be professional, since that would imply that I get paid to post on the forums of rumor sites. A significant percentage of Mago's assertions are faulty, and I'm pretty sure Mago is aware of that, hence I was merely calling a spade a spade. What "documented proof" was presented exactly? Is Wikipedia passing for a peer reviewed journal with kids these days?

Oh, and as for cursing, I typed those asterisks, not the profanity filter. And I'm a little surprised that such an allegation would come from the person who in this very thread posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
...We want our freaking 30% TAX...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
...not anything close to the flipping tea-party...makes a freaking fortune selling overpriced cables...
-Apple Mini Display Port to Dual-Link DVI: $99 <= WTF?!...
I forgot to call you out on not understanding why that adapter costs so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
...WTF is the point supposed to be?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
Yeah, it's freaking HUGE... Heck, it's not even USB 3.0... Same level of functionality my arse...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
Bullcrap...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
WTF does a mechanical engineer have to do with an electronic engineering project? I AM an electronic engineer, BTW. YOU obviously don't know WTF you're talking about by that statement ALONE... Apple made a conscious decision to FRAK over EVERYONE...to buy freaking expensive "can't wait to lose them" ADAPTERS...WHAT KIND OF A FRAKING GENIUS came up with that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
...the consumer to screwed with $29 flipping adapters... Just because their charger is crap, they're all crap...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
...I just re-read the entire freaking thread...
So anywho, after showing you that Apple did not in fact make a pile of money off of the transition to the Lightning interface, and trying to rationally evaluate the actual differences between the Lightning, 30-pin dock and various USB Micro connectors, it seems to boil down to Apple not sufficiently stroking your sense of entitlement in this situation.

I suppose that throughout the history of the iPhone and iPad there has been a tacit understanding between Apple and its customers that most 30-pin dock connector accessories purchased would be able to be used with future (and often past as well) generations of devices. Apple has upset the cart a bit by switching to Lightning, but they did provide adapters so as not to completely break their end of the bargain. You're annoyed that these adapters cost $29-$39 and Apple didn't blow roughly $2.5 billion on including one with every device for the first 2 years of the transition, even though most of them would have gone unused.

How many 30-pin accessories do you own that cost you more than $60? How many of these provide some still relevant function and yet also lack the ability to connect via USB, WiFi/AirPlay, Bluetooth/A2DP, or analog audio line-in? Don't you still own the 30-pin devices that you bought these for in the first place? Aren't they still just as useful? How long have you already been using them? What are they worth now given standard depreciation?

The Lightning to 30-pin adapters actually target a very narrow audience; most people will simply never need one. Apple has not wronged anyone, nor was their new proprietary device interface motivated solely by greed. Get over it.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 05:04 PM   #165
repoman27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
...I'm a Apple Fan, but iPhone 5 design was a FIASCO for me, not as the iPad Mini ( I'll get a new one as it get retina display, my 3th iPad), the Ligtning connector was needed but poor implented, Apple must to take a MicroUSB way or at least a stronger connector w/o DRM mess, and Unecesay Complexity (a cable usable at both sides its easy to implement w/o a special chip rewiring it, a |D+|D-|P+|P-|ID|P-|P+|D-|D+| secuence at both sides of the connector will do the same, w/o Chip, and with the same contact poits (9 at both sides).
This may not be a courtroom, but if you present statements that are far from being generally accepted as factual rather than personal opinion, then the burden of proof may fall upon you. I called you out because you made several statements which were inaccurate, and then you apparently lied about Consumer Reports publishing a negative statement regarding the quality of Apple's Lightning connectors. You are actively attempting to negatively impact public opinion of an Apple technology in this forum, and one has to ask why you would be inclined to do so? What do you stand to gain from this?

Since you approve of Wikipedia's take on things, you may want to read up on their definition of trolling. I believe you'll find it to be a far more accurate description of your posts than mine.

