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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:00 PM   #26
mtneer
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Originally Posted by Dave-Z View Post


In my opinion, Apple isn't responsible to reimburse the parents.

If you link your credit card to your iTunes account you're inviting its use. You wouldn't give your credit card to your child and send him/her into a mall. This is no different.
Yeah, it seems a stretch, I guess Apple just settled to avoid dragging it on.

But on the other side, I don't think any cashier in a mall would accept a credit card if a 5-year old happened to brandish one unsupervised. I guess Apple found itself to be that cashier in the virtual world. The password requirement solved that by requiring some kind of authentication.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:06 PM   #27
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So if you let a child drive a car and they wreck it you can take it back to the dealer for a refund? So sick of the lack of personal responsibility that's been a trend over the last decade. If you or your dependents screw up it's your fault, own up to it.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:12 PM   #28
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I think some of you guys and gals maybe be jumping the gun without giving it much thought.

There are parents out there that have multiple devices but share the same iTunes account on these same devices. This allows you to buy an app one time but it automatically installs on all devices depending on your settings. Buying an app in the app store requires a password before the purchase and this password is usually kept from the kids.

Now that we covered the bases, there are many free apps out there that have in app purchases available. Reading this article, it sounds like a kid can just go in some apps and purchase something without being prompted for a password using the default iTunes account. Guess what? That crap is NOT COOL and NOT THE PARENTS FAULT.

Settings should be put in place to prevent that from happening going forward. Disabling in-app purchases is a start but purchasing in-app should be the same as a normal purchase to begin with.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:14 PM   #29
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In the past MR users were literally complaining in the forums about how easy and manipulative it was of Apple NOT to require a password for IAPs prior to Apple requiring the password. What makes you think it wasn't just as simple for a CHILD to do the same thing? That has little to do with "bad parenting".

NOW...MR users are taking Apple's side and saying this is "bad parenting" when just a few years ago...tons of users were complaining about the exact same issue and demanding refunds for their iTunes accounts.

..Flip-flop MR...

Apple had an easy loophole...for adults AND children, they fixed it. Stop acting ridiculous.

Just read some of the WELCOME comments on one of the reference posts...not many 'bad parenting' comments there. iOS 4.3 Requires Password Reentry for In App Purchases

Last edited by somethingelsefl; Feb 25, 2013 at 07:30 PM.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:27 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by arn View Post
it's not as straightforward as that.

Many games were designed to take advantage of this fact by making the in-app-purchase deceptively easy to purchase, and it not being very clear that real money was being charged (since no password was required).

arn
Thanks for that Arn. It looks like nobody here makes mistakes

I had this experience with an app that my daughter was using. She ran up about $60 in cost on both my phone and my mothers phone. I went into the app to see how it was possible and found it to be very easy and deceptive. They used language to make it seem like the money was "play money" to be used in the game.

I contacted Apple and they promptly refunded our money. Days later, the password requirement option and confirmation popup became mandatory so it never happened again. I just assumed they did this for everyone who was affected so I was a bit surprised to see that it went to a lawsuit.

All this from a responsible parent of above average children.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weerez935 View Post
They probably thought people who could afford a 700$ phone or a 2000$ contract wouldn't have a problem with a .99$ app.
The problem wasn't the $0.99 stuff, it was the $10, $20, $30 in app purchases that were able to be purchased without any password or confirmation. These apps were deliberately using language to get children to click on these purchases.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by SqB View Post
Thanks for that Arn. It looks like nobody here makes mistakes

I had this experience with an app that my daughter was using. She ran up about $60 in cost on both my phone and my mothers phone. I went into the app to see how it was possible and found it to be very easy and deceptive. They used language to make it seem like the money was "play money" to be used in the game.

I contacted Apple and they promptly refunded our money. Days later, the password requirement option and confirmation popup became mandatory so it never happened again. I just assumed they did this for everyone who was affected so I was a bit surprised to see that it went to a lawsuit.

All this from a responsible parent of above average children.