How 'bout I make the arguable claim that in comparison to any available USB Micro connectors, Apple's Lightning connector:
  • offers better retention with lower insertion force
  • has better shielding
  • has much greater impact and pinch resistance
  • is rated for many more mating cycles
  • is more resistant to corrosion
  • has a higher tensile breaking strength
  • has a higher strength to weight ratio
  • employs more advanced manufacturing processes
  • uses higher quality materials

There's not really much point in adopting a standard if you know you're going to go outside the specification from day one. The other OEMs also make millions of handsets that employ the USB Micro-AB receptacle without the additional use of proprietary third-party extensions. While these extensions may provide additional functionality for some users, it's generally preferable to abide by the specifications of a standard.

I'm honestly a bit confused about your point regarding M2M and 1-Wire and how those technologies relate to smartphones, tablets and portable media players. Most of these devices simply use USB device profiles to connect to automobile head units, docks and so forth. The USB port that came standard in my vehicle allows charging, audio playback and control of PMPs, iOS devices, and Android devices regardless of whether I'm using a 30-pin dock connector, Lightning or USB Mini/Micro-B to USB Type A cable.

The advantage I cited for Lightning over the USB 2.0 Micro-AB connector is that it provides dedicated pins for device and accessory power, as well as 2 differential signaling pairs, which it indeed does. The signaling pairs can be repurposed at Apple's discretion, which currently means support for USB 2.0 host and peripheral modes, general purpose UART and digital display output. While a USB Micro-AB connector combined with a switch and some proprietary third party technologies can support a similar degree of functionality as Lightning does today, the path going forward is much clearer for Lightning. OEMs currently shipping devices with USB 2.0 Micro-AB ports will likely just switch to using USB 3.0 Micro-AB for any devices that eventually support SuperSpeed mode, despite the fact that the receptacle is twice the size. Apple wasn't about to go that route and lose the controlled ecosystem they had created with the 30-pin dock connector, so they created Lightning.

Not a single handset out of the hundreds of millions sold last year shipped with a SuperSpeed cable. All of those cables should, however, continue to work just fine in High-Speed mode with future devices. It makes no difference whether they have a USB Micro or Lightning connector on the device end. There is no case that can be made for the current cables becoming obsolete any time soon. And regardless of where you go with a Lightning device, you needn't bring more than the one cable that came with it.

When people talk about a battery lasting a full day, it's generally assumed that most people sleep for at least part of a typical 24 hour period. As for the battery life of the iPhone 5, actual testing by Anandtech clearly refutes your claims:











Your suggestion at the end makes a lot of sense, although the Apple 9-pin connector is really only 8 pins plus the shield, which just happens to also be a pin due to the design. Also, including a unique ID on an EPROM in the connector is not really the same as DRM. Apple actively dislikes DRM, pretty much strong-armed the music industry into abandoning it on digital downloads, and refuses to include Blu-ray drives in their devices because of it. I'm sure they'd love to do away with HDCP too as soon as possible.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 06:08 PM   #166
MagnusVonMagnum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
Ah, the ad hominem. Always a go-to when you're failing miserably at presenting a cogent argument.
I think you have that backwards. You are the one resorting to calling someone's argument "trolling" rather than presenting any kind of rational argument. In short, you lost the argument ages ago, except perhaps in your own mind.

Quote:
My reply was not intended to be professional, since that would imply that I get paid to post on the forums of rumor sites. A significant percentage of
It wouldn't imply ANYTHING of the sort. The fact you think that behaving in a civilized manner requires you to be paid speaks volumes about your character.

Quote:
Mago's assertions are faulty, and I'm pretty sure Mago is aware of that, hence I was merely calling a spade a spade.
Your assertions are faulty and I'm pretty sure that you are aware of that and hence I was merely calling a spade a spade. Sounds kind of crappy when turned in your direction, doesn't it?

Quote:
What "documented proof" was presented exactly? Is Wikipedia passing for a peer reviewed journal with kids these days?
Wikipedia is more "peer" reviewed than any source I know given their editing rules. Or is your idea of a "peer" someone getting paid to write for snooty magazines?

Quote:
Oh, and as for cursing, I typed those asterisks, not the profanity filter. And I'm a little surprised that such an allegation would come from the person who in this very thread posted the following:
I don't see a single profanity word in any of your quotes.

Quote:
I forgot to call you out on not understanding why that adapter costs so much.
Call all you want. It's still overpriced and more importantly, it should have been unnecessary. On my 2008 Macbook Pro since it has DVI output like all their models still SHOULD be using. MDP is a massive failure on EVERY level. Like Thunderbolt, it's used by hardly anyone other than Apple and I see no signs of that changing ANY time soon. So out come millions of adapters that end up in a landfill sooner rather than later (like most of Apple's products since you can't even change a battery without jeweler's tools and a surgical deft hand). The point is you wouldn't need such an adapter if Apple included the connection (like they used to) that MOST of the world is STILL using rather than some fantasy prediction of the future where everyone uses Mini Display Port (and now Thunderbolt as well).

Apple's ability to make money appears to be rooted in their ability to predict the future and sadly they are starting to fail at this big time. Steve simply isn't around to witness the fallout of some of his lousier decisions. The stock just keeps on falling downward despite profits. People KNOW Apple is without vision once again and it's just a matter of time before they lightning their way back into oblivion.

Quote:
So anywho, after showing you that Apple did not in fact make a pile of money off of the transition to the Lightning interface, and trying to rationally
I must have missed that part. Your hated rival is the one that showed how many millions they have made and it's hardly trivial. People like to say how little money Apple makes off iTunes like they make next to nothing or something and it's a load of horse manure. They make more money off iTunes than other phone makers make off their entire product lines. The fact they make more from the iOS products themselves doesn't negate the fact they make large profits just the same.

Quote:
evaluate the actual differences between the Lightning, 30-pin dock and various USB Micro connectors, it seems to boil down to Apple not sufficiently stroking your sense of entitlement in this situation.
Your use of the word "entitlement" also speaks volumes about your character. I know your type all too well. Unfortunately for you, the usage is incorrect here. I have a choice to not buy their products if I don't like the garbage they're selling and I have yet to buy a Lightning product. My last iPod Touch having massive battery issues (the battery meter is all over the place, going from fully charged to 20% warning back to 70% charged at any given minute) that started rearing its ugly head a few months after the warranty period was up has left me with a bad taste for another one, let alone the use of new cables.

Quote:
I suppose that throughout the history of the iPhone and iPad there has been a tacit understanding between Apple and its customers that most 30-pin dock connector accessories purchased would be able to be used with future (and often past as well) generations of devices. Apple has upset the cart a bit by switching to Lightning, but they did provide adapters so as not to completely break their end of the bargain. You're annoyed that these adapters cost $29-$39 and Apple didn't blow roughly $2.5 billion on including one with every device for the first 2 years of the transition, even though most of them would have gone unused.
Like most of your arguments, your figure is complete and utter NONSENSE. It does not cost Apple $29 to make one of those adapters. In reality, it costs them closer to $2.90 than 29 and given their profit margins, it doesn't "cost" them anything but their feeling of entitlement to taking more of your money to put in their enormous pockets. Apple's profit margins are higer than most companies and higher than they need to be and their insane amounts of petty cash on hand prove it. They don't want to lower their profit margins and they don't want to return that money to their shareholders. Apparently, Steve Jobs liked to take a swim in a pool of $1000 dollar bills or something after wiping his back side with $10,000 bills.

Quote:
How many 30-pin accessories do you own that cost you more than $60? How many of these provide some still relevant function and yet also lack the ability to connect via USB, WiFi/AirPlay, Bluetooth/A2DP, or analog audio line-in? Don't you still own the 30-pin devices that you bought these for in the first place? Aren't they still just as useful? How long have you already been using them? What are they worth now given standard depreciation?
Your attempt to say something like a Commodore 64 is still a useful modern computer BECAUSE all the software written for it still runs on it is one of the worst piles of steaming poo I've ever encountered on the Internet and believe me, you are no the first person to use that argument by a long shot. The argument was and IS pure garbage because it transplants the HERE AND NOW with some arbitrary point in the past and pretends that we're talking about the same thing when in fact unless you're Marty McFly, the past isn't a place you can live in. The fact an 8-track player still plays 8-tracks made for it in the '70s (and even the '80s by Columbia Records) doesn't mean I want one installed in my car today.