----------



The problem wasn't the $0.99 stuff, it was the $10, $20, $30 in app purchases that were able to be purchased without any password or confirmation. These apps were deliberately using language to get children to click on these purchases.
This was a very common occurrence....though I had to laugh at your last line.... as if it could happen to your 'above average' children, the average child had no shot at all.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:32 PM   #32
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lol.. lots of childless people in here talking about how to properly parent a child...
love it.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:32 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ArtOfWarfare View Post
Interesting amount of blame being placed on parents.

I believe this is Apple's fault. They made the mistake of allowing IAP to be purchased without entering a password. The parent's unwittingly enter their passwords so their kids can download "free" apps (that + in the corner isn't at all intuitive. For several months I thought that meant an app was designed for iPhone and iPad.) The kids then go on to make IAPs without having to enter any passwords.

While I often agree that parents point their fingers in too many directions, this is one case where parents are in the right and the company they're suing is in the wrong.
Sorry, but thats BS. If you hand a payment method to a child, you shouldn't be surprised when they buy something. Thats the parents fault.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:37 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Radio View Post
Why back in my days we'd play till it got dark not on our devices.
because you didn't have devices..
sorry ol buddy, your past is in fact the past
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:38 PM   #35
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Whilst I don't necessarily agree with filing a lawsuit, as a parent the early days of IAPs were a minefield. Whenever you bought an app, for the next 5 or 10 minutes your kid could buy whatever they wanted without a password. My 2 year old managed to download a few apps this way but luckily only cheap ones. It was a poorly executed system, period.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:40 PM   #36
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Sorry, but thats BS. If you hand a payment method to a child, you shouldn't be surprised when they buy something. Thats the parents fault.
you're joking, right?.. look ->

Mommy: "oh, this looks like an acceptable app for my child"
Sally: "kewl.. i can get more sparkle clothes for my doll by pressing this button"
Developer: "hahaha.. sucka!"
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:42 PM   #37
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I assume those stating it's not Apple's fault and parenting fail also believe that Apple should pull apps that have porn or any other offensive material and/or insist it's rated appropriately.

Right?

Because it's all under the same umbrella.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:44 PM   #38
mantan
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Originally Posted by Windlasher View Post
Sorry, but thats BS. If you hand a payment method to a child, you shouldn't be surprised when they buy something. Thats the parents fault.
The IAP totally contradicted the ITunes purchasing model Apple had in place. You have to enter a password to download a free or $.99 app...yet you could rack up a hundred times that amount in the app without having to enter a password?

Apple knew it was a poorly conceived concept, which is why it was changed so quickly. Parents didn't think they were handing a 'payment method' to their kid because App purchases typically required a password.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windlasher View Post
Sorry, but thats BS. If you hand a payment method to a child, you shouldn't be surprised when they buy something. Thats the parents fault.
The phone by itself shouldn't be a payment method is the arguement. And it isn't now. It was before, but only in one specific instance which certain developers optimized for, in the hopes of tricking some kids into buying things.

These weren't "accidental" purchases on the part of many of the app developers, but carefully crafted in app buying guided experiences.

arn
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:50 PM   #40
you people smh
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So if you let a child drive a car and they wreck it you can take it back to the dealer for a refund? So sick of the lack of personal responsibility that's been a trend over the last decade. If you or your dependents screw up it's your fault, own up to it.
Exactly, because, i mean, clearly letting a 5 year old drive a car is on EXACTLY the same moral plane as saying "yes you can play dress-up dolly on my phone". Exactly the same thing.

Why don't all you nuts try this.

Exact same situation but replace "Apple" with "Samsung" or "Android"

Oooohhhh those evil companies are taking advantage of people. They are horrible blah blah blah...
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:50 PM   #41
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so does not one actually understand why a ton of games were recently made *free*? Nothing is actually free...either ads or in app purchases to support. I'm willing to bet that developers realize that if a game is *free* more people will buy, hence more kids doing in app purchases. It's really about developers taking advantage of the way in app purchases are processed more than anything else.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:51 PM   #42
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Just ban in-app purchases to begin with, all they do is create horrible play 2 win games! So many good games have been ruined by this model, most recently Real Racing 3 They killed that franchise with the pay 2 win model.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:52 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by arn View Post
it's not as straightforward as that.

Many games were designed to take advantage of this fact by making the in-app-purchase deceptively easy to purchase, and it not being very clear that real money was being charged (since no password was required).

arn
THANK YOU Arn...!

So many Apple fanatics that don't know what the case was about, but still trash parents, assuming Apple is incapable of any mistakes or wrongdoing.

Why do you think Apple settled???

This was a sleazy tactic by many game developers. Apple knew about it for a long time, profited from it, and then tried to sneak out of its responsibility.

This is good news.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by diazj3 View Post
THANK YOU Arn...!

So many Apple fanatics that don't know what the case was about, but still trash parents, assuming Apple is incapable of any mistakes or wrongdoing.

Why do you think Apple settled???

This was a sleazy tactic by many game developers. Apple knew about it for a long time, profited from it, and then tried to sneak out of its responsibility.

This is good news.
To some Apple is NEVER wrong.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:57 PM   #45
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If my youngster had fallen foul of these in-app purchases and racked up a bill of hundreds of dollars and Apple only offered me a credit note I'd be seriously pis5ed off!
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:04 PM   #46
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I suspect most, if not all, of the negative comments came from children, or people without any children.

My own daughter ran up $250 in charges in a single day, thinking that she was using in-game play money to buy virtual doll clothes and furniture.

She thought that, because for years my daughter used Android tablets to access popular online Flash based kid's games, with similar in-game "purchasing". Except with Android, she couldn't actually pay real money without my password.

Then I decided to let her use my iPad, since she had expressed an interest in Apple gear, and I thought, gee it's Apple, they won't screw up. I made sure it only had kid safe apps on it and let her have fun.

So when I first saw the charges show up on my credit card, I thought it had been compromised. After I realized it had come from the iPad, I emailed Apple to ask them to stop allowing more purchases. Mind you, I was resigned to paying for the past purchases.

To my surprise, Apple VOLUNTARILY offered to refund all those purchases immediately, saying this was a common problem with people not knowing about IAP controls (I didn't know you didn't need a password by default).

So yes, they knew they had done wrong, and they fixed it.

Heck, you don't even have to have children involved. Imagine if you'd loaned your iPad to a friend so they could play a cool game, and they charged hundreds of dollars of in-app purchases... all without them even knowing your password.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:10 PM   #47
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Another case where the posters on Apple's side apparently didn't read the article.

Or, if you did, and still say the complaints aren't valid, answer me this: Why did Apple change the way the software worked if it was just fine before?

Seems to me they looked at it and said "oh, yeah, this isn't working the way we wanted it to" and they changed it to a more logical system.

So, basically, if you're in here saying it was the parents fault, you're arguing against Apple themselves, who agreed that it should be changed and then changed it.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:10 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post
I think this is partially Apple's responsibility, since they weren't requesting a password when the in-app purchasing feature was first added, making it too easy for kids to make unauthorized purchases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arn View Post
it's not as straightforward as that.

Many games were designed to take advantage of this fact by making the in-app-purchase deceptively easy to purchase, and it not being very clear that real money was being charged (since no password was required).

arn
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtOfWarfare View Post
Interesting amount of blame being placed on parents.

I believe this is Apple's fault. They made the mistake of allowing IAP to be purchased without entering a password.
Exactly. I always thought that a password was required for a purchase. Seeing as it wasn't, parents really weren't to know that when they handed their child their iPhone with a bunch of games on it, they were also handing them an unlocked credit card with one click purchasing! Young kids tend to click on things that pop-up without even reading them, so I'd say many of these purchases were made quite innocently.

Quote:
(that + in the corner isn't at all intuitive. For several months I thought that meant an app was designed for iPhone and iPad.)
That is what it means… isn't it?
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:12 PM   #49
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I was hoping this was Apple settling the Lodsys thing.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:18 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dave-Z View Post
If you link your credit card to your iTunes account you're inviting its use. You wouldn't give your credit card to your child and send him/her into a mall.
No you wouldn't, and that's the whole point! Parents were doing the equivalent of this without even realising it.

Quote:
This is no different.
It's completely different! People link a credit card to their iTunes account (1) because Apple forces them to when they sign up (and most people wouldn't realise there is a way around this), and (2) to purchase music and/or apps. How does this in any way imply that if my child plays a game, they can use the game to make real credit card transactions?!
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