I personally don't buy these devices because they're overpriced and under-featured. Having a 30-pin connector is meaningless if the device is a POS speaker system. I use a whole house WiFi system with the iPod Touch as a wireless remote control and always have since the 1st generation (at least THAT iPod Touch still has a workable battery and it's hard wired by the main listening couch most of the time anyway and my other iPod is usually in my pocket). That doesn't change the fact that I run into 30-pin devices while traveling all the time and buying a new iPod Touch would make those devices useless to me without a 30-pin adapter that may or may not work well or get lost easily. $30 is a lot of money to pay for something that rarely gets used and yet a detriment when you could use it and don't have it. Other people have a lot more accessories. The arguments here are not just about me. Having to plug in two different connector wires when I'm running out of USB ports would be annoying enough in and of itself (even connecting an adapter there would be annoying).

Quote:
The Lightning to 30-pin adapters actually target a very narrow audience; most people will simply never need one. Apple has not wronged anyone, nor was their new proprietary device interface motivated solely by greed. Get over it.
Where is your proof for this assertion that "most" people will never "need" one? Define "need". I don't "need" an iPhone to survive. How many people would have USE for one? How many people will be inconvenienced at some point by not having one? Do people want to carry adapters around when they're easy to lose? How many have the airplane audio adapter on them when they need it even if their headphones came with one? Carrying it around is a PITA and THAT is essentially what Lightning is here and now. It's a royal PITA and an unnecessary one.

You don't have to worry about it, though. Lightning is here whether I like it or not. You got your wish. You get a crappy unreliable connector instead of a proven working one. Have fun with it.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 06:17 PM   #167
Belmont31R
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I am perplexed at how people can bitch about the lightning cable when micro USB is crab, and fragile. I don't mind paying $20 for a able if it lasts 4-5 years. We have a GS3 in the mix, and despite buying Samsung OEM cables none of them last more than 2 months before they stop locking into the phone. Its not the connector on the phone. Micro USB just sucks. I can get them lock in if it take a knife, and fix the little hooks that lock the cable to the device.



I am very happy with lightning. Months now, and every cable still locks in and $20 for a cable isn't out of line if itlasts several years.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 06:45 PM   #168
zhenya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
On my 2008 Macbook Pro since it has DVI output like all their models still SHOULD be using. MDP is a massive failure on EVERY level. Like Thunderbolt, it's used by hardly anyone other than Apple and I see no signs of that changing ANY time soon.
Wow, wrong again.

Mini displayport is pretty much the standard on modern laptops. It has more bandwidth, supporting higher resolutions than DVI, and has no licensing fees. HP, Dell, Lenovo, and Microsoft have all been moving to MDP for their portable devices.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:27 PM   #169
Mago
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This is boring, repoman27

This is a discussion among an Engineer (me), and a Fan.

To everybody here I suggest to read about http://www.theskepticsguide.org/reso...fallacies.aspx
repoman27 is an expert...


FYI:
1-Wire as a cheap mp3 audio interface (1-wire is a multipurpose serial communication protocol similar to i2c),
1-Wire over USB is an overspec usage of the USB port/cable. 1-wire is not an USB Profile, its an re-purpose of the USB connector,
not t confuse with MTP neither i2c

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/Mp3/...datasheet.html

DRM concept not only applies to Digital Media, but any device designed to enforce a control on a feature or action of any device (create a rigth) by digital means rather than IP Laws, basically when Digital Technology acts as the Policy.

Read this ( FORBES ) http://www.forbes.com/sites/edzitron...8/galaxynote2/

About battery Life: It Doesnt reflects Firmware depuration, as the iOS 6 was a battery hog, Android some times suffer same issue, current Android 4.1.2 is far more efficient, also the Note II load some features the iPhone 5 dont need to power (whic maybe disabled saving extra power) as Smart Stay (uses front camera to seek the User Eyes, then keep screen on or rotates the screes, etc- its an true battery hog) also NFC and the SPen Active Digitizer load the battery. Seek at XDA-DEVELOPERS but do more, just ask to somebody having both iPhone 5 and Note II, which one is better and performs better, While iOS still more polilte on detail, Android's outstantind freedom provides more resources as SwiftKey 4 Tap/Swype Smart Keyboard...
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:47 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusVonMagnum View Post
...MDP is a massive failure on EVERY level. Like Thunderbolt, it's used by hardly anyone other than Apple and I see no signs of that changing ANY time soon... The point is you wouldn't need such an adapter if Apple included the connection (like they used to) that MOST of the world is STILL using rather than some fantasy prediction of the future where everyone uses Mini Display Port (and now Thunderbolt as well)...
DVI is an entirely legacy interface at this point, completely superseded by DisplayPort and HDMI. DisplayPort is native to all current Intel IGPs and AMD GPUs which means, in essence, that every PC sold in the past couple years has had DisplayPort capability built in. All Mac DP and Thunderbolt ports are DP++, which means that just like HDMI, they support a DVI signaling mode and can be converted to DVI with a cheap (sub $10) passive adapter.

Dual-link DVI is a different bird. DVI, like the early HDMI specs, only supports resolutions up to 1920x1200. Dual-link DVI was required for higher resolution panels. DP 1.0 offered as much bandwidth as Dual-link DVI but utilized a much smaller, friction fit connector, similar to HDMI. It does not, however, provide the 6 signaling pairs required for a passive Dual-link DVI adapter solution. If you own a display that requires a Dual-link DVI connection, then you probably paid at least $1000 for it and might be willing to plunk down $99 in order to continue using it. Check pricing for these adapters from other vendors and you'll see Apple isn't too far off the mark.

Quote:
I must have missed that part. Your hated rival is the one that showed how many millions they have made and it's hardly trivial. People like to say how little money Apple makes off iTunes like they make next to nothing or something and it's a load of horse manure. They make more money off iTunes than other phone makers make off their entire product lines. The fact they make more from the iOS products themselves doesn't negate the fact they make large profits just the same.
Well, don't miss it this time around. The link is to Apple's financial statement for the most recent quarter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman27 View Post
Take a minute and read through this.

Some people on this board would have you believe that Apple sold 50 million devices with Lightning connectors last quarter, and that every person who bought one also purchased an extra cable and an adapter (combined ASP $43, but only cost Apple $2 to make), resulting in $2.05B additional profit for Apple. Apple reported net income of $13.078B last quarter, and some would say that an astonishing 15.7% was a result of their Lightning driven cash grab.

If you look at their actual earnings statement though, Apple only reported net sales of $1.829B worth of accessories total. While this was an increase of 24.6% over the year ago quarter, unit sales were up 19.6% even with the struggling Mac and iPod divisions. So if we held Apple's gains in accessories to growth linear with that of their unit sales, we'd see they netted an additional $73.4M potentially attributable to Lightning. Even if that was 100% profit, which is highly unlikely, it would represent 0.56% of their net income for the quarter.

Does Apple make profit off of cables and adapters? Yes. Are they profiting excessively in the case of Lightning? It would appear not. What I do see is dramatically reduced ASPs and margins in the iPad division, their second largest.
That's all actual numbers, and clearly debunks any notion that Lightning constituted a "cash-grab" by Apple. It is far more reasonable to suggest that Lightning actually negatively impacted their profit from third party accessories sold through their stores during the crucial holiday quarter.

And who is my hated rival? I ain't hatin' on nobody.

Quote:
Like most of your arguments, your figure is complete and utter NONSENSE. It does not cost Apple $29 to make one of those adapters. In reality, it costs them closer to $2.90 than 29 and given their profit margins, it doesn't "cost" them anything but their feeling of entitlement to taking more of your money to put in their enormous pockets...
Yeah, see what I did was pretty simple. I made an extremely conservative estimate of the number of iPods, iPads and iPhones with Lightning connectors Apple will sell in the next 2 years based on last year's actual sales figures (236.57 million for fiscal 2012). I picked 350 million for that number. Then I estimated the cost of the $29 adapter at a very reasonable given whats on the BOM $7.25 (a 75% gross margin, which is high even by Apple standards). Then I multiplied the two numbers and rounded down to $2.5B. This of course doesn't even factor in anything for the cost to design, engineer and test these adapters which they'll never be able to sell now because they've given away hundreds of millions of them, or costs arising from warranty liability. See using your brain isn't that hard if you try.

Quote:
Your attempt to say something like a Commodore 64 is still a useful modern computer BECAUSE all the software written for it still runs on it is one of the worst piles of steaming poo I've ever encountered on the Internet and believe me, you are no the first person to use that argument by a long shot. The argument was and IS pure garbage because it transplants the HERE AND NOW with some arbitrary point in the past and pretends that we're talking about the same thing when in fact unless you're Marty McFly, the past isn't a place you can live in. The fact an 8-track player still plays 8-tracks made for it in the '70s (and even the '80s by Columbia Records) doesn't mean I want one installed in my car today.
Umm, no. See you've got it reversed. You're the one clinging to legacy technologies like DVI. What I'm saying is that when these transitions occur, people might tend to stop buying the older technology fairly quickly, but they continue to make use of it for considerably longer than that because it still works just fine. There's a period of overlap before the new technology becomes ubiquitous and supplants the prior one. Did you throw away your cassette deck the day you got a CD player? Do you still own a CD player and CDs even though you have an iPod now? I have an iPhone 5 and I still have a 30-pin dock connected to my home stereo that continues to work with iPods or any 30-pin devices that guests might bring with them. I didn't feel the need to buy an adapter because I generally keep my phone in my pocket and stream to the stereo via AirPlay.

Quote:
Where is your proof for this assertion that "most" people will never "need" one? Define "need". I don't "need" an iPhone to survive. How many people would have USE for one? How many people will be inconvenienced at some point by not having one? Do people want to carry adapters around when they're easy to lose? How many have the airplane audio adapter on them when they need it even if their headphones came with one? Carrying it around is a PITA and THAT is essentially what Lightning is here and now. It's a royal PITA and an unnecessary one.
By most people I mean a majority of Lightning device owners. By need I mean have a requirement such that making do without would result in a seriously diminished user experience. And my basis for the assertion are the statistics for first time iPod/iPhone/iPad buyers and accessory ownership among the existing customer base. Do some reading, do some math. If you have numbers that controvert mine then show them to me.

And watch that language there mister... I know what that acronym stands for even if you didn't spell it out!

Quote:
You don't have to worry about it, though. Lightning is here whether I like it or not. You got your wish. You get a crappy unreliable connector instead of a proven working one. Have fun with it.
I never wished for Lightning, but I have to say I'm pretty satisfied with it so far. You don't even own a Lightning device, so you have no idea whether it is a "crappy unreliable connector" or not. Thanks for displaying your ignorance and prejudice to the group though. But you really should tone down that languageŚ"crappy" is so close to "*****y".
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:49 PM   #171
anonymouslurker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
This is a discussion among an Engineer (me), and a Fan.
And as an engineer on the MFi program (me), who has intimate knowledge of what Lightning is/isn't, and what it can/can't do, I do have to say that you're quite misinformed on quite a few things.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 11:09 PM   #172
dfs
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Adapter

"The Lightning to 30-pin adapters actually target a very narrow audience; most people will simply never need one."

This so-called narrow audience consist of anybody who has purchased a dock, or any device of any kind, ranging from clock radios to sophisticated medical equivalent, that has thirty-pin connectivity, and who doesn't want to be put to the expense of replacing said device with a lightning-friendly equivalent (assuming that such a replacement becomes available). Seems to me that this is a fairly huge number of people. And we are obliged to pay Apple thirty-odd bucks for that adapter, which might be called a special "keep on using your stuff" tax.
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 11:16 PM   #173
repoman27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
This is a discussion among an Engineer (me), and a Fan.

To everybody here I suggest to read about http://www.theskepticsguide.org/reso...fallacies.aspx
repoman27 is an expert...
Thanks, I studied CE as an undergrad at UCSC back in the early 90's. I also took several logic classes along the way, although I wouldn't go so far as to qualify myself as an expert. I appreciate you acknowledging my strengths in that area though. It's nice to see an Android fan such as yourself making an effort to contribute to these forums.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 12:55 AM   #174
hchung
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
This is boring, repoman27

This is a discussion among an Engineer (me), and a Fan.

To everybody here I suggest to read about http://www.theskepticsguide.org/reso...fallacies.aspx
repoman27 is an expert...


FYI:
1-Wire as a cheap mp3 audio interface (1-wire is a multipurpose serial communication protocol similar to i2c),
1-Wire over USB is an overspec usage of the USB port/cable. 1-wire is not an USB Profile, its an re-purpose of the USB connector,
not t confuse with MTP neither i2c

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/Mp3/...datasheet.html
Oh man, I can't stop laughing.

I think you need to read up on 1-wire again. You're doing a pretty good job trolling. But man, you just hit me with pure comedy gold.

Seriously? 1-wire as an audio interface?
Do you know the bitrate for 1-Wire?
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 09:28 AM   #175
repoman27
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Join Date: May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfs View Post
"The Lightning to 30-pin adapters actually target a very narrow audience; most people will simply never need one."

This so-called narrow audience consist of anybody who has purchased a dock, or any device of any kind, ranging from clock radios to sophisticated medical equivalent, that has thirty-pin connectivity, and who doesn't want to be put to the expense of replacing said device with a lightning-friendly equivalent (assuming that such a replacement becomes available). Seems to me that this is a fairly huge number of people. And we are obliged to pay Apple thirty-odd bucks for that adapter, which might be called a special "keep on using your stuff" tax.
I believe the actual scope is much narrower than you describe.

If we start with, "Early adopters of Lightning that are also users of 30-pin accessories," we can eliminate right off the bat first time Apple device buyers and those who don't currently utilize 30-pin gear.

Next, we can further qualify accessories by excluding those that cannot be used even with an adapter, such as Mophie's Juice Pack or accessories that require video output. We can also omit accessories for which the desired functionality can be sufficiently achieved using other available interfaces such as USB, WiFi/AirPlay, Bluetooth/A2DP, or analog audio line-in. As time goes on, we can also eliminate more and more accessories that have Lightning equivalents priced such that buying an adapter may be the less desirable choice.

Finally, we can also exclude those folks who are content to use their 30-pin accessories with the the devices they actually bought them for and are not greatly inconvenienced by the inability to additionally use them with their new Lightning devices.

This leads me to believe that the target audience for the Lightning to 30-pin dock connector adapters is probably less than 5% of those who currently own Lightning devices.

In a prior post I restated the sentence you quoted, and qualified "need" as use cases such that making do without would result in a seriously diminished user experience. For those with older 30-pin only car integration kits or blood sugar/pressure meters, yep, you'll want an adapter. For those that only have the alarm clock dock that they got free when they opened a checking account, not so much.

It's not a "keep on using your stuff" tax, it's an "additionally make use of your old stuff with your new device" tax. This is where we start to get into the unique sense of entitlement Apple has engendered in their customer base by maintaining the 30-pin connector for so long and accessory compatibility across so many generations of devices.

tl;dr version: The market for adapters is better summarized as, "Those who have more than a passing interest in using an adaptable accessory which requires a 30-pin dock connection in order to provide the desired functionality with a Lightning device." While this group may number in the millions, it is highly unlikely that it includes more than 1 out of every 2 current Lightning device users. Therefore, the assertion that, "most people will simply never need one," is quite reasonable.

Last edited by repoman27; Feb 26, 2013 at 11:51 AM. Reason: added short version
